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godisgood77
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Yes, the Pope is infallible under very specific circumstances… Church teaching has been wrong before and it will be again… luckily they often get it right.
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HarryStotle
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It appears that dishonesty and a lack of fair analysis are also both alive and well around these parts.
You know what the argument was, yet you still misrepresent it.
Four different types of torture were discussed as well as where each fits in terms of settled Church teaching, yet you continue to collapse them all into one as if the Church has settled its position on all of them as if they are the same.
Either you have no clue on how to make distinctions or you are so caught up in self-deception that you are incapable of it.
I am calling you on your dishonesty.
Here was the post:
Additionally, you need to make a distinction between “Trump supporter” and someone who is calling you out on your inability to properly defend your position.
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godisgood77
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I get asking if someone goes to Church because that’s a requirement for Catholics. I get asking about confession because that it requires when mortal sin has been committed… I don’t get the rosary question though…what does an optional devotional practice have to do with the subject?
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godisgood77
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Harry, are you still on here picking out little pieces of others arguments instead of explains why you support Trump?
I notice that you never answered my last rebuttal? What happened? Did I use all oft words correctly?
I notice that you never answered my last rebuttal? What happened? Did I use all oft words correctly?
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TheAmazingGrace
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If I have anger towards him, it is because he has done, and is still trying to do terrible things. You’re being very presumptuous, and I don’t appreciate you making assumptions about my spiritual life.
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TheAmazingGrace
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How? By blinding me to the actions of a bad leader?
I shudder to think of which side you’d have been on in Nazi Germany.
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MamasBoy33
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I support Trump because i feel Jesus answered our prayers to get Hilary out. Now i can’t keep being picky to get perfect President. There is no perfect man and there will never be one.
So imagine if i pray for a new president Everytime one is elected. I’ll never get one.
We must accept whatJesus gave us when we raised or hands in cheer when Hillary lost.
Its a sacrifice vote, but as St. Faustina said " one prayer could change the course of the world"
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TheAmazingGrace
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Don’t blame Jesus for Trump’s election.
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Erikaspirit16
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Of course you can. Read the USCCB statement on Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. That’s the entire point!!! If you are a one-issue voter, you are myopic. I could use other words, but that one will do.
Now having said that–and I’m simply paraphrasing the USCCB here–what they are saying is that yes, abortion is an intrinsic evil. But it’s not the only one out there. And if a candidate supports abortion, you need to look at the other policies he/she supports. If, for example, you like the candidate’s position on parking tickets, that’s trivial, and it wouldn’t outweigh their position on abortion, and you would be wrong (religiously) to vote for them simply to save yourself a parking ticket. However, if the candidate takes positions on serious matters–ending the death penalty, providing health care for the poor, supporting public schools, etc. (if you want other examples, just listen to a Bernie Sanders speech), then you would be wrong to let one issue (abortion) outweigh all the other issues (yes, the babies are born, but they starve to death, or they die of disease without proper medical care, etc. etc.). If you don’t like it, write a letter to your local bishop. I’m simply quoting the official position of the USCCB. If you are unaware of all this, you need to educate yourself.
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MamasBoy33
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With this tax bill, trillions of dollars coming back into our country, billions of dollars to our military defense, veterans are getting paid, new health care, tax cuts , more jobs, Obamacare out, large companies in other countries back in the US soon, border control, isis going down, gangs being arrested.
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Erikaspirit16
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And, to correct multiple posters here, to oppose the criminalization of abortion is NOT to support abortion. As I have said multiple times on multiple threads, anti-abortion fanatics fail to understand where we live. It’s called the USA. There is NO establishment of religion. You can’t say, “This is Catholic morality, and by God, we’re going to impose it on the other 67% of you.” When do Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. believe life begins? Educate yourself. And guess what–they all believe something slightly different, and none of them believe what Catholics believe. They are sincere, and their beliefs go back as far–often father–than Catholicism. Not to mention atheists. The same people who are preaching to me about the dignity of the person need to take a look at their attitude towards atheists–a large and growing percentage of the population. And of course there are also people with no particular feeling about religion either for or against, but guess what, they have rights too!
So. Do we, as Catholics, have a right to impose our morality on the entire country by law? No. Of course not.
Does that mean if I believe that (I do) I am “supporting” abortion? Of course not. I think abortion is wrong. But other people disagree, and, as some guy called Francis once said, “Who am I to judge?” They are entitled to use their own consciences to make a decision. If you disagree, just flip the argument and assume some other religious group–your pick–decided to impose their morality on you. You would be the first ones agonizing about how that violates your rights, infringes on freedom of religion, etc. And you would be right. So it is completely hypocritical to take the position that respecting the consciences of non-Catholics is somehow “supporting” abortion. And of course you’re free to argue your cause, run for office, etc. to change the law–knock yourself out.
So. Do we, as Catholics, have a right to impose our morality on the entire country by law? No. Of course not.
Does that mean if I believe that (I do) I am “supporting” abortion? Of course not. I think abortion is wrong. But other people disagree, and, as some guy called Francis once said, “Who am I to judge?” They are entitled to use their own consciences to make a decision. If you disagree, just flip the argument and assume some other religious group–your pick–decided to impose their morality on you. You would be the first ones agonizing about how that violates your rights, infringes on freedom of religion, etc. And you would be right. So it is completely hypocritical to take the position that respecting the consciences of non-Catholics is somehow “supporting” abortion. And of course you’re free to argue your cause, run for office, etc. to change the law–knock yourself out.
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sainteriksrose
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Which is what B Clinton ACTUALLY did on OUR time.
Dems and their sudden faux concern about morals - as if they have an actual clue - complaining about Trump now rings hollow. Especially since its supporters are those who have contributed to moral decline in recent decades.
Dems and their sudden faux concern about morals - as if they have an actual clue - complaining about Trump now rings hollow. Especially since its supporters are those who have contributed to moral decline in recent decades.
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TheAmazingGrace
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This naivete is inexcusable. You really need to look at his budget.
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HarryStotle
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Clearly the word “rebuttal” means something different to you, than it does to me.
Some posting threads become a clear waste of time after a while. I have no interest in wasting my time.
Some posting threads become a clear waste of time after a while. I have no interest in wasting my time.
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Erikaspirit16
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I think you need to look up the meaning of “plurality.” That’s step 1.
In any field, if I am the only one holding a certain position, I think I should take a hard look at why I’m doing X and everyone else is doing Y. Sure, I could be right–esp. in matters like science. But if all the countries of the world are aligned against you in multiple matters, no sane person would just say “You must all be wrong. And by the way, all my predecessors were wrong, too.” This is serious delusion territory.
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Erikaspirit16
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Despise. verb (used with object), despised, despising.
- to regard with contempt, distaste, disgust, or disdain; scorn; loathe.
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Erikaspirit16
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Sure. If he got psychiatric help and began looking at the world rationally and not taking everything everywhere as a personal attack. Just as an example: Headline–“Puerto Rico devastated by hurricane.” Trump’s reaction–“the mayor of San Juan was mean to me.” An infantile response.
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godisgood77
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A perfectly predictable and in-character way for you to answer… that way you will have gone an entire thread without doing anything but nitpicking the points made by others… zero defenses of your support for the President positions.
Sure… after dozens of posts, now is the time to make the case for the value of your time. Bravo
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HarryStotle
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I suppose if the only moral reason you have for opposing abortion is because of your Catholic faith, you might have a point.
What if someone were to oppose abortion for ethical reasons that are not dependent on their faith?
Are they not allowed to oppose abortion, then?
What about if someone happens to be Catholic, but is also a moral philosopher who can provide an extensive set of well-reasoned arguments as to why they oppose abortion? Should they not be allowed to do that merely BECAUSE they happen to be Catholic?
In fact, if we make this issue not about religion, per se, but about world view, with religions being variant species of world views, why should materialism or secularism or atheism or moral relativism as derived from areligious or anti-religious world views be permitted to rule the roost, so to speak, unchallenged?
Are you so insecure about your world view that you cannot defend it in the marketplace of ideas?
If providing good reasons based upon scientific facts or self-evident truths are what ought to determine public policy, why should these be disqualified merely because they come out of a religious tradition? I am fully prepared to discuss and argue any position on moral issues coming from Jewish, Buddhist, Islamic, secular, atheistic, libertarian, etc., etc., world views provided those who propose them can provide convincing reasons for their positions. Merely because a proposal or perspective on an issue comes from some religious tradition or other does not make it out of bounds, a priori. That seems to be your perspective.
You must not have very good reasons for believing in the Catholic faith if you think you cannot defend these against other moral perspectives. Aren’t you tacitly admitting that those who support abortion make the better moral or political case than you are able to? Otherwise, why wouldn’t you defend your Catholic world view against those who are pushing to make greater access to abortion the law of the land based upon their own world views?
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godisgood77
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After the Mass and Liturgy of the Hours perhaps, but there are many, many devotions - the rosary is a good one for many
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