Do Catholics know the real Jesus?

[MrS]

ditto

 

[Sword_Brethren]

I will stay here… so that your souls ay be saved.

It is good that you will stay here because then maybe you will learn about the real Jesus and then be able to be with Him forever in Heaven.

 

[JRKH]

I wonder if this thread should be closed. I see where it is headed. There are some brilliant people out here giving excellent rebuttal. Unfortunately, it is classic attack on the beautiful faith of the Catholic Church. Misconception after misconception fired at us, and the OP has no desire to listen to our responses, only a desire to reload their gun.

I see no point at this time in closing the thread. It would only re-enforce this person’s negative attitude. This would only serve to create one more person out there hating the wrong church. We would do better (at least for now) to continue responding in charity to the false claims and try to be inclusive of this persons correct beliefs.
Reenforce the positive and correct the negative.

Peace
James

 

[Gamera]

I followed the link you give as a “source,” JehuandGod. It’s an anonymous website – no name of the author, no statement of their credentials, no mention of their church affiliation or other connections. Why do you trust it?

The problem you face by cutting and pasting is that we’ve heard all those claims before, and we know the Biblical defense for Catholicism against the manmade traditions of Protestantism. So whenever you cut-and-paste a claim from that website and we counter it, you’ve instantly run out of answers and have to skip on to something else. Unless you know the Scriptures for yourself, and can argue in your own words, you’re going to be stuck unprepared trying to persuade about a dozen Catholics who know our Bibles inside and out.

Read the Bible for yourself. Don’t trust that anonymous website to tell you what the Bible “really” says. And to learn what Catholics believe, ask some Catholics (like us!) – don’t trust some anonymous website which, as we’ve shown, is wildly inaccurate about what we believe.

 

[dranzal]

JehuandGod, Welcome!

**It takes courage to venture into another’s “camp” to share your faith. For that, I commend you. **

**I must warn you, however, that you’ll find the regulars of this forum to be very knowledgeable. They know their Catholic faith is fully supported both by the Bible and the Early Church Fathers. **

As a Christian, I appreciate that you are sincere when you say you want to share your faith with us.

I hope you will be open-minded enough to consider the points we make…to consider the possibility that some of the (anti Catholic) propoganda you’ve been taught may be erroneous.

**Again, you are most welcome here. **

 

[JRKH]

If and when he does though he generally cut-and-pastes the observations from another website or forum. Based on his answers I don’t really think he even understands the information he is posting.

I also hope he stays around. He is young and on fire for the Lord. A beautiful thing that. He is just misdirected is all.

As to the cut and paste, we all have are favorite sources for things and we tend to quote them liberally, or at least paraphrase them. It is only human nature not to want to retype something we believe is already well expressed. I don’t hold this against him.

The fact is that he is young and he is just starting out on a long journey. His training is incomplete. Who knows what avenues the HS will lead him down. I just hope that he will read the various posts and, if not convinced at least be curious enough to begin a real questioning.
Alex is at a delicate point and the last thing we should want to do is frustrate him and drive him deeper into the “fundementalist” camp.
I like him - reminds me of me once upon a time.

Peace
James

 

[heisenburg]

Be Careful in calling him “young”.

21 isn’t all that young for most. I’ve seen teenagers in here on both sides of the reformation isle that were very eloquent and well informed.

I am only 30, since this isn’t too terribly much older, am I also to be frowned upon?

Remember it isn’t how old you are that determines wisdom, but how well you listen, learn and apply. Something I’ve seen 12 year olds better at than some 60 year olds

Just a reminder…

And no, I don;t think this thread should be closed… Let him vent his concerns, and we should respond IN CHARITY. No better way to show the love of Christ and his Church than to display love over discontent and ridicule.

Alex…
Same for you… Post in charity. You can have all the complaints in the world… Just post in love.

In Christ

 

[Mannyfit75]

I will stay here… so that your souls ay be saved.

We are saved. Thank God.

Catholics believe that Mary is sacred and holy. They have statues of Mary in their churches, even though this is against God’s commandment. Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…” They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father. Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us. Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

**For of all, Catholics do not worship images. Icons or statues are used as a focusing your attention on a saint, and how they live their lives in accordance to the way Jesus taught us.

Let me point that in 1 Tim Chapter 2 verse 5 it says:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be made for all men for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way; this is good and it is acceptible in the sight of our God our Savior.

We don’t worship Mary or the saints. Rather, we ask them to join us in prayer much like me asking you to pray for me.

Mary and Holy because God made her Holy. She is not Holy because of her own doing. She is holy because of God’s grace.**

Without a doubt Mary was a blessed woman, but she was not perfect. Catholics believe that Mary never sinned. Again, this is not supported by any Scripture. Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” There is only one person that never sinned, and that person is Jesus. Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.” 1 John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” 1 Peter 2:22 “‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’”

Are infants sinful, or how about the mentally impaired? Neither one have the a properly form conscious to sin. To know what sin is, you must know it. Mary is without sin because of the merits of God. God preserved his mother from sin. It would be a complete insult to God if Mary remain a sinner before and after the birth of her son. For God abhors sin, and he see fit that the Mother of God be clean. For the flesh of Jesus comes from Mary. If you say, Mary sinned. Then Jesus’ flesh is unclean.

 

[sodak]

That is certainly true. But he’s young. I’m regretting the “tsk, tsk, tsk” tone I took with him and commend others for their patience and charity. Fruits of the spirit, that.

JehuandGod – my apologies.

Yes, but these kinds of posters get pretty tiring. I’m amazed at the stamina of the regular “old timer” members here. I’m going to start a spreadsheet with references to the many different topics that I see discussed so that I don’t have to go and “re-find” them all the time.

I look at these drive-by’s, and just in the last month or two, we’ve had xFrodoBagginsx, WhatIsTheTruth, and now JehuandGod - just off the top of my head. They exhibit the same tendencies - drop off some quotes, and refuse to answer questions. It makes me wonder if they are truly youngsters who just got “lit on fire” by some preacher without any adequate preparation, or if the demonic is behind this, distracting the people on this board from another, more important battle.

It really makes me wonder.

 

[estesbob]

I also hope he stays around. He is young and on fire for the Lord. A beautiful thing that. He is just misdirected is all.

I hope he sticks around too. Like I said before I beleive the Spirit sent him here learn the truth. I would like to know what he thinks not what he can cut and paste.

 

[Gamera]

Be Careful in calling him “young”.

21 isn’t all that young for most. I’ve seen teenagers in here on both sides of the reformation isle that were very eloquent and well informed.

I am only 30, since this isn’t too terribly much older, am I also to be frowned upon?

Remember it isn’t how old you are that determines wisdom, but how well you listen, learn and apply. Something I’ve seen 12 year olds better at than some 60 year olds

"People say ‘older and wiser,’ but it isn’t true. By the time you’re 25, you’re as smart as you’re ever going to get.’ – Andy Rooney (paraphrase).

 

[Mannyfit75]

They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus. Matthew 13:55-56 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Mark 3:31 “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.” Matthew 12:46 “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.” Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives. The following verses make a clear distinction between spiritual and blood brothers: Luke 8:19-21 “Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.’ He replied, ‘My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.’” Jesus’ spiritual brothers are the ones who hear God’s word and put it into practice. Catholics also believe that Jesus used the word “brethen” or “brothers” when referring to His disciples. This is true in some cases, but in the following verses there is a definite distinction between Jesus’ brothes and His disciples. John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” John 7:3 “His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.”

**You are wrong again. Big time. There is no Hebrew or Aramaic word for cousins, so the Scripture writers write brothers and sisters. We also know very clear that Mary had no other son. This is clearly show in the Gospel of Luke Chapter 2 verse 41-52.

In this passage Jesus, (who is twelve), is with his mother and father, Joseph. There are no mention of any other brothers or sisters. The only reference is the relatives of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph where the Gospel states, "they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquintances. kinsfolks are cousins, and acquintances are friend.

So no. Mary had no other children. Then who are the brothers and sisters of the Lord then?

It is best to start by looking at St. John 19, 25. There it is evident that the Virgin Mary had an older sister whose name was also Mary: “Meanwhile, standing near the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

Turning next to the Gospel of St. Mark 15, 40, speaking on the same point: “There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger (Less) and of Joses (Joseph), and Salome.” Who is this “Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses?” Of the Marys mentioned in St. John 19, 25 it must be Mary the wife of Clopas, not Mary the “mother of Jesus,” as the Virgin Mary is never mentioned by any other title except as “mother of Jesus.” Further, we know that the father of James the younger was Clopas, the husband of Mary of Clopas (St. Mark 3, 18), making Mary of Clopas James’ mother. As for Jude, he was also a son of Clopas and the Virgin Mary’s sister as Scripture speaks of him as a brother of James the younger: “James son of Alphaeus (Clopas), and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the brother of James” (Acts 1, 13 [Douai]). Consequently, Our Lord had cousins by the names of James, Joseph and Jude.13

One can safely state then that the “brothers” of Our Lord as mentioned in St. Matt. 13, 54 -57 being James, Joseph, Jude etc. are in fact the same James, Joseph and Jude just determined to be His cousins. **

 

[briang72]

I see no point at this time in closing the thread. It would only re-enforce this person’s negative attitude. This would only serve to create one more person out there hating the wrong church. We would do better (at least for now) to continue responding in charity to the false claims and try to be inclusive of this persons correct beliefs.
Reenforce the positive and correct the negative.

Peace
James

Point taken. If JehuandGod does not read with an open heart, perhaps someone else will.

 

[JRKH]

Alex,
On the subject of the Bible as authority.
The Bible was written in several languages. Hebrew, Greek, possibly Aramaic.(sp) In addition the books were written over many centuries and there must have been changes in word usage over that time. (look at how english usage changes)

you state that you are using the King James Version of the Bible. I assume then that this is written in English and not in the origional tongues.

Now, if the Bible is the Word of God, as you say, then God must protect it and it’s contents. Yes? It makes sense that the Holy Spirit should protect the translation of the Bible into other languages for the good of the faithful.

Why then are there so many different and contradictory translations? How are we to know which is the best and truest translation?

Be careful now, because this is a major point underlying your entire faith. How do you know that the Bible you are using is the best and most accurate translation of the Word of God from the origional languages into English?

Understand here that I am not attacking the KJV per se. It is a broadly used Bible in the non-catholic christian world. But I suspect that someone handed you this Bible and said that this is THE Bible - No questions asked.

So now you know that there are different translations, different interpretations, different numbers of books in different Bible editions. So again, How do you know yours is the best?

I put these questions and points to you for your edification and sanctification.

Yours in Christ
James

 

[JRKH]

Be Careful in calling him “young”.

21 isn’t all that young for most. I’ve seen teenagers in here on both sides of the reformation isle that were very eloquent and well informed.

I am only 30, since this isn’t too terribly much older, am I also to be frowned upon?

Remember it isn’t how old you are that determines wisdom, but how well you listen, learn and apply. Something I’ve seen 12 year olds better at than some 60 year olds

Just a reminder…

In Christ

My apologies. No offence intended.
Guess I’m jus’ gettin’ old. 21 sounds pretty young to me at 53.

Peace
James

 

[Sword_Brethren]

He is young and on fire for the Lord. A beautiful thing that.

He is on fire for a false Christ. I don’t think his posts have anything to do with courage but rather the sin of pride. It sounds to me that JehuandGod thinks he is going to be at the right hand of God. Jehuand who are you to preach?

 

[JRKH]

He is on fire for a false Christ.

First of all I believe he is on fire for the Christ Jesus who is written of in the Bible. Therefore this is not a false Christ. It is just an incomplete understanding.

I don’t think his posts have anything to do with courage but rather the sin of pride. It sounds to me that JehuandGod thinks he is going to be at the right hand of God. Jehuand who are you to preach?

And what of your post here. Is this not a judgement of another on rather slim evidence? Are you not possible guilty of the same sin of pride?

I intend no offence. I just want us to be charitable to this young man who is on the journey.

May God Bless you on your journey
James

 

[JehuandGod]

Wow! You guys really are on fire, well, I like this and sorry I had to post such a long excert. Um well, Lets all take this piece by piece. I’ll start with the simplest: Do you all come from Roman Catholism? Do you except all doctrine from the 2nd Vatican?

 

[Ignatius]

I will stay here… so that your souls ay be saved.

Hi JaG, you haven’t responded to my post here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3199015&postcount=93

What do you have to say to this?

Your servant in Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Wow! You guys really are on fire, well, I like this and sorry I had to post such a long excert. Um well, Lets all take this piece by piece. I’ll start with the simplest: Do you all come from Roman Catholism? Do you except all doctrine from the 2nd Vatican?

So far you have posted question after question, and statement after statement without ever addressing the statements and questions posted in response.
Why is that?

James