Do Catholics teach that the world must be made Christian?

[AmosTown]

Your religion states that you are a Bible Christians but you cannot possibly be reading the Bible for yourself, actually reading what the words on the pages say. You must be listening to someone rather than reading the words on the pages because you are citing scriptures but don’t even seem to know the scriptures you cite.

And all who believed were together and had all things in common; (Acts 2:44)

Acts 2:44 says “all who believed.” It is about believers, not about forcing those who don’t believe to be believers and adhere to Christian values and principals.

It is about what was happening within the community of believers, not outside of it. That is what the actual words say. Acts 2:44 says nothing about those who don’t believe.

-Tim-

It is obvious and clear to me that a society that has all things together in common is a completely Christian society.

Are you suggesting that the bible should say

“All who believed AND all who didn’t believe … had all things things in common?”

You asked where does it say in the bible the world must be made christian, and I answered with the proof that Christian societies were formed in the time of the book of Acts AND throughout the history of Christendom!

Acts 4:32 - “And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.”

Acts 5:1-11 - But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Even the half hearted, let alone non believers were removed from the Christian community by miraculous wonders and signs from God!

 

[AmosTown]

Your religion states that you are a Bible Christians but you cannot possibly be reading the Bible for yourself, actually reading what the words on the pages say. You must be listening to someone rather than reading the words on the pages because you are citing scriptures but don’t even seem to know the scriptures you cite.

And all who believed were together and had all things in common; (Acts 2:44)

Acts 2:44 says “all who believed.” It is about believers, not about forcing those who don’t believe to be believers and adhere to Christian values and principals.

It is about what was happening within the community of believers, not outside of it. That is what the actual words say. Acts 2:44 says nothing about those who don’t believe.

-Tim-

ps - Isn’t the Catholic church the church of bible AND tradition?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Question:

**Do Catholics teach that the world must be made christian? **

It says so in the bible to do so and I was wondering if the catholic church really believes this?

Well of course we are to evangelize to the whole world. It isn’t
everybody’s calling, I don’t believe, but it is certainly for some.

 

[Della]

Thank you for putting this together. It makes some sense and on the other hand I think I’m more confused.

Why? I just came through thorns and thickets of protestant background and history having heard over and over the slam on catholicism that is that the priest is false, the sacrifice is false, and you say you changed the emphasis from Jesus’ sacrifice? I have to chew on that one.

Good heavens! I never said the Mass isn’t the sacrifice of Christ. Some parishes may not emphasize it (mine certainly does), but it still is that nonetheless. The Mass is both Christ’s Sacrifice and the Pascal Meal/Feast, not one or the other. I didn’t rob you of your understanding, I tried to add to it. In Catholicism, unlike Evangelicalism, we see a good many things as both/and not either/or. It’s a concept you’re going to want to wrap your head around.

Have you read James White?

Just enough to know how wrong he is about just about everything, poor man. Having once been a rabid Fundamentalist, I understand just what he is saying. I feel so badly for anyone who has to waste his time trying so hard to deny the very things that would bring God’s grace into his life, but that’s his choice.

I guess if the Mass is not a sacrifice then I’ve lost the clear connection to the idea that the Apostles obeyed Jesus and took ‘do this’ to mean they too must sacrifice their lives for Jesus and spread the Gospel in the breaking of the bread to save sinners. A great sacrifice of Christ united to a communion of sacrifices of the apostles, priests, martyrs, saints.

It all made sense for a moment. The apostles are priests and are a victim for and with Jesus Christ. The martyrs and early church did the same.

The church of the Acts of the Apostles says spread the Good News and make the world Christian. I guess I am going to read up some more and pray on this but thanks again.

As I explained, the Mass is Christ’s sacrifice, but that’s not all it is. We also offer prayers, hear God’s word proclaimed, and worship God in “spirit and in truth” in the Mass. The celebration of the Mass has 3 parts only one of which is the Sacrifice of the Altar, which is also called the Pascal Meal/Feast because we are consuming Christ’s body and blood, soul and divinity. Remember, it’s both/and not either/or.

 

[AmosTown]

As I explained, the Mass is Christ’s sacrifice, but that’s not all it is. …

Now hang on a minute. Per the recommendation of this forum I’m chipping away at the Catholic catechism and the definition of the Mass says:

357. What is the Mass?

The Mass is the sacrifice of the New Law in which Christ, through the ministry of the priest, offers Himself to God in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine.

For, from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place there is sacrifice and there is offered to my name a clean oblation. (Malachi 1:11)

358. What is a sacrifice?

A sacrifice is the offering of a victim by a priest to God alone, and the destruction of it in some way to acknowledge that He is the Creator of all things.

359. Who is the principal priest in every Mass?

The principal priest in every Mass is Jesus Christ, who offers to His heavenly Father, through the ministry of His ordained priest, His body and blood which were sacrificed on the cross.

And having taken bread, he gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is being given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In like manner he took also the cup after the supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which shall be shed for you.” (Luke 22:19-20)

360. Why is the Mass the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross?

The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same, and the principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ.

361. What are the purposes for which the Mass is offered?

The purposes for which the Mass is offered are: first, to adore God as our Creator and Lord; second, to thank God for His many favors; third, to ask God to bestow His blessings on all men; fourth, to satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.

362. Is there any difference between the sacrifice of the cross and the Sacrifice of the Mass?

The manner in which the sacrifice is offered is different. On the cross Christ physically shed His blood and was physically slain, while in the Mass there is no physical shedding of blood nor physical death, because Christ can die no more; on the cross Christ gained merit and satisfied for us, while in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.

For we know that Christ, having risen from the dead, dies now no more, death shall no longer have dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)

363. How should we assist at Mass?

We should assist at Mass with reverence, attention, and devotion.

364. What is the best method of assisting at Mass?

The best method of assisting at Mass is to unite with the priest in offering the Holy Sacrifice, and to receive Holy Communion.

364a. How can we best unite with the priest in offering the Holy Sacrifice?

We can best unite with the priest in offering the Holy Sacrifice by joining in mind and heart with Christ, the principal Priest and Victim, by following the Mass in a missal, and by reciting or chanting the responses.

365. Who said the first Mass?

Our Divine Savior said the first Mass, at the Last Supper, the night before He died.

 

[po18guy]

Now hang on a minute. Per the recommendation of this forum I’m chipping away at the Catholic catechism and the definition of the Mass says:

It appears that you have an older, perhaps Baltimore Catechism. It is simplified into question and answer format, but is nowhere near as complete as the full catechism. Still, if you are limiting yourself to an older document, read 361 and you will see more purposes of the mass beyond the sacrifice.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Well I can definitely relate to that!

I just meant to say you’ve got the greatest treasure! It has to be shared with everyone in the world!

I agree! Yet, in the past, I’ve had terrible experiences that have gone literally nowhere because non-denominational hate preachers, secular agnostics, atheists, and even lukewarm Catholics simply won’t have any one what I share with them. I have found, by experience, that a more gentle approach, along with personal testimony, are more effective. Street preaching accomplishes literally nothing except to alienate those who walk by.

 

[AmosTown]

It appears that you have an older, perhaps Baltimore Catechism. It is simplified into question and answer format, but is nowhere near as complete as the full catechism. Still, if you are limiting yourself to an older document, read 361 and you will see more purposes of the mass beyond the sacrifice.

Again, I’m trying to read something closest to the time period of the apostles.

What is the oldest known catechism of the Catholic church? If you happen to know, I’d appreciate the reference.

Thank you.

 

[AmosTown]

I agree! Yet, in the past, I’ve had terrible experiences that have gone literally nowhere because non-denominational hate preachers, secular agnostics, atheists, and even lukewarm Catholics simply won’t have any one what I share with them. I have found, by experience, that a more gentle approach, along with personal testimony, are more effective. Street preaching accomplishes literally nothing except to alienate those who walk by.

I feel that and I can relate.

But think about the early apostolic church for a moment. The Roman Catholic church likes to say it is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Can the Catholic church of today really claim it is Apostolic, if it doesn’t resemble the church of the Acts of the Apostles, or has left behind the actual practices of the Apostles?

The Catholic religious communities resemble resemble the Acts 4:32 but the churches?

And the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul. Neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed was his own: but all things were common unto them. Acts 4:32

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Again, I’m trying to read something closest to the time period of the apostles.

What is the oldest known catechism of the Catholic church? If you happen to know, I’d appreciate the reference.

Thank you.

The Didache is the oldest set of apostolic instructions and teachings that we have. It’s the earliest known work that would be classified as a catechism.

newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

ICan the Catholic church of today really claim it is Apostolic, if it doesn’t resemble the church of the Acts of the Apostles, or has left behind the actual practices of the Apostles?

The Catholic religious communities resemble resemble the Acts 4:32 but the churches?

It is unrealistic to expect today’s Church to resemble, in any way except right doctrine, the Church of the early centuries, which was primarily interested in convincing pagans of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and spreading it to the whole world. There are billions more people in the world today, the Word has been preached throughout the world and the Church is a global entity. Your expectations cannot be met under any circumstances.

 

[po18guy]

Again, I’m trying to read something closest to the time period of the apostles.

What is the oldest known catechism of the Catholic church? If you happen to know, I’d appreciate the reference.

Thank you.

The most shocking revelation that you will receive on your journey of inquiry is that nothing was written down for decades in the early Church. The Holy Spirit has guided the Church in a supernatural way since Pentecost, as was written down decades later. There were early catechisms, but they reflected only the limited understanding that existed at that time. Since the Holy Spirit lives and guides the Church perpetually, what you need is the absolute latest in understanding, Do you have a hard copy of the catechism?

If not, I will send you one gratis. You really need the latest and greatest information.

Yet, your journey must be as spiritual as it is intellectual. Have you even set foot in a Catholic Parish? Rather than merely reading about Jesus Christ and attempting to understand by your own power, have you ever spent time in His true presence? He is waiting for you in each and every Catholic parish. Yes, this takes faith to believe - but after all, we are justified by faith, aren’t we?

Go.

 

[po18guy]

It is unrealistic to expect today’s Church to resemble, in any way except right doctrine, the Church of the early centuries, which was primarily interested in convincing pagans of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and spreading it to the whole world. There are billions more people in the world today, the Word has been preached throughout the world and the Church is a global entity. Your expectations cannot be met under any circumstances.

Amen! Well said. Now, if Amos wants to attend mass in a cave for fear of being killed, that would certainly represent the early Church. But, is that realistic? Not at all, as I see it.

There is a time for talking. There is a time for arguing. And, there is a time for doing. It is time for him to do something about it and visit a parish.

 

[AmosTown]

Amen! Well said. Now, if Amos wants to attend mass in a cave for fear of being killed, that would certainly represent the early Church. But, is that realistic? Not at all, as I see it.

There is a time for talking. There is a time for arguing. And, there is a time for doing. It is time for him to do something about it and visit a parish.

Amen! Well said. Now, if Amos wants to attend mass in a cave for fear of being killed, that would certainly represent the early Church. But, is that realistic? Not at all, as I see it.

There is a time for talking. There is a time for arguing. And, there is a time for doing. It is time for him to do something about it and visit a parish.

Yes. There is a time for talking and there is a time for doing.

Pope Francis says he wants a poor church.
Rush Limbaugh says the Pope is a marxist.
Pope Francis speaks out against money and worship of “king money”.

Surely Pope Francis believes upon Acts 2:44-46
*And all they that believed were together and had all things common. Their possessions and goods they sold and divided them to all, according as every one had need. 46 And continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart: *

And the Romans imposed their demonic social norms on the people via government taxation and tax collection.

And the apostles went forth with the power of God renounced the hedonistic Roman world and its money And :::

… the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul. Neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed was his own: but all things were common unto them. - Acts: 4:32

“Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets.” - Amos 3:7

 

[rcwitness]

One character distict to the church of the Apostles and now would be a chief bishop who’s see remains in Rome.

An interesting topic you would enjoy is the story behind the discovery of the bones of St. peter under the Vatican basilica. I believe a new book on the subject is coming out in January. I just dont have the name right now.

Peace,
Michael

 

[AmosTown]

It is unrealistic to expect today’s Church to resemble, in any way except right doctrine, the Church of the early centuries, which was primarily interested in convincing pagans of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and spreading it to the whole world. There are billions more people in the world today, the Word has been preached throughout the world and the Church is a global entity. Your expectations cannot be met under any circumstances.

You think?

Pope Francis openly condemns the world’s oppressive economic system.
Rush Limbaugh calls him a marxist.
Pope Francis says he wants a poor church. Like the Acts of the Apostles? All things in common? Christianized Marxism? Liberation theology in action?

Pope Francis stops expensive construction projects.

Pope Francis orders priests to sell their possessions.

Would Christians follow in the Acts of the Apostles and do the same if the successor of Peter orders all catholics to do as the book of Acts does ?

*And all they that believed were together and had all things common. Their possessions and goods they sold and divided them to all, according as every one had need. And continuing daily with one accord in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they took their meat with gladness and simplicity of heart: * - Acts 2:44-46

Sounds likes liberation theology doesn’t it.

 

[AmosTown]

One character distict to the church of the Apostles and now would be a chief bishop who’s see remains in Rome.

An interesting topic you would enjoy is the story behind the discovery of the bones of St. peter under the Vatican basilica. I believe a new book on the subject is coming out in January. I just dont have the name right now.

Peace,
Michael

Yes indeed. I like your signature quote from Acts. And Peter successor’s in Rome is preaching Acts 2:44-46 and Acts 4:32 with great conviction.

And the multitude of believers had but one heart and one soul. Neither did any one say that aught of the things which he possessed was his own: but all things were common unto them. – Acts 4:32

 

[po18guy]

Sounds likes liberation theology doesn’t it.

Actually, no. Reverse the hypothesis: Rather, liberation theology was attempting to sound like the early Church, but is a man-made concept that could not have occurred until Marx lent structure to his personal philosophy. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in the 1980s, condemned parts of liberation theology, but not all of it - since it seeks to address injustice, which is a concer of all Christians. It just does it improperly.

The Pope is not a talk show host.
Rush Limbaugh is not the Pope.

 

[AmosTown]

Actually, no. Reverse the hypothesis: Rather, liberation theology was attempting to sound like the early Church, but is a man-made concept that could not have occurred until Marx lent structure to his personal philosophy. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in the 1980s, condemned parts of liberation theology, but not all of it - since it seeks to address injustice, which is a concer of all Christians. It just does it improperly.

The Pope is not a talk show host.
Rush Limbaugh is not the Pope.

OK. Correction … I should have said ‘sounds a little bit like liberation theology’.

I could care less about what Rush says in comparison to the Pope. I’m just pointing out that the world of capitalism is opposed to some of the Pope Francis’ comments.

On another note, the responses of this thread indicate that Catholic believers for the most part agree, that the Catholic church teaches ‘the world must be made Christian’!

 

[po18guy]

OK. Correction … I should have said ‘sounds a little bit like liberation theology’.

I could care less about what Rush says in comparison to the Pope. I’m just pointing out that the world of capitalism is opposed to some of the Pope Francis’ comments.

On another note, the responses of this thread indicate that Catholic believers for the most part agree, that the Catholic church teaches ‘the world must be made Christian’!

Well, the Church desires that all come to Christ- that is a given. However, our Lord Himself could not convince all that He was the way - as they looked into the eyes of God!

So, we put the Gospel out there and those who are predestined to hear it with open hearts do so. The rest, we keep working on - which is also why we carry this thread on.