Do Catholics teach that the world must be made Christian?

[AmosTown]

I agree with this. If we stand preaching and preaching and those we need to covert most in our secular world, atheists etc. just walk on by, and if then we continue to preach, for whose benefit are we preaching? For others or to fulfill our own sense of what we feel is a ‘good’ thing to do.

This is also true, and the worst thing you can do to evangelise an atheist is to tell him that something is the Truth because it is written in the Bible. That will do about as much good as handing him a leaflet on how to pray the Rosary.

To evangelise people effectively, I believe, you have to start from where the person is. If a person thinks the Bible is a fairy tale, then you’re wasting your time even mentioning the Bible. If a person thinks that religion is a load of superstitious mumbo-jumbo, then you’re wasting your time talking about Christianity or the Catholic faith. Our secular society (in the UK anyway) is very like this and views the Bible and religion in general in this way.

But what most atheists do value are the virtues of compassion, kindness, honesty and sincerity. So we evangelise, not through preaching the Bible at them or giving them leaflets about the Rosary, but through the way we live our lives and how we live out the virtues of loving our neighbour, because even though atheists may mock our Bible and our religion, most of them they do actually value these virtues.

We need to start the process of evangelisation from where people are, not from where we would like them to be.

Uh oh. This is way out of whack for a bible christian like me. Your answer is something like a daggar being thrown at me.

An atheist is nothing more than a sinner who expresses an open rebellion to God and God’s word.

All people are in a condition of fallen nature and all are sinners. The atheists are not agnostics. They are vehemently anti God. Associating with anti-theists is poisoning and dangerous.

Jesus died to save us so atheists must be made Christian or they will go to hell.

 

[Della]

Well, I didn’t want to bring up all the inconsistencies I see in catholicism but your points here seem to show me that there is not one version of catholicism. I have been looking into the early christians and see that the coptic christians have over 200 days of fasting!??

Then I found that Roman catholics used to fast and have calendars that have days marked with fish, but the people I talk to don’t fast.

So I ask my main questions again since they remain unanswered. I have grandfather’s catholic missal and there is a page after page theme for how to be a catholic. But every catholic I talk to and even what I find on the Internet doesn’t seem mention this kind of catholic teaching.

What you are discussing here, although you don’t realize it, is spiritualities and devotional practices not doctrine/dogmas. There are many different spiritualities within the Catholic faith because each of us is on his own journey to God. The only thing we must hold in common is the teachings of the Church. How we pray and how we evangelize is entirely up to each person. It’s why we have so many holy orders, fraternities, sodalities, congregations, rites, liturgies, and so forth.

Living the catholic religion according to this missal is about bringing Jesus Christ into the world and making together a social body of Christ. The Holy of Holies, Jesus in the tabernacle is the heart and the towns, the works, the education , the government is the social body of Christ. The historical record of the early and middle age church shows that the world must be made christian. This is the book of Acts, Paul’s letters, the history of christian martyrs, and the history of the expansion of the early and middle age church my dear catholics.

And there are as many ways of bringing the message of Jesus Christ into the world as there are people in the world. Some people are drawn by words, others by beauty, yet others by compassion and friendship. There’s no one way to evangelize. Any way that helps someone come to Christ is just fine, and not all ways of evangelizing “work” for all people. For instance, you came here with a lot of questions and we are endeavoring to answer them, but others never ask the questions you do, and yet they happily become Catholic because they made a leapt of faith or they simply realize that if one major teaching is true, then so are all the others, or they realize that the Church is truly the one founded by Christ with his full authority to teach in his name. The Holy Spirit draws different people in different ways, and we evangelize in various ways because not everyone is exactly the same. It’s not like putting out jars of peanut butter–it’s sharing God’s love and truth with others however it will help them see the truth of the Gospel and come to love Our Lord. Does that make sense?

So my question that fits with this question is:

Does the Catholic church teach that everything you do is all about the sacrifice of the Mass like this missal teaches? Is this taught? Is this practiced? Or do catholics practice in some other way?

Yes, it is taught and practiced, however, not everyone knows this because each of us has had a different learning experience and not all parishes teach this, especially in the last couple of generations. The Church is not just the local parish, you see, or the local Catholic college/school. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. And parents cannot teach their children what they themselves do not know, have not fully grasped. We’re not robots/computers into which you put the proper data and the proper data comes back out. We’re flawed human beings, and we don’t all have the same insights as everyone else all the time.

 

[Brendan_64]

Brendan said, “Being a Catholic is about having faith in Christ,…it’s about having faith in Our Lord and being obedient to the Church He established on Earth.”

That is generally understood as ‘pray, pay and obey.’

Is it really? And where in my posts have I mentioned anything about ‘pay’?

An accurate reading of what I said will tell you I made no assumptions about you. I read what you posted and replied to it. And I said, ‘pray, pay and obey’ SEEMS to be your approach.’

Well then you ought to have read my post a little more carefully. I said that it is not necessary for a Catholic to have an in-depth knowledge of all the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine. I never said that this was my approach (it isn’t my approach) but it is the approach of other Catholics, and their approach **is **perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the Church.

What do you think the New Evangelization is about? The recent proliferation of Catholic Bible study programs and videos and Fr. Barron’s “Catholicism” are aimed at Catholics who have no idea about the most elementary points of Catholic doctrine.’

So has it now become part of Canon Law that all Catholics are required to go to join Bible study programs or watch Father Baron’s videos? Is the ‘New Evangelisation’ now obigatory for all Catholics?

Your notion here is, people have no obligation either to receive an education or to educate themselves. That’s a good prescription for a cave dweller.

There actually is no obligation to do so. It might be advisable, but it is not obligatory.My statement is factually correct. So unless you can provide me (as requested) with the relevant Canon Law (or binding instruction from another church document) that states that all Catholics must have (or even strive to have) knowledge of all the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine, then it is not necessary for a Catholic to have in-depth knowledge of all the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine.

I’m not a big fan of Father Baron (he says some quite strange things about Hell and the likes) but I do agree with him that being a Catholic is about a person’s relationship with Christ and with his fellow man. It is not about having a detailed knowledge of all the ins and outs Catholic doctrine. This may well be a good things to strive to understand, but it is not obligatory for Catholics to do so. That is not the main point of being a Catholic.

I also hope that you are not comparing less educated Catholics with ‘cave-dwellers’. The Pharisees had very detailed knowledge of doctrine and spent their lives devoted to studying it. But it wasn’t amongst the Pharisees that Jesus chose to move, He moved predominantly amongst the least educated (the ‘cave-dwellers’ perhaps?). Christ’s message was simple, simple enough to be understood by children and the least educated. He didn’t preach complex doctrine, he preached a simple message of ‘Love’. If someone is living the message of Christ, then that is all that is required, nothing more.

 

[Brendan_64]

Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. And parents cannot teach their children what they themselves do not know, have not fully grasped. We’re not robots/computers into which you put the proper data and the proper data comes back out. We’re flawed human beings, and we don’t all have the same insights as everyone else all the time.

 

[mgoforth]

So has it now become part of Canon Law that all Catholics are required to go to join Bible study programs or watch Father Baron’s videos? Is the ‘New Evangelisation’ now obigatory for all Catholics?

I also hope that you are not comparing less educated Catholics with ‘cave-dwellers’. The Pharisees had very detailed knowledge of doctrine and spent their lives devoted to studying it. But it wasn’t amongst the Pharisees that Jesus chose to move, He moved predominantly amongst the least educated (the ‘cave-dwellers’ perhaps?). Christ’s message was simple, simple enough to be understood by children and the least educated. He didn’t preach complex doctrine, he preached a simple message of ‘Love’. If someone is living the message of Christ, then that is all that is required, nothing more.

I don’t think we’re expected to reach the summit of all knowledge, but we should try to learn as much as we can. The doctrines of the Church are part of Christ’s message. If we don’t know the doctrines, how can we live the message?

The seventh Precept of the Church is: “To participate in the Church’s mission of Evangelization of Souls.” How can we evangelize others effectively if we’re not well-informed ourselves? We don’t think it’s odd to require school teachers to be knowledgeable about their subjects…so why should we be less knowledgeable about our faith if we’re called to teach it to others?

Also, Christ had harsh words for the lukewarm. I’m not saying we have to learn to read the Gospels in ancient Greek or anything. But if we’re truly on fire with passion for Christ and the Church He founded, wouldn’t we desire to know and understand them as deeply as possible?

 

[TimothyH]

Acts 2:44 and its manifestation in the entire western history of Christianity including the way towns cities governments money and catholic guilds built western civilization.

Your religion states that you are a Bible Christians but you cannot possibly be reading the Bible for yourself, actually reading what the words on the pages say. You must be listening to someone rather than reading the words on the pages because you are citing scriptures but don’t even seem to know the scriptures you cite.

And all who believed were together and had all things in common; (Acts 2:44)

Acts 2:44 says “all who believed.” It is about believers, not about forcing those who don’t believe to be believers and adhere to Christian values and principals.

It is about what was happening within the community of believers, not outside of it. That is what the actual words say. Acts 2:44 says nothing about those who don’t believe.

-Tim-

 

[edwest2]

I respectfully disagree. In Matt 28:19-20 * "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”*

Although it is also important to be Christ like in our daily living, we can’t stick our heads in the sand and do nothing. As far as the comment ‘but we don’t push our faith onto those not disposed to receive it because doing so can do more damage than good.’ How can we damage someone who’s already damaged and needs the message? Kind of sounds like an excuse rather than just saying “I don’t want to do it”.

But I realize that going out into all the world doesn’t fit everyone. We are all one body of Christ and we all have different parts. So I’m not putting your answer down, just adding to it. Thanks.

As Christ sent his disciples out into the world in Biblical times, some accepted the reality of who Jesus is and some didn’t. The same happens today. But we still have to spread the Word.

biblehub.com/romans/10-17.htm

Peace,
Ed

 

[AmosTown]

What you are discussing here, although you don’t realize it, is spiritualities and devotional practices not doctrine/dogmas. There are many different spiritualities within the Catholic faith because each of us is on his own journey to God.

I’m not convinced. The Mass seems to be the common theme for all Catholics no matter who what where or when. Therefore, this is why I’m starting my questioning about the mass. As I came to realize, I am transported back in time to the early christians gather in the breaking of bread. If you don’t live Jesus’ covenant like the apostles and followers, what do you have? Not the christian religion. Religion has to be lived. Living the word as did the apostles and early christians is the religion or way and truth and life of Jesus.

So I see this in history and in the Missal. The missal is loaded with page after page of reminders that the mass is the sacrifice of Jesus, that the priest vows himself to follow Jesus by forsaking the world and risk and give his life to lead the flock like Jesus, and the flock also must follow the priest to risk and give their life in sacrifice taking the same covenant vow as Jesus! Save others! Therefore, christians must live out their life as an extension or should I say parcel of Jesus’ life itself. They have to become a temple of the Holy Name as I’ve just read in an eastern catholic liturgy.

And there are as many ways of bringing the message of Jesus Christ into the world as there are people in the world. Some people are drawn by words, others by beauty, yet others by compassion and friendship. There’s no one way to evangelize. Any way that helps someone come to Christ is just fine, and not all ways of evangelizing “work” for all people. For instance, you came here with a lot of questions and we are endeavoring to answer them, but others never ask the questions you do, and yet they happily become Catholic because they made a leapt of faith or they simply realize that if one major teaching is true, then so are all the others, or they realize that the Church is truly the one founded by Christ with his full authority to teach in his name. The Holy Spirit draws different people in different ways, and we evangelize in various ways because not everyone is exactly the same. It’s not like putting out jars of peanut butter–it’s sharing God’s love and truth with others however it will help them see the truth of the Gospel and come to love Our Lord. Does that make sense?

It makes sense for half the catholic story I guess. I don’t hear the Mass as sacrifice as part of your answer which to me, is the key to understanding why catholicism is near to the church of the apostles. Why don’t catholics make the Mass the center of their preaching? I don’t mean to put you on the spot. But what your saying sounds like what all believers are suppose to do as they go out from the Holy of Holies temple taking Jesus with them to the worldly activities.

But the whole key is that they can’t do such a thing unless they were fed beforehand. You get fed only by entering the temple of God, offering your life and soul to God, and taking his body and blood with the same solemn vow of the new covenant. Without this, you can’t be one in communion with the apostles and martyrs.

Yes, it is taught and practiced, however, not everyone knows this because each of us has had a different learning experience and not all parishes teach this, especially in the last couple of generations.

Oh no. Really?

The Church is not just the local parish, you see, or the local Catholic college/school. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. And parents cannot teach their children what they themselves do not know, have not fully grasped. We’re not robots/computers into which you put the proper data and the proper data comes back out. We’re flawed human beings, and we don’t all have the same insights as everyone else all the time.

This makes no sense. The creed says ONE holy catholic and apostolic church. Are you saying there is not one way taught to live out catholicism?

I thought thats the whole point of the Mass. You gather, say common prayer, and express a common belief and live a religion with a common practice. I can understand the lukewarm or fallen away aspect of a church, but that’s got nothing to do with a unified teaching. You present a unified teaching and practice and its up to someone to live that out. Whether they do it or not thats up to them.

I can only guess the missal I have was used for thousands if not millions of catholics.

I studied it and when I finally ‘got it’ its so simple of a faith:

The holy sacrifice of the mass is the heart because its Jesus’ covenant paid with the price of his body and blood.

The apostle priests follows Jesus command and takes the same covenant vow as Jesus, to renounce the world, die to oneself and risk your life even if it means death on a cross for the salvation of miserable ungrateful sinners.

The church members do the same as the priest according to their state in life and join to Jesus’ holy covenant.

They get purified by confessing their sins and not backsliding because they must present themselves as a sacrifice on the altar and be presented by Jesus to the father.

They receive the holy body and blood of Jesus, become his living tabernacle, and bring him into their day to day activities.

The world then becomes and is made Christian.

Its so simple a child can live it and understand it. Its in the Catholic missal, or at least that is how I read it.

 

[Della]

I’m not convinced. The Mass seems to be the common theme for all Catholics no matter who what where or when. Therefore, this is why I’m starting my questioning about the mass. As I came to realize, I am transported back in time to the early christians gather in the breaking of bread. If you don’t live Jesus’ covenant like the apostles and followers, what do you have? Not the christian religion. Religion has to be lived. Living the word as did the apostles and early christians is the religion or way and truth and life of Jesus.

So I see this in history and in the Missal. The missal is loaded with page after page of reminders that the mass is the sacrifice of Jesus, that the priest vows himself to follow Jesus by forsaking the world and risk and give his life to lead the flock like Jesus, and the flock also must follow the priest to risk and give their life in sacrifice taking the same covenant vow as Jesus! Save others! Therefore, christians must live out their life as an extension or should I say parcel of Jesus’ life itself. They have to become a temple of the Holy Name as I’ve just read in an eastern catholic liturgy.

The Missal is not an infallible authority for Catholic teaching and practice. The Mass Missal has been revised over and over again, down through the centuries. The early Church didn’t even have a Missal to go by. The closest thing to it was the Didache (which you should read). You are putting too much emphasis on a Missal produced in the 50’s. You need to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church to understand the Church’s teachings, not an out of date Missal nor even the modern Missal because that’s not its purpose.

And there are many liturgical rites in the Catholic Church of which the Latin rite is only one. The Mass is celebrated in many ways in several rites, all approved by the Church. There are several Eastern Rites, for instance, which don’t all use the same words even for the consecration. There is a good deal you don’t yet know–you are judging from one book of one rite that is out of date, as it is.

And yes, you were discussing spiritualities when you were mentioning how often some Christians fast–that’s a form of spirituality/practice, it’s not doctrine or dogma.

In the Church we refer to the various means by which the Gospel is expressed as the four D’s: Dogma, Doctrine, Discipline, and Devotions. Dogmas must be believed. Doctrine is believed because we bow to the Church’s authority who gave it to us. Disciplines are how the liturgies are conducted and their forms, and the governance of the Church. And Devotions are how we privately pray. Spirituality is how we apply all these to our own lives.

It makes sense for half the catholic story I guess. I don’t hear the Mass as sacrifice as part of your answer which to me, is the key to understanding why catholicism is near to the church of the apostles. Why don’t catholics make the Mass the center of their preaching? I don’t mean to put you on the spot. But what your saying sounds like what all believers are suppose to do as they go out from the Holy of Holies temple taking Jesus with them to the worldly activities.

The Eucharist and the Scriptures are the center of Catholic preaching, but preaching is the duty of the ordained. Lay people don’t preach, we teach and we share and we correct the faith, but we don’t preach it. One must be at least a deacon to preach in the Church. Of course we take the Mass with us in the form of the graces received in the Mass. We share it in many, many ways, as I wrote before. Words are fine, but sometimes just holding another person’s hand in an emergency speaks much more loudly than merely voicing words at them. Jesus wanted us to do, not just to speak, God’s love for each other. As a Protestant you weren’t taught this. Indeed, Jesus’ words are seldom used to teach the true meaning of the Gospel to Bible only believers. But he had a lot to say about doing God’s work not just voicing it. You need to read the Gospels with understanding in mind.

continued next post…

 

[Della]

But the whole key is that they can’t do such a thing unless they were fed beforehand. You get fed only by entering the temple of God, offering your life and soul to God, and taking his body and blood with the same solemn vow of the new covenant. Without this, you can’t be one in communion with the apostles and martyrs.

As you see it, you mean. As I’ve said before, you are only just beginning to learn about the faith Christ passed on to his Apostles and which they passed on through the bishops of the Church. You are used to thinking in terms of individuals and their relationship with Christ, but we aren’t just individuals, we’re part of the body of Christ, each with his own duties and responsibilities in the eyes of God. “Are all teachers? Are all preachers? Do all speak in tongues?” The obvious answer is: No. Each of us takes in the Eucharist at Mass, and God’s word proclaimed in the Mass, and the worship offered to God, and then goes out to live the life God wants him to live. Some have families who they are to teach God’s words to, others work and so are an influence on their coworkers, others do what some of us are doing on CAF, answering people’s questions as best we can. Each one serves God as God directs.

Oh no. Really?

This makes no sense. The creed says ONE holy catholic and apostolic church. Are you saying there is not one way taught to live out catholicism?

Yes, really. Sad to say. Why? Because human beings aren’t perfect. We put out there what we think we know, but we aren’t always taught what really should be taught at the local level. It’s no different in Protestant churches. It depends on who is teaching and what they know and what is allowed to be taught. The Magisterium (that is all the bishops in union with the pope) decide what is right and proper in what we practice and believe, but it doesn’t always filter down to the grass roots level. It’s why we can’t be lazy and just accept things without looking into what the Church actually teaches. Some parishes emphasize God’s love over everything else and others are very community-minded and for others social justice is the big concern. Personally, I think all parishes should just be in the business of feeding souls and caring for those in need, but that’s me.

I thought thats the whole point of the Mass. You gather, say common prayer, and express a common belief and live a religion with a common practice. I can understand the lukewarm or fallen away aspect of a church, but that’s got nothing to do with a unified teaching. You present a unified teaching and practice and its up to someone to live that out. Whether they do it or not thats up to them.

That is indeed the ideal. But we live in a fallen world in which people push their own agendas. The Church would have fallen apart centuries ago if not for the Holy Spirit holding it together. It’s not men who do that, although we have our part to play and should be doing it, but men alone cannot do God’s work. God works through flawed human beings to accomplish his will. If only he didn’t have our failings to deal with no doubt the Second Coming would have happened by now, but he does work with us, just as we are, as long as we cooperate with his grace, he forgives our sins and failings and we go on.

I can only guess the missal I have was used for thousands if not millions of catholics.

Certainly. The Church has not changed its teachings, but what is emphasized often does change. The Eucharist is still the heart of the Church and always will be. But many parishes changed the emphasis from sacrifice to that of sharing the Pascal meal–from being God-centered to people-centered–meeting our needs instead of giving to God what he wants of us. It’s swinging back to emphasizing the sacrifice aspect but without forgetting that the Eucharist feeds us and gives us God’s grace.

I studied it and when I finally ‘got it’ its so simple of a faith:

The holy sacrifice of the mass is the heart because its Jesus’ covenant paid with the price of his body and blood.

The apostle priests follows Jesus command and takes the same covenant vow as Jesus, to renounce the world, die to oneself and risk your life even if it means death on a cross for the salvation of miserable ungrateful sinners.

The church members do the same as the priest according to their state in life and join to Jesus’ holy covenant.

They get purified by confessing their sins and not backsliding because they must present themselves as a sacrifice on the altar and be presented by Jesus to the father.

They receive the holy body and blood of Jesus, become his living tabernacle, and bring him into their day to day activities.

The world then becomes and is made Christian.

Its so simple a child can live it and understand it. Its in the Catholic missal, or at least that is how I read it.

All this is still true. We need to remember it and teach it to our children. When we do there will be a great revival amongst the average Catholics who go to Mass with little understanding of why they are there and what it’s all about. It’s one of the reasons CAF exists–to help our fellow Catholics (who weren’t taught it), as well as our Protestant brethren, come to see and believe this.

 

[steve_b]

I’ve been reading the Catholic Missal and found this:

One of the things I’ve heard again and again over the years is that the catholic church is not a gospel preaching evangelical church. One of my observations is that I’ve not seen catholics out there preaching.

Yet I found the above quote in the Catholic Missal.

Question:

**Do Catholics teach that the world must be made christian? **

It says so in the bible to do so and I was wondering if the catholic church really believes this?

The Church is always teaching about the apostolic faith.

If you’ve not been given this link before, you might find this interesting.

Papal encyclicals papalencyclicals.net/all.htm going back to 12th century

And you’re familiar with 1st to 8th century history, ECF’s newadvent.org/fathers/

Another way the Church evangelizes and outreaches, is through her institutions and ministries

• Schools + Colleges
• Hospitals
• Charities

As an aside, The Catholic Church is THE largest single institution in these areas, in the world.

 

[AmosTown]

As you see it, you mean. As I’ve said before, you are only just beginning to learn about the faith Christ passed on to his Apostles and which they passed on through the bishops of the Church. You are used to thinking in terms of individuals and their relationship with Christ, but we aren’t just individuals, we’re part of the body of Christ, each with his own duties and responsibilities in the eyes of God. “Are all teachers? Are all preachers? Do all speak in tongues?” The obvious answer is: No. Each of us takes in the Eucharist at Mass, and God’s word proclaimed in the Mass, and the worship offered to God, and then goes out to live the life God wants him to live.

Certainly. The Church has not changed its teachings, but what is emphasized often does change. The Eucharist is still the heart of the Church and always will be. ** But many parishes changed the emphasis from sacrifice to that of sharing the Pascal meal–from being God-centered to people-centered–meeting our needs instead of giving to God what he wants of us.** It’s swinging back to emphasizing the sacrifice aspect but without forgetting that the Eucharist feeds us and gives us God’s grace.

Thank you for putting this together. It makes some sense and on the other hand I think I’m more confused.

Why? I just came through thorns and thickets of protestant background and history having heard over and over the slam on catholicism that is that the priest is false, the sacrifice is false, and you say you changed the emphasis from Jesus’ sacrifice? I have to chew on that one.

Have you read James White?

*The relevance of this passage to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Mass as a ‘propitiatory sacrifice” is clear. Rome insists that the Mass is the very same sacrifice as that of Calvary, differing only in manner (bloody versus unbloody). Yet it is admitted that the effect of the Mass is limited, and that a person can draw near to the Mass over and over again and still die “impure.” According to their doctrine, it is quite possible for a person to attend Mass every day of his life, commit a mortal sin the hour before his death, and be lost for eternity , despite having approached the Mass as a sacrifice thousands of times. The Roman Catholic response would be that such a person is unlikely to commit such a serious sin because so much grace had already been given him through attendance at so many Masses. The fact remains that God’s grace is said to be channeled through the Sacraments, especially through the Mass. Yet that grace cannot accomplish its goal outside of the cooperation of the person drawing near to worship, and so the possibility of being lost for eternity remains.

The repetitive nature of the Mass stands in stark contrast to the completeness of the Cross. As the writer to the Hebrews said, if such a sacrifice as what is presented in the Mass were sufficient wouldn’t the persons drawing near be cleanses and have no more need of the offering? But the fact that they must come back over and over again shows that the sacrifice of the Mass has more in common with the old sacrifices of the Old Covenant than it does with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary.* – James White, The Roman Catholic Controversy

I guess if the Mass is not a sacrifice then I’ve lost the clear connection to the idea that the Apostles obeyed Jesus and took ‘do this’ to mean they too must sacrifice their lives for Jesus and spread the Gospel in the breaking of the bread to save sinners. A great sacrifice of Christ united to a communion of sacrifices of the apostles, priests, martyrs, saints.

It all made sense for a moment. The apostles are priests and are a victim for and with Jesus Christ. The martyrs and early church did the same.

The church of the Acts of the Apostles says spread the Good News and make the world Christian. I guess I am going to read up some more and pray on this but thanks again.

 

[AmosTown]

The Church is always teaching about the apostolic faith.

If you’ve not been given this link before, you might find this interesting.

Papal encyclicals papalencyclicals.net/all.htm going back to 12th century

And you’re familiar with 1st to 8th century history, ECF’s newadvent.org/fathers/

Another way the Church evangelizes and outreaches, is through her institutions and ministries

• Schools + Colleges
• Hospitals
• Charities

As an aside, The Catholic Church is THE largest single institution in these areas, in the world.

That’s great! That’s the attraction! That’s what I want, a social body of Jesus Christ church with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as the heartbeat of every town village and city in the world! The people live out the catholic religion by offering themselves ceaselessly in every thought action word deed in union with the Sacrifice of the Mass which is the covenant made in Christ’s Blood!

The world will become sanctified. People’s lives will become regulated according to the holy way and truth and life. One common heartbeat one breath. The apostolic religion is like a big life support breathing machine. That is Acts 2:44

C’mon catholics! You have the biggest church. Get your act together and organize and evangelize one way in which you live the Gospel.

Get your game on people!

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Well, I didn’t want to bring up all the inconsistencies I see in catholicism but your points here seem to show me that there is not one version of catholicism. I have been looking into the early christians and see that the coptic christians have over 200 days of fasting!??

If by ‘inconsistencies’ you mean different devotions and exercises in piety, they are not applicable to Catholicism, per se, but particular religious traits of different Catholics. If you mean Catholic doctrine, by all means bring them up so I can defend the Church from your misunderstandings.

Then I found that Roman catholics used to fast and have calendars that have days marked with fish, but the people I talk to don’t fast.

Catholics are required to fast for one hour before receiving the Sacrament, on Good Friday and to abstain from meat on that day, Wednesdays and Fridays during Lent and Christmas eve. Anything else is simply devotional practice. What you described is the former practice, which has been changed. Please remember, these are not doctrines and the Church can enforce, limit or eliminate them at will. The practices in your grandfather’s missal are no longer practiced, to my regret. I think the Church made a serious mistake in setting them aside and, as you note, most Catholics today under the age of 60 are not even aware of them.

Does the Catholic church teach that everything you do is all about the sacrifice of the Mass like this missal teaches? Is this taught? Is this practiced? Or do catholics practice in some other way?

The Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the source and summit of our Faith. The Mass is a remembrance and a recalling of the Lord’s sacrifice on the Cross and His resurrection. We teach and practice it every single day all over the world.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Is it really? And where in my posts have I mentioned anything about ‘pay’?

You didn’t say anything about it, Brendan. “Pray, pay and obey” is a sarcastic insult used by people who wish to characterize Catholics as knuckle-draggers who do what they’re told by their oppressive overlording bishops. I used it as hyperbole for what you said, which leans in that direction.

Well then you ought to have read my post a little more carefully. I said that it is not necessary for a Catholic to have an in-depth knowledge of all the ins and outs of Catholic doctrine.

Yes you did and I told you you had misrepresented my remarks. Saying it again after I have corrected you and reminded you I spoke only of a rudimentary knowledge of the Faith takes us to a place I don’t care to go. Merry Christmas, Brendan.

 

[po18guy]

Why? I just came through thorns and thickets of protestant background and history having heard over and over the slam on catholicism that is that the priest is false, the sacrifice is false, and you say you changed the emphasis from Jesus’ sacrifice? I have to chew on that one.

If the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox liturgies (mass/divine liturgy as sacrifice) are false, then Christ’s sacrifice was false - they are one and the same. The error that so many make today is to confine Jesus to the time period in which He walked the earth, and to confine what he did to the past - His sacrifice. He is timeless, exists outside of time, as does everything He did and said. As to the changes in this doctrine that you have been exposed to, the reformation involved some fairly young and radical priests who rejected much of what both the Catholic and Orthodox had already taught and practiced for 1,500 years at that time.

Have you read James White?

Notorious anti-Catholic. I think his opinions have been well refuted by various Catholic apologists.

I guess if the Mass is not a sacrifice

Think about this: Is this not exactly what the evil one wants us to believe? That God did not sacrifice for us? That His apostles did not sacrifice, and that we should not - indeed cannot - sacrifice? In the Old Testament, there is no worship without sacrifice - the two are inextricably interwoven. If we are members of Christ’s Body, living and breathing along with Him, and if He sacrificed Himself, then how can we not sacrifice ourselves along with Him? What part of His Body could not, or would not also sacrifice itself? Thus, we offer ourselves at the offertory during the mass. That is the cost of discipleship - that of being willing to offer our very lives and bodies up beside Christ.

It is not “Me and Jesus” as so many believe. We are parts of His living, breathing Body. Through the Holy Eucharist, He remains in us and we in Him. He gave Himself fully and we are called to give ourselves fully int he same manner.

It all made sense for a moment. The apostles are priests and are a victim for and with Jesus Christ. The martyrs and early church did the same.

Absolutely! Have a look at the list of known Catholic martyrs. Is James White claiming that their lives were of no value when offered for the sake of Christ? And how could Paul make up in his body what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ? (Colossians 1:24). Now, you are beginning to understand this verse for perhaps the first time. The only way that verse makes sense is if the mass actually is a sacrifice and we join ourselves to it. We can waste our suffering, or we can offer it to God for eternal benefit - since we are parts (members) of Christ’s Body.

The church of the Acts of the Apostles says spread the Good News and make the world Christian. I guess I am going to read up some more and pray on this but thanks again.

Please stick with Catholic sources, if you are pondering the Catholic faith. Let James White talk to himself, as he preaches division rather than unity. Of course, making the world Christian is dependent upon open hearts receiving the Word. Remember the parable of the sower.

 

[po18guy]

I’m not convinced. The Mass seems to be the common theme for all Catholics no matter who what where or when. The missal is loaded with page after page of reminders that the mass is the sacrifice of Jesus, that the priest vows himself to follow Jesus by forsaking the world and risk and give his life to lead the flock like Jesus, and the flock also must follow the priest to risk and give their life in sacrifice taking the same covenant vow as Jesus!

The mass is the greatest prayer of the Church. It is sacrifice. It is community. The Holy Eucharist is the source and summit of out faith - Jesus Christ in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. Yet, the classic dismissal at the end of the mass is “Ite missa est” Literally, “Go, you are sent on mission.” You have sensed this automatically, which shows the influence of the Holy Spirit on your inquiry.

Yet, what can we do outside of mass? We are to pray constantly - without ceasing. How to do this, since the mass is only one hour per week, or daily mass about 30 minutes? Devotions and contemplative prayer. You would be amazed at the insights, the illuminations, the mini-revelations that you receive in contemplative prayer - a type of prayer almost unknown in bible Christianity. Even so, contemplative prayer is not required to be Catholic. However, it is part of the incredible, unfathomable richness of the faith, which reflects the unfathomable richness of our Lord. One cannot help but be drawn to the various devotions in the faith. Yet, as Della and others have said, there are as many paths to God as there are souls on earth.

Yet, we are in a different world than that which the bible speaks of. There were essentially no atheists of agnostics then. All had some form of god they worshipped and sacrificed to, even if it was the sitting king. Today, we confront many who disbelieve in any god. That is entirely different and calls for an entirely different approach. It is one thing to demonstrate that the God of Israel is the One, True God. It is quiter another to demonstrate that there is a God at all. This requires prayer and fasting, as well as other devotions. We are not living in the 100% religious world of 2,000 years ago.

 

[TimothyH]

The arrogance of the OP is breathtaking - lecturing Catholics on the nature of their religion, how to live it, sanctification, evangelization and exhorting us to “Get organized!”

-Tim-

 

[po18guy]

C’mon catholics! You have the biggest church. Get your act together and organize and evangelize one way in which you live the Gospel.

Get your game on people!

Remember that acts of charity, silent contemplative prayer, and unseen devotions are all parts of evangelization. Jesus told us to close our doors and pray in secret - and our Father who sees in secret will hear us. Evangelization is not the simple proclamation of the Gospel. It is not a mere sowing of the seed. The ground must be fertile and tilled before the seed is sown. We do that preparatory work through fasting, prayer and imploring the Holy Spirit to prepare a field for us. The western world has already heard the Gospel and is rejecting it - some demons are cast out only through fasting and prayer. Christ has not changed, but the world most certainly has, and this calls for a different approach than it did way back then.

As to getting our acts together, we are here spreading the Gospel message. Have you heard it or experienced it even in these posts? It’s there. We are calling you and all at CAF to Christian unity - the unity for which Christ prayed to the Father. In that unity the face of the earth will be renewed. And, the earth is not renewed by beating unwilling hearts over the head with bible verses.

As to your quest, the questions you are asking; the confusion that you are experiencing; the troubles and difficulties that you have on your journey will have their solution. That solution will be found in the presence of your risen Lord.

He is as close as your nearest Catholic parish. Call and ask them when they offer adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Go to the chapel and spend time, for perhaps the first time in your life, in the presence of your Savior.

Tell Him about your doubts and concerns. Ask Him to reveal His presence to you. Then, be as patient with Him as He has been with you.

The earth is renewed one soul at a time. Once you are aware that He is there, you will be changed.

 

[Brendan_64]

Yes you did and I told you you had misrepresented my remarks. Saying it again after I have corrected you and reminded you I spoke only of a rudimentary knowledge of the Faith takes us to a place I don’t care to go. Merry Christmas, Brendan.

I don’t recall you ever using the term ‘rudimentary’, and you also that it was obligatory. It actually isn’t obligatory. It may be advisable, or even strongly recommended, but it isn’t obligatory. A Catholic does not have to sit a test in catechesis (at any level) in order to be a Catholic, or to remain so.