Do Catholics believe Protestants are going to hell?

[CentralFLJames]

So what about people who left the Catholic church after being a full member of her?
Are they formal (even though they defected) or informal (because they were baptized trinitarian or even re-baptized outside of the CC)?
Just out of personal interest in how you see that one…

Grace, mercy and peace will be with you, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

In Him,
Janet

Janet “once a Catholic always a Catholic”. By leaving the fullness of the Catholic Faith for one of the many seperated “faith communities” one has put themselves into a very deficient and grave condition. It is a break of communion in faith and a denial of the most fundamental and ancient catechistic profession of faith - the Creed. Lines 8-9 of the Apostles Creed indivisibly co-joins in one holistic sentence the relationship of the Holy Spirit to The Catholic Church: “I believe in the Holy Spirit, 9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,”. It is a break of the divine principal of unity (marriage of God’s two-way relationship with His people) to step outside of the formal Catholic Church to presume that the Holy Spirit must suffer to co-mingle in human institutions that are in tension and resistance to the fullness of truth. It is to be indifferent to the very nature of Christ’s Church as the Mystical Body of Christ (having one head as Jesus, many sanctified members of ministerial and universal priestly members and one divine soul of the Holy Spirit). It is grave matter who’s culpability depends on one’s conscious knowledge and interior disposition. But since most Catholics are catechized with a well formed conscience this is grave matter and it is quite dubious that such a soul can do so and remain in good grace sufficient for salvation. Temporary insanity? Only God can judge this mater but it is foolish and reckless for any Catholic to leave the church on an assumption of ignorance or mercy. If one finds comfort and defense from conscience in the notion of ignorance then one is being completely arbitrary as to which side of the coin that gravity works on by using it to divin the faith community one lands in. Pardon me for inserting my own personal sentiments here but its worse than dumb to leave the Catholic Church in favor of some other. It is arbitrary, reckless and spiritual suicide.

If you are in such a state of abandon - pray, pray, pray and then simply walk into a Catholic Church, go to confession to confess all your sins and you are just like the Prodigal’s Son (daughter) and are instantly back home.

James

 

[Major_Tom]

Strange question. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

Please – this is a sophomoric line of reasoning and a leading question with an assumed outcome intended to entrap. It is not sincere nor objective in nature.

Let’s reset. Your question is odd.

James

Did you miss my earlier post, or did you decide not to apologize? Sorry, I loathe double standards, and had to ask again…

 

[CentralFLJames]

Whoa, whoa, hold on a sec, pal. You absolutely read the poster ‘dz’ the riot act in post #52 for what you thought was a ‘personl attack’ and was quite irritated that she ‘knew your mind’. Now after one post, you judge me as not ‘sincere’? And asking ‘sophomoric and odd’ questions? Do you know my mind, sir? There was no sarcasm or ‘tone’ in my question. I hate double standards, and you just violated your own. According to your own standards, you should apologize.

Thank you for the lengthy response. I will review and comment back on the guts of your argument later…

When a leading question is formed with an embedded judgment its a rhetorical and leading question that can’t be answered without admitting to the fallacy of the question. This is a well known rhetorical method used in debate and is considered to be insincere. I will extend the benefit of the doubt that you may be only emulating a questioning style that you have encountered in debating forums that are more interested in “winning debates” without regard to gaining solutions or coming to correct outcomes. But its fair for me to assume that people say what the mean and mean what they say and so I can only go on what you say and write to be expressive of what you think. Putting ideas on paper (or the phosphor of the CRT) is giving us your mind. If you are not expressing yourself properly or discerning the implications of your own thoughts and words then you need to clarify yourself when these sorts of tensions arise. Are you saying that you misspoke your mind?

I don’t want to sidetrack this discussion and get out in the weeds on this sort of thing. If the truth of the matter escapes all the outward signs that you did not intend to be insincere or to entrap by rhetorical means and simply did not express your own thoughts adequately or understand the implications of your question then I can apologize for not discerning your expressive challenges in presenting your thoughts. But I can’t be held responsbile for associating your thoughts with what you write since that is exactly why we write - to share our thoughts. If one knows that they have an expressive challenge in getting thoughts to words then the best thing one sincerely interested in getting their answers resolved is to adapt a passive and neutral writing “voice” that is as objective as possible. Avoid leading questions that try to “paint” the other person into a corner through passive-aggressive progression. There is such as thing as an unfair and inappropriate question.

Just for your own future benefit consider my example: “Have you stopped beating your wife”?

Absent any other context the questioner is making an assertion that the other is a wife beater. This is an attack on character and puts the other on defense to defend his good name. It’s a question intended to tie up the other person with a prolonged speaking engagement. It can’t get to a simple yes or no. If the other says “yes” or “no” he admits he was a wife beater. So now the other is a victim to the question and must defend himself and be held hostage to his questioner. His questioner is really acting like a court persecutor who is really attempting through rhetoric to judge an accused and force him to occupy his productive time to a mere rhetorical attack against his character. Thus this form of question is unfair and is a trap that is intended to steal a persons time and to empower the questioner by controlling the agenda.It is generally unchristian and not even considered good-form by secular standards and no court in the country would permit it by an attorney confronting an accused since it tortures common sense and decorum.

I hope you can understand what I am saying and benefit from it.

Peace.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Sorry, I loathe double standards, and had to ask again…

Me too. Are you going to answer my prior questions?

1)Are you claiming that the Catholic Church is withholding vital information entrusted to it from some peoples???

2)Have you stopped beating your wife yet?



James

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Thank You Marsha for this scripture because this is exactly what I’m saying.People who believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus, could these be the ones whom Jesus claims he does not know?Catholics believe Jesus is the Catholic Church but he is not.He is the son of God.The body of Christ is not the Catholic church but rather those who are born of the Spirit.So if folks are worshipping the creation(Catholic Church) rather then the creator(Jesus) then do they really know who Jesus is,or rather does he know them?
People are saved by way of the Lamb of God(FAITH IN JESUS) and professing the name of Jesus as their Lord and savior and the repentance of sins is all one needs to receive salvation.Works can not earn a ticket to heaven.So if people worship their belief and raise it up in place of the lamb of God then then there will be people who say they did all kinds of work in his name but he’s not going to know them unless they are born of his Spirit which is the Holy Spirit and NOT the Catholic church.
Which brings us back to believing that salvation is only for the Catholic belief and the false doctrine being taught that Jesus is the Catholic church.
Faith without works is dead but works without Faith is burned up!

These texts apply to people who claim that all they have to do is “profess” or just “believe” and “once saved always saved”. These texts show that crying Lord, Lord (i.e. professing) isn’t enough obedience is necessary. The Church teaches exactly that, faith and obedience.

 

[Major_Tom]

Me too. Are you going to answer my prior questions?

1)Are you claiming that the Catholic Church is withholding vital information entrusted to it from some peoples???

No. Absolutely not. I’m not sure why you are asking, because my comments didn’t touch on that idea whatsoever. I asked for clarification of ongoing points.

2)Have you stopped beating your wife yet?



James

I really have no idea why you are asking. You’re suggesting that I’m intentionally asking sarcastic, provocative or misleading questions. Re-read my post: do you see any hint of sarcasm? I see none. You were the one who introduced the ‘tone’.

Having said that, I ask you to apologize. As I stated in my first response, you jumped all over a poster for ‘knowing your mind’, yet turn around and do the same to me based on one post (do I need to copy and paste your comments a third time?).

That is a double standard and I am calling you on it.

 

[Major_Tom]

When a leading question is formed with an embedded judgment its a rhetorical and leading question that can’t be answered without admitting to the fallacy of the question. This is a well known rhetorical method used in debate and is considered to be insincere. I will extend the benefit of the doubt that you may be only emulating a questioning style that you have encountered in debating forums that are more interested in “winning debates” without regard to gaining solutions or coming to correct outcomes. But its fair for me to assume that people say what the mean and mean what they say and so I can only go on what you say and write to be expressive of what you think. Putting ideas on paper (or the phosphor of the CRT) is giving us your mind. If you are not expressing yourself properly or discerning the implications of your own thoughts and words then you need to clarify yourself when these sorts of tensions arise. Are you saying that you misspoke your mind?

I don’t want to sidetrack this discussion and get out in the weeds on this sort of thing. If the truth of the matter escapes all the outward signs that you did not intend to be insincere or to entrap by rhetorical means and simply did not express your own thoughts adequately or understand the implications of your question then I can apologize for not discerning your expressive challenges in presenting your thoughts. But I can’t be held responsbile for associating your thoughts with what you write since that is exactly why we write - to share our thoughts. If one knows that they have an expressive challenge in getting thoughts to words then the best thing one sincerely interested in getting their answers resolved is to adapt a passive and neutral writing “voice” that is as objective as possible. Avoid leading questions that try to “paint” the other person into a corner through passive-aggressive progression. There is such as thing as an unfair and inappropriate question.

Just for your own future benefit consider my example: “Have you stopped beating your wife”?

Absent any other context the questioner is making an assertion that the other is a wife beater. This is an attack on character and puts the other on defense to defend his good name. It’s a question intended to tie up the other person with a prolonged speaking engagement. It can’t get to a simple yes or no. If the other says “yes” or “no” he admits he was a wife beater. So now the other is a victim to the question and must defend himself and be held hostage to his questioner. His questioner is really acting like a court persecutor who is really attempting through rhetoric to judge an accused and force him to occupy his productive time to a mere rhetorical attack against his character. Thus this form of question is unfair and is a trap that is intended to steal a persons time and to empower the questioner by controlling the agenda.It is generally unchristian and not even considered good-form by secular standards and no court in the country would permit it by an attorney confronting an accused since it tortures common sense and decorum.

I hope you can understand what I am saying and benefit from it.

Peace.

James

Wow, just re-read your post. You’re giving me to much credit! We don’t get paid to do this! We’re not in court and neither of us is on the witness stand!

It’s pretty simple. I read the comments and asked a question. To be clear, I’m not a super-debater who is laying the foundation of some rhetorical flourish that will culminate over my next ten posts.

I’ll repeat again: there was no sarcasm or arch tone in my question. I have seen several of them across these discussion boards (“Why does your God allow evil?”, etc.) and mine had none. Again, I believe you over-reacted. If you hadn’t made such a fuss when it occurred, I probably would have let it slide.

I won’t bring it up again, but I still think you should apologize. Your long response appears to skirt the issue.

More comment on the guts of the issue later…

 

[Janet1983]

James,

I must confess that I would have never expected something that harsh as most people here tend to not express their views that directly.
I am however thankful for you telling me what you think on this topic…

Janet “once a Catholic always a Catholic”. By leaving the fullness of the Catholic Faith for one of the many seperated “faith communities” one has put themselves into a very deficient and grave condition.

Well I know that the Catholic Church does not see me as an ex-Catholic but rather as a Catholic who does not practice the faith.
From your words I gather that you consider this a grave matter and thereby (as I am doing this out of my free will and with full consciousness of the fact) a mortal sin. According to this I presume that you would consider me going to hell in case of me passing away without prior reconciliation with the Church.
Am I correct in that assumption?

It is a break of communion in faith and a denial of the most fundamental and ancient catechistic profession of faith - the Creed. Lines 8-9 of the Apostles Creed indivisibly co-joins in one holistic sentence the relationship of the Holy Spirit to The Catholic Church: “I believe in the Holy Spirit, 9. the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,”. It is a break of the divine principal of unity (marriage of God’s two-way relationship with His people) to step outside of the formal Catholic Church to presume that the Holy Spirit must suffer to co-mingle in human institutions that are in tension and resistance to the fullness of truth.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit is not bound by the Catholic Church and that He can be where He pleases. Having said that I do believe myself to be part of the universal Church of all believers in the Lord and in communion with all saints (believers) past and present.
I guess it is simply a matter of definition in this case.

It is to be indifferent to the very nature of Christ’s Church as the Mystical Body of Christ (having one head as Jesus, many sanctified members of ministerial and universal priestly members and one divine soul of the Holy Spirit). It is grave matter who’s culpability depends on one’s conscious knowledge and interior disposition. But since most Catholics are catechized with a well formed conscience this is grave matter and it is quite dubious that such a soul can do so and remain in good grace sufficient for salvation.

Yes, I have been catechized in the Catholic Church. I grew up in a predominantly Catholic area, went to a Catholic kindergarten (3 years in Germany) and a Catholic elementary school. After that I went to a public middle school / high school instead of the Catholic one because the public school had bilingual classes.
I still had Catholic religious education classes and a weekly Mass at school until I graduated after 13th grade. I spend 10 months in a nunnery as a guest and I was an altar server until the age of 23. I was also head altar server for a while, educated the new ones in how to behave (and I was strict and they did brilliantly) and I did lead confirmation classes when I was 17 (the priest was a friend of mine and he knew about my capabilities).
I guess I could consider that very much catechized, especially for German standards.
I know one thing for sure: I am fully aware of my actions, but I do not believe my soul to be endangered of losing my salvation.

Temporary insanity? Only God can judge this mater but it is foolish and reckless for any Catholic to leave the church on an assumption of ignorance or mercy. If one finds comfort and defense from conscience in the notion of ignorance then one is being completely arbitrary as to which side of the coin that gravity works on by using it to divin the faith community one lands in.

I would not plead insanity. I would not plead ignorance either as I was informed about the Catholic Church and I simply choose to disbelief. And now that you have pointed it out I guess I surely cannot plead ignorance about the stands of the Catholic Church.
By the way, is there any official material that does support your analysis of my situation?

Pardon me for inserting my own personal sentiments here but its worse than dumb to leave the Catholic Church in favor of some other. It is arbitrary, reckless and spiritual suicide.

Well I accept you personal opinion as I know you will respect mine. Thank you for being so open with me. I know it takes more courage to say something that might upset people, than being soft and politically correct.

If you are in such a state of abandon - pray, pray, pray and then simply walk into a Catholic Church, go to confession to confess all your sins and you are just like the Prodigal’s Son (daughter) and are instantly back home.

Thank you but I will decline that offer. I do pray often and intensely as we are told to pray without ceasing.
I thank the Lord for honest people like you who speak their mind and don’t hold back when things get tough. I wish there were more people out there who have the courage to stand up for what they believe. If there were we would not have the problem of gay marriage (especially like the one in DC right now) or abortion…

To Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

In Him,
Janet

 

[paul_c]

Janet 1983,
If you were so correctly catechized, what caused you to leave the Church? If you don’t mind my asking?

 

[Janet1983]

Janet 1983,
If you were so correctly catechized, what caused you to leave the Church? If you don’t mind my asking?

An attempt to explain the Catholic faith to my husband and looking into the faith from his perspective was just the beginning. The more I learned the further away I got (and I used to be the religion geek in school and could cite the Bible to support Catholic doctrine off of the top of my head at any time of day).
Part of it might also be that my employer at the time (the German army) does not have an established chaplaincy corps. All they have is local parish priest serving in a double function, basically as reservists. (To explain that would lead to far I think.)
Due to that I did have a little time of spiritual abstinence during my initial training and when I started dating my husband I was ready to go to the Protestant service with him (even though I dragged him to mass in my hometown every time we were there).
It was a long process for me and it was rather complicated and I will leave it at that. I do not wish to seem like I was trying to convert anybody.

God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that His way may be known on the earth, His salvation among all nations.

In Him,
Janet

 

[paul_c]

An attempt to explain the Catholic faith to my husband and looking into the faith from his perspective was just the beginning. The more I learned the further away I got (and I used to be the religion geek in school and could cite the Bible to support Catholic doctrine off of the top of my head at any time of day).
Part of it might also be that my employer at the time (the German army) does not have an established chaplaincy corps. All they have is local parish priest serving in a double function, basically as reservists. (To explain that would lead to far I think.)
Due to that I did have a little time of spiritual abstinence during my initial training and when I started dating my husband I was ready to go to the Protestant service with him (even though I dragged him to mass in my hometown every time we were there).
It was a long process for me and it was rather complicated and I will leave it at that. I do not wish to seem like I was trying to convert anybody.

God be gracious to us and bless us, and cause His face to shine upon us, that His way may be known on the earth, His salvation among all nations.

In Him,
Janet

So why are you now on Catholic Answers Forum? Are you looking for anwers or givng them? Or maybe you just felt drawn here for no understandable reason. I’m just curious about your motivations, given what you’ve said here. I sense that part of you wants to come back despite your protestations and the influence of your husband. maybe I’m wrong. And you can treat this as rhetorical. You’re the one who needs to know the answer, not us…

 

[Janet1983]

So why are you now on Catholic Answers Forum? Are you looking for anwers or givng them? Or maybe you just felt drawn here for no understandable reason. I’m just curious about your motivations, given what you’ve said here. I sense that part of you wants to come back despite your protestations and the influence of your husband. maybe I’m wrong. And you can treat this as rhetorical. You’re the one who needs to know the answer, not us…

Well I actually like talking about spiritual things. As already remarked by other posters in other threads you cannot find a completely open discussion in other forums that are specifically Protestant because the anti-Catholic sentiment is simply very strong on many.
I prefer a balanced theological discussion and I appreciate that I am being accepted here. I am very intrigued to see the viewpoints of many Catholics and in some cases I even contribute to specific Catholic issues by virtue of my experience in the Catholic world.
I am saddened by the fact that I see people get banned on a regular basis, but I also know that I am a mere guest here and that I should behave in a way that is stating my opinion, being open to new things, all the while reducing offensive terms and thought processes to a minimum.
As a non-Catholic Christian on a Catholic board I am also representing Protestantism and I hope that my personal way of viewing things and reacting to controversies is showing that being a Protestant does not mean being anti-Catholic.
May we all succeed in leaving the battlefield to embrace each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord because of our love for Him.

May the LORD answer you in the day of trouble. May the name of the God of Jacob set you securely on high. May He send you help from the sanctuary and support you from Zion. May He grant you your heart’s desire and fulfill all your counsel. We will sing for joy over your victory, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners. May the LORD fulfill all your petitions.

In Him,
Janet

 

[paul_c]

Well I actually like talking about spiritual things. As already remarked by other posters in other threads you cannot find a completely open discussion in other forums that are specifically Protestant because the anti-Catholic sentiment is simply very strong on many.
I prefer a balanced theological discussion and I appreciate that I am being accepted here. I am very intrigued to see the viewpoints of many Catholics and in some cases I even contribute to specific Catholic issues by virtue of my experience in the Catholic world.
I am saddened by the fact that I see people get banned on a regular basis, but I also know that I am a mere guest here and that I should behave in a way that is stating my opinion, being open to new things, all the while reducing offensive terms and thought processes to a minimum.
As a non-Catholic Christian on a Catholic board I am also representing Protestantism and I hope that my personal way of viewing things and reacting to controversies is showing that being a Protestant does not mean being anti-Catholic.
May we all succeed in leaving the battlefield to embrace each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord because of our love for Him.

May the LORD answer you in the day of trouble. May the name of the God of Jacob set you securely on high. May He send you help from the sanctuary and support you from Zion. May He grant you your heart’s desire and fulfill all your counsel. We will sing for joy over your victory, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners. May the LORD fulfill all your petitions.

In Him,
Janet

The reason the discourse can happen at a high level, free of vitriole is because the site is policed and offenders banned.

Frankly, it is extremely important that non-Catholic Christians come on the apologetic threads because the Catholics are generally in agreement, so the threads are short if no one brings other views. I learn more about the Catholic faith if there are desenting opinions, both from my own research to find the Catholic answer and also from the thoughts that others bring to the table. Most non-Catholics don’t stay that way long here though. Either they see the truth in Catholicism and convert or they become frustrated by their inability to convert the Catholics and leave. Few are truly in it just for the intellectual discussion, but there are some that do.

 

[Janet1983]

The reason the discourse can happen at a high level, free of vitriole is because the site is policed and offenders banned.

Frankly, it is extremely important that non-Catholic Christians come on the apologetic threads because the Catholics are generally in agreement, so the threads are short if no one brings other views. I learn more about the Catholic faith if there are desenting opinions, both from my own research to find the Catholic answer and also from the thoughts that others bring to the table. Most non-Catholics don’t stay that way long here though. Either they see the truth in Catholicism and convert or they become frustrated by their inability to convert the Catholics and leave. Few are truly in it just for the intellectual discussion, but there are some that do.

True. It sure helps the topics on a bit. Without someone asking questions and debating neither side would get the chance to lay out their faith for comparison, teaching, in agreement and in disagreement.
I nearly got 2 1/2 years under my belt, but I’ve had very intense phases and very inattentive ones where I was busy doing other things. I still enjoy coming back here after a while and finding the discussions going and fruitful as ever.
My latest change in attitude a few months ago did help me immensely too. I am not on the battlefield or in a crusade for Protestantism. I am here to engage in lively discussion with intellectual value. God helped me to not become easily insulted or upset about comments directed to me (which as you know might happen as texts can usually be laid out to the positive or the negative, a deficiency of every message board).
I am just impressed by the number of good and witty “sparring partners” for intellectual debates are on here.

Let’s close this side discussion with something uplifting…
[BIBLEDRB]Jude 1:20-21[/BIBLEDRB]

In Him,
Janet

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

This right here is the problem.Jesus Christ is the son of God.Now we know through scripture Jesus is the way to eternal life.[SIGN]There are Catholics that have reached the ideal based upon the above post that if your not Catholic then you have no part of Jesus because Jesus is the Catholic Church.T[/SIGN]his is not in the scriptures.The scripture say all who profess Jesus as their Lord and savior will receive the Holy Spirit.That is a promise in the word of God,a promise of the Holy Spirit to all the believers.
I’m not Catholic,never stepped foot inside a Catholic Church and I am very much a part of the body of Christ because his Spirit lives in me.
I agree with you that God is the only one who can sat in judgement of a man because he searches the heart.For those who believe that the Catholic Church is Jesus then tell me"How well do the Catholics know their savior and I’m speaking of Jesus and not the Church he set up but Jesus himself that dwells in the hearts of all who believe.“All Who Believe”
Somewhere down the line somebody,somehow has misused their position and alot of people have been led astray from the truth.The sad part of this is if some believe Jesus is the Catholic church then are they really going to find the true and only way to heaven,are they ever going to have a personal relationship with the Lord?
Besides this,there is no scripture saying Jesus is the Catholic Church,unless scripture is twisted to fit.There will be false prophets that lead many astray.Now this is in scripture and this is most certainly true.False prophets will lead many to hell because they have taught false doctrine causing people to become deaf and blind,ears that don’t hear and eyes that can’t see that Jesus Christ is much,much more and limiting him to the Catholic belief as if Jesus is only there for those who are Catholic.This is like the Pharisees who thought God was only there for the Jews.And we all know that God is here for us all and this is why he sent his son Jesus to die for the sins of all.The Jews don’t like the ideal of sharing God and neither do the Catholics. So if the Catholics think Jesus is the Catholic Church,he is in the Catholic Church,or rather his Spirit but guess what his Spirit is in other churches that profess the name of Jesus.

So, just because you have Catholics who do not understand the teaching of the Pope or the church why blame the Pope or church?/??

I have had protestants who told me I am not born again, that I am going to hell. Etc. But I do not blame the inocent Protestants for the ignorant ones. The Protestant CHurch never said this the protestatant people did.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James,

I must confess that I would have never expected something that harsh as most people here tend to not express their views that directly.
I am however thankful for you telling me what you think on this topic…

Harsh? With the exception of one final personal question I have been giving you the Catechism teaching. You are just looking for affirmation in your error and not getting it are equating dis-affirmation with being harsh. I have not personally judged you and have stated here that only God can determine if you are of rational mind and culpable. If you consciously rejected the teachings after believing them then your position is very weak to Catholic belief and your final spiritual disposition is “dubious”. This is the Catholic teaching. Only God can close the gap in what exists as an objective condition of rejection of Christ viz His authorized representative, The Catholic Church, and her teachings vice your state of mind and soul. Did you really except to get platitudes when you asked me my thoughts on this? I can’t confirm you in what I know to be error since that would make me complicit in sin that is of grave matter. I am not about to co-sign on a note to eternal damnation. Sorry.

You know the catechism. Why do you think you are any different than any other apostate to the Catholic Faith who has renounced her faith? Do you think you have a special exemption? You seem to be rejecting that there is such a thing as objective truth except in the certainty that there is no objective truth. That’s a circular contradiction in logic.

Well I know that the Catholic Church does not see me as an ex-Catholic but rather as a Catholic who does not practice the faith.
From your words I gather that you consider this a grave matter and thereby (as I am doing this out of my free will and with full consciousness of the fact) a mortal sin. According to this I presume that you would consider me going to hell in case of me passing away without prior reconciliation with the Church.
Am I correct in that assumption?

I consider it grave matter because that is what the Catholic Church teaches and as “the pillar and foundation of truth” I trust the Church.

I won’t presume to know that you are condemned to hell if you die unrepentant but as a fellow Catholic I would be worried a lot for your eternal soul and pray for you a lot. You count on that. The historical Church has always taught that outside the church there is no salvation with the caveat that those who are informal members of the Church can possibly be saved through faults of ignorance. But since you once believed then you are held to much higher standard unless you have had some traumatic event or forceful influence in your life that has swayed you against an adequately formed conscience and balanced reason.

Since you asked, from the knowledge you gave me about yourself I would not want to be in your shoes when your judgement comes. But what I think is not relevant to your eternal salvation. What is relevant is what God thinks and what YOU decide to do about your own soul. We are all accountable to our own souls and for those they lead. By being here at CAF among Catholics we have for better or worse an occasion for influence and leadership for helping you do the right thing or to persist in the wrong thing. I will not confirm you in what I know to be error nor pander just so you can feel more secure in your decisions. That would be the worst harm I could do to you. And each of these encounters we all have with each other are a permanent part of our accounting to God. I can only do my best using what means I have to sway you to the truth as I know it or to not do greater harm. But I am required to speak out and to attempt to teach the truth. Every human soul we interact with is an occasion for doing good or evil. I can see why monastic life was so popular in the early church since dealing with fellow humans is very hard and very risky but also very opportune.

I hope I am not doing more harm than good and if the former God will forgive.

[continue]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[from prior]

I do believe that the Holy Spirit is not bound by the Catholic Church and that He can be where He pleases. Having said that I do believe myself to be part of the universal Church of all believers in the Lord and in communion with all saints (believers) past and present.
I guess it is simply a matter of definition in this case.

I belive what the Catholic Church teaches as evidenced by the scriptures and handed down tradition. Namely, The Holy Spirit resides in all who are baptised into Christ and who remain in a state of grace by avoiding occasions of grave sin. That said, common sense dictates that apart from the protection of The Church (the sacraments and good example) is very hard for anyone to not gravely sin in a world that is calling us hourly to sin via TV, magazine, books, photos, advertising and entrapment of every kind. Everyone works to find complacency in numbers - bringing even their friends down to a basement of sin thinking “if they do such and such then I can do it too”. Just because the Protestants left the church and made rebellion against ecclesial authority popular and accepted (and expected) in secular society does not make it right by numbers. 100’s of millions of those who call themselves Christian are at risk of going to hell. There is no salvation through the power of strong belief in salvation. Salvation is independent of work of the lips (a professed faith). Not even following a civil moral code is sufficient. One must have grace and the supernatural virtues of charity (love of God and Neighbor). One must be obedient to ALL of Christ’s teachings. One MUST DEMONSTRATE their faith through real actions - that is, supernatural works given by God.

Only the Catholic Church as the original apostolic faith was ever given the promise of the Holy Spirit and the truth of His teachings. Clearly, the hydra of Protestantism with its legions of heads and conflicted teachings is an embodiment of some truth co-mixed with error. That said some of members in these faith communities retain their grace and are 'informal" Catholics and will be saved - but not all (nor will all “cultural Catholics”).

Yes, I have been catechized in the Catholic Church.
…
I am fully aware of my actions, but I do not believe my soul to be endangered of losing my salvation.
…
I would not plead insanity. I would not plead ignorance either as I was informed about the Catholic Church and I simply choose to disbelief. And now that you have pointed it out I guess I surely cannot plead ignorance about the stands of the Catholic Church.
By the way, is there any official material that does support your analysis of my situation?

Then you have rejected The Catholic Church and must resolve it with God and accept His Judgement with the foreknowledge that you knew at one time this rejection is grave matter. All choices have eternal consequences. Lucifer had perfect knowledge with his full angelic intellect yet he chose to reject God’s will by his “non servium” (I will not serve). God did not show mercy to Lucifer since he had angelic intelligence and was held to the highest standard. You have been trained to the full truth and have rejected it out of a latent disbelief. Mercy is only possibly if one desires to turn away from error and repent. I suggest you go talk to God about that since we have told you that you are most definately in the arena of grave matter and at considerable risk of being damned by your own fault and by your own choices.

I thank the Lord for honest people like you who speak their mind and don’t hold back when things get tough…

In reviewing some of your admissions here it sounds to me like you broke from the faith around the time you were being courted by your husband. I am sorry to say but you may have chosen to follow the lead of your husband over the lead of your original Church and Faith. Where you married in the Catholic Church? This pattern of Catholic women leaving the faith for a mate has sadly been the downfall of many Catholic women who have abandoned their faith in mixed faith marriages and subordinated their beliefs to take on those of their husbands (which are very risky to the soul). A strong human need for love and affinity can cloud reason - which might mitigate some culpability in leaving the Church. Don’t cling to this idea but it is a factor that God will take into his all seeing consideration.

Know that the saints have told us that many souls are punished for choosing the mere creature or created things over the Creator. Protestantism with its legions of denominational options and lax Martial standards (most all permitting divorce remarriages and mixed faith marriages) is thus a compelling lure. There is a large number of “flavors” for those who want to pick and choose what they personally want to believe and find a denomination that will accommodate anything imaginable or desired.

James

 

[rinnie]

Janet I am comming in here late, so I do not know all that is going on. Just caught a little in the end. But I just want to say one thing. No matter what you can always come back to the faith.

THe way I understand you have strayed from it. But there is nothing you can do, or have done that would keep your from the Church.

Scripture tells us God will leave the whole flock of sheep to go find the lost sheep. Think about it. If you lose 20. It is not a big deal. And if someone gives you 20 it would not make you as happy as finding the 20 you lost. Thats how God feels. If one person is lost from his Church he wants them back. It would make him so happy. Thats how much he loves you.

I will pray for you, that you can gain grace to return to the Flock! If you are in a cross roads in your life just pray for Grace. God will do the rest.

 

[Janet1983]

You are just looking for affirmation in your error and not getting it are equating dis-affirmation with being harsh. I have not personally judged you and have stated here that only God can determine if you are of rational mind and culpable.

Did you really except to get platitudes when you asked me my thoughts on this?

No I did not expect to get platitudes, but that is more or less what I have been getting up until now. I was expecting to find someone clearing up the smoke and the mirrors and telling me the teaching of the church. That is why I thanked you for your comment. I am not trying to accuse you of anything.

I can’t confirm you in what I know to be error since that would make me complicit in sin that is of grave matter. I am not about to co-sign on a note to eternal damnation. Sorry.

I understand that.

You know the catechism. Why do you think you are any different than any other apostate to the Catholic Faith who has renounced her faith?

I did not renounce my faith, I still believe in Jesus Christ and I am His slave. He bought me with a price. Please help me refresh my memory. I was not particularly interested in finding out about what you call apostasy when I was still within the church. Where do I find the areas that deal with apostates?

Do you think you have a special exemption?

No. But I actually do believe that I am a slave of the Lord and that He makes me His child. He is not going to forsake me and I will continue to serve Him.

100’s of millions of those who call themselves Christian are at risk of going to hell. There is no salvation through the power of strong belief in salvation.

Of course God does not go by popular vote. Only few will eventually go to Heaven and I set out to be one of those.

Salvation is independent of work of the lips (a professed faith). Not even following a civil moral code is sufficient. One must have grace and the supernatural virtues of charity (love of God and Neighbor). One must be obedient to ALL of Christ’s teachings. One MUST DEMONSTRATE their faith through real actions - that is, supernatural works given by God.

Well it does say in the Bible that we cannot please God if we are in the flesh and without faith.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 8:8[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 11:6[/BIBLEDRB]

Then you have rejected The Catholic Church and must resolve it with God and accept His Judgement with the foreknowledge that you knew at one time this rejection is grave matter. All choices have eternal consequences. Lucifer had perfect knowledge with his full angelic intellect yet he chose to reject God’s will by his “non servium” (I will not serve). God did not show mercy to Lucifer since he had angelic intelligence and was held to the highest standard. You have been trained to the full truth and have rejected it out of a latent disbelief. Mercy is only possibly if one desires to turn away from error and repent. I suggest you go talk to God about that since we have told you that you are most definately in the arena of grave matter and at considerable risk of being damned by your own fault and by your own choices.

Yes I have been trained and yes I rejected the Catholic Church. I do not believe that I have rejected the Lord however and I am striving to please Him and Him alone.

In reviewing some of your admissions here it sounds to me like you broke from the faith around the time you were being courted by your husband. I am sorry to say but you may have chosen to follow the lead of your husband over the lead of your original Church and Faith. Where you married in the Catholic Church? This pattern of Catholic women leaving the faith for a mate has sadly been the downfall of many Catholic women who have abandoned their faith in mixed faith marriages and subordinated their beliefs to take on those of their husbands (which are very risky to the soul). A strong human need for love and affinity can cloud reason - which might mitigate some culpability in leaving the Church. Don’t cling to this idea but it is a factor that God will take into his all seeing consideration.

I do not cling to this idea. I rest assured that God gave me this partner to enable me to become more like Jesus Christ and to be obedient to Him.

Know that the saints have told us that many souls are punished for choosing the mere creature or created things over the Creator.

That is an interesting thought and true at that, but what makes you think that I did that?

The LORD bless you, and keep you;
The LORD make His face shine on you, and be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance on you, and give you peace.

Your sister in Christ,
Janet

 

[Brian_Culliton]

Janet I am comming in here late, so I do not know all that is going on. Just caught a little in the end. But I just want to say one thing. No matter what you can always come back to the faith.

THe way I understand you have strayed from it. But there is nothing you can do, or have done that would keep your from the Church.

Scripture tells us God will leave the whole flock of sheep to go find the lost sheep. Think about it. If you lose 20. It is not a big deal. And if someone gives you 20 it would not make you as happy as finding the 20 you lost. Thats how God feels. If one person is lost from his Church he wants them back. It would make him so happy. Thats how much he loves you.

I will pray for you, that you can gain grace to return to the Flock! If you are in a cross roads in your life just pray for Grace. God will do the rest.

But what if the Catholic Church teaches error? God will not lead someone who seeks Him to a church that teaches error. God will lead people to the truth not a denomination. Getting to know God is a process that takes time. You cannot expect people to take some classes and then accept all the Catholic doctrines as truth.

The bottom line is this; your church does not allow non-Catholic Christians to participate in communion because you do not accept them as members of what you believe to be Christ’s church. So I wish you would just say that non Catholic Christians are not saved, because that is what is displayed in your religion even though you might not say it. And it really makes no difference to Christians what you think of our salvation since you obviously do not understand it and have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Just though I would throw in my 2cents.