Do Eastern Catholics have stations of the cross? rosary? adoration?

[Daisiegirl]

To Woodstock: I resent my former parish priest telling me that I am betraying my Church by holding onto beautiful traditions I grew up with… him throwing away crucifixes, statues and a consecrated altar… my being scolded for salvaging them was contempt on his part of me…

 

[jj2011]

To ALL my Ukrainian Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ!

“The Rosary is the most beautiful and the richest of all prayers to the Mediatrix of all grace; it is the prayer that touches most the heart of the Mother of God. Say it each day.” Pope St Pius X

“The Rosary is the most excellent form of prayer and the most efficacious means of attaining eternal life. It is the remedy for all our evils, the root of all our blessings. There is no more excellent way of praying.” Pope Leo XIII

“Among all theh devotions approved by the Church, none has been so favored by so many miracles as the Rosary devotion.” Pope Pius IX

“The Rosary elevates minds to the truthes revealed by God and shows us Heaven opened. The Virgin Mary herself has insistently recommended this manner of praying. All Graces are conceded to us by God through the hands of Mary.” Pope Pius XI

IMHO, only the Devil would want us to abandon the Rosary.

I often ponder if our UGCC hierarchy has fallen victim to false ecumenism. Anybody else feel this way?

Slava Isusu Kristu!!

Your defense of the Rosary is quite compelling. False ecumenism is also a serious concern.

However, the same St. Pius X who preached the Rosary also asked Russian Catholics to celebrate Divine Liturgy according to the Slavonic books, nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter. Thus I do not support latinizing changes in Liturgy or neglect of properly Byzantine forms of piety.

However, Pope Pius XI encouraged eastern Catholics to pray the rosary with the Byzantine form of the Hail Mary. I encourage eastern Catholics to do this zealously for the conversion of Russia and Ukraine.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

If there were two springs which both led to the same underground cavern, both having their own obstacles and requiring their own strengths, and your goal was to get to the cavern, what would be the best way to get there?

You could go down one until you hit something you don’t like or have the strength to face then surface and go down the other, alternating back and forth in this way. You are sure to find plenty of wonders and to grow through the experience, but is that the best course to reach your goal? You might find the practice to be beneficial to you to get you to there, but at some point in time you have to choose one side, to accept its strengths and weaknesses, and to fully submerge yourself into that course of action.

I really don’t understand the basis of this assertive pontication. Santctity/Theosis/Deification… whichever is assisted by ritual and tradition, but not slavish singular adherence to any one. Never has been, never will.

Leave the Rosary toaters alone. Tearing the beads out of their hands and thrusting a chotki (as though it were their “Greek Rosary”) in their hand “If they are to be real byzantines” smacks of snobbery… People should “take it where they can get it” I will leave the icons in the corners of various and sundry Western homes and expect the pious personal devotions be left alone as well.

Choose your battles where the battles merit fighting. Replacing icon screens? Yes. Full rescnesion Byzantine liturgy? Sure. Personal rules of prayer that fit into the lives of the faithful? Leave it to them.

 

[Woodstock]

I really don’t understand the basis of this assertive pontication. Santctity/Theosis/Deification… whichever is assisted by ritual and tradition, but not slavish singular adherence to any one. Never has been, never will.

Leave the Rosary toaters alone. Tearing the beads out of their hands and thrusting a chotki (as though it were their “Greek Rosary”) in their hand “If they are to be real byzantines” smacks of snobbery… People should “take it where they can get it” I will leave the icons in the corners of various and sundry Western homes and expect the pious personal devotions be left alone as well.

Choose your battles where the battles merit fighting. Replacing icon screens? Yes. Full rescnesion Byzantine liturgy? Sure. Personal rules of prayer that fit into the lives of the faithful? Leave it to them.

I agree with you. I would never tell someone she was wrong or not a real Byzantine for praying the rosary. I sympathize with someone who was raised in a church with statues finding them being thrown aside one day as if everything she’d been taught was wasted.

I didn’t say anything about snatching a rosary out of someone’s hand. I said that I don’t think you can’t have the very BEST of both east and west because having the best is in the finer details. I don’t know how you got me saying I am going to force change in private devotions out of that.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I didn’t say anything about snatching a rosary out of someone’s hand. I said that I don’t think you can’t have the very BEST of both east and west because having the best is in the finer details. ((?))I don’t know how you got me saying I am going to force change in private devotions out of that.

I was using some hyperbole and metaphor - you made no reference to changing the private devotions explicityly… BUT…

at some point in time you have to choose one side, to accept its strengths and weaknesses, and to fully submerge yourself into that course of action.

Well it is easy to be confused there, I guess.

 

[Joab_Anias]

at some point in time you have to choose one side, to accept its strengths and weaknesses, and to fully submerge yourself into that course of action.

Why?

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Why?

I dunno. Several Ukrainian martys that were beatified in 2001 were Rosary devotees… I think devotional life is a little more fluid… Kinda like not having rubrics to read the rubrics…

 

[jj2011]

Several Ukrainian martys that were beatified in 2001 were Rosary devotees…

Exactly, and those chosen few who survived the gulags have attested how the rosary sustained them. I wish profoundly that devotion to the rosary would spread and increase, in a properly eastern form.

At the same time, I cannot justify having statues instead of true icons and inconostases in our Ukrainian churches. Let statues be removed prudently, with the respect due to holy things. Let our Ukrainian church have a holy liberty to use either modern Ukrainian or Old Slavonic in Divine Liturgy, and liberty to pray for the conversion of their dissident brethren.

Long live the spirit of St. Josaphat, Blessed Federov, and the Servants of God Sheptytsky and Slipyj.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Exactly, and those chosen few who survived the gulags have attested how the rosary sustained them. I wish profoundly that devotion to the rosary would spread and increase, in a properly eastern form.

At the same time, I cannot justify having statues instead of true icons and inconostases in our Ukrainian churches. Let statues be removed prudently, with the respect due to holy things. Let our Ukrainian church have a holy liberty to use either modern Ukrainian or Old Slavonic in Divine Liturgy, and liberty to pray for the conversion of their dissident brethren.

Long live the spirit of St. Josaphat, Blessed Federov, and the Servants of God Sheptytsky and Slipyj.

I hope no one misunderstands me - I am not for the retention of the statuary. Prudence is key though. I have seen de-Latinization done remarkably well, I have seen it doon poorly. Prayer and prudence.

I am going to take a few hits for this, but more than a few of us have cultivated a devotion to OL of Fatima. Between that devotion and the multitudes of saints who counseled for the Rosary - from St. Pio to St. Maximillian to Bl Theodore Rohmza… I can’t create a dichotomy in my head “Well there advice is prudent only for Westerners…”

 

[Aramis]

One further thought on Patchunky’s comment: MANY Ruthenian parishes are still latinized heavily.

10-20 years ago, we had no candlestands at St. Nicholas. Even 10 years ago. We did have the table under the lamp, with the icon of the day. The tradition of reverencing the icon thereupon was being restarted back in the early 90’s.

As the parish has delatinized (and it was one of the least such in the Ruthenian church, by many measures, since its assigned goal was to convert the Russian Orthodox), many orthodox traditions have returned. Of course, while His Grace Nicholas +Elko was ordering the removal of Iconostasi, St. Nicholas put one in… one that bypassed his objection to iconostasi: you could easily see through it! It was gold-painted square-stock open ironwork. That 1960’s Iconostas was pulled about 1996.

The Candlestands, which, for reference, are IDENTICAL to the ones in the local Russian Orthodox parishes. And they get used in both St. Nicholas’ and the local RO parishes. They game back shortly after the turn of the 21st century…

The ACROD are undergoing a “Re-greeking” not dissimilar to the one Metropolitan Basil, and his synod with him, are imposing upon the Ruthenian Church in America.

Patchunky’s experience is not invalid, just not universal within the Ruthenian Church. Not all OCA parishes are as traditional as the 100+ year old still-labelled-in-cyrillic Russian Orthodox parishes in Alaska, either.

My own praxis is on par with many of the RO in Alaska. Enough so that more than one priest has invited me for confession and communion, being basically ignorant of or accepting of the EC’s as “Orthodox in Communion with Rome.”

I see no problem with personal devotions borrowed across rites… or even from the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, even from the Jacobites and Nestorians… but I do see the need to have and know one’s own traditions and rules, and to not impose these externals upon one’s church. If, however, they become normative by popular use and are not contraindicated by the theology of the Church, I see no reason they can not be authentic additions to a given Sui Iuris church’s praxis.

 

[Joab_Anias]

I hope no one misunderstands me - I am not for the retention of the statuary. Prudence is key though. I have seen de-Latinization done remarkably well, I have seen it doon poorly. Prayer and prudence.

I am going to take a few hits for this, but more than a few of us have cultivated a devotion to OL of Fatima. Between that devotion and the multitudes of saints who counseled for the Rosary - from St. Pio to St. Maximillian to Bl Theodore Rohmza… I can’t create a dichotomy in my head “Well there advice is prudent only for Westerners…”

If you don’t want statues I am sure we will be glad to take them off your hands.

 

[kitkatty]

I

I really can’t criticize the prayerful pious soul who does some mixing and matching in their devotional life.

Thanks Simple, I was brought up in the Latinized Byzantine Church and am happy to see it return to authentic traditions but some of still have a devotion or two that might be considered Latin by most. For me that would be the rosary and it`s really the only Latin devotion I use in my personal prayers and one that I will always keep.

 

[JohnPaulSteve]

If you don’t want statues I am sure we will be glad to take them off your hands.

Hey, give 'em to us…maybe we can get rid of our felt banners.

 

[Hesychios]

I often ponder if our UGCC hierarchy has fallen victim to false ecumenism. Anybody else feel this way?

No.

All of the Eastern Catholic churches should return to their Orthodox theology and praxis as rapidly as they possibly can (while being sensitive to the special pastoral needs of the excessively Latinized), in order that they may be integrated into their mother churches once reconciliation and communion is restored.

Since this is undeniably a big job, I could see it taking many more decades. This whole generation may pass away before the tribes can enter into the Land of Milk and Honey.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

To Woodstock: I resent my former parish priest telling me that I am betraying my Church by holding onto beautiful traditions I grew up with… him throwing away crucifixes, statues and a consecrated altar… my being scolded for salvaging them was contempt on his part of me…

Perhaps he should not have been so blunt. But I agree with him.

I hesitate to state this… but don’t you think you are obsessing a little bit over the actions of your church?

You should be happy you are in communion with the Pope, your priest is in communion with the Pope, and your parish is too. Most of all your bishop is in communion with the Pope.

Wasn’t that the whole idea of the Union of Brześć? Why don’t you leave that poor priest alone to do his job? He is trying to pastor his people, under the guidance of his bishop (appointed by the Pope, BTW, if you are not in Ukraine).

From the account you have given so far he must be a strastoterpets. It’s sure like a long…slow…martyrdom.

Pokoj i dobro
Michael

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<I often ponder if our UGCC hierarchy has fallen victim to false ecumenism. Anybody else feel this way?<<

Dasiegirl, I don’t get it. Why is it “false ecumenism” to emphasize and exercise our tradtional forms of prayer and piety?

Seems to me that picking up Latinisms–the very Latinisms that squeezed out our own traditions–in a helpless attempt to prove how Catholic you are is the real false ecumenism.

Anybody else feel this way?

 

[JohnPaulSteve]

Why not just let people pray the way they want to pray?

IMHO, if an EC parish wants to jettison all the Latin stuff, they should be free to do so. If they want to retain some, they should be free to do so.

We are all one Church, after all. It’s not like the Latin stuff has cooties. (Or the Eastern stuff either.)

 

[wannabee]

Why not just let people pray the way they want to pray?

IMHO, if an EC parish wants to jettison all the Latin stuff, they should be free to do so. If they want to retain some, they should be free to do so.

We are all one Church, after all. It’s not like the Latin stuff has cooties. (Or the Eastern stuff either.)

Yes agreed we are - but we have differing traditions , and these should be respected.

Would you be happy with me coming into an RC Church and saying words to the effect of ’ You are making the sign of the cross all wrong - go from R to L NOW ? "

No- one has said that these practices should be forbidden as personal devotions .

 

[jam070406]

We are all one Church, after all. It’s not like the Latin stuff has cooties. (Or the Eastern stuff either.)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WHMSPWPfL.SS500.jpg

 

[East_and_West]

So, does anyone here think that the us of Icons in latin Churches is a byzantinization? Is there a problem with the fact that at my old parish, the Priest celebrated the Divine Liturgy once a year? Or that Eastern Saints are often found on the walls of Latin Churches?