Do Eastern Catholics have stations of the cross? rosary? adoration?

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If there were two springs which both led to the same underground cavern, both having their own obstacles and requiring their own strengths, and your goal was to get to the cavern, what would be the best way to get there?
I am a Latin Rite Catholic who has been attending the Byzantine Catholic Church for the past 3 years. For the first year I tried really hard to find my way into that Eastern spring, abandoning my Rosary and my Eucharistic Adoration and my other “Western spring” devotions so I could really get the full, pure Eastern experience.

What happened was that I lost my faith completely and wound up dangerously close to atheism. (In fact, I just recently returned here from a stint at the Internet Infidels board.)

The only things that kept me from completely abandoning God and my faith were (a) God’s grace, (b) my marriage to a Byzantine Catholic guy in April, and (c) taking up the Rosary again.

I now attend the Eastern Liturgy and do my best to share the practices of the Eastern Rites with my husband, because I think it’s best for husband and wife to be united in religious practice. However, during my daily commute to work, I pray the Rosary, and go to weekday Mass whenever my schedule permits.

I need to drink from both wells (and breathe through both wells) because I know from past experience that if I don’t, I’m going to bypass the wells altogether and wind up in the desert again.

If you’re drawn to pray the Rosary, then pray the Rosary. If you’re also drawn to pray the Jesus Prayer, by all means pray that too! Prayer is the well we’re meant to drink from - the well that supplies the water to both East and West.
 
So, does anyone here think that the us of Icons in latin Churches is a byzantinization?
Icons were once a venerable part of the Latin tradition, up until the Renaissance when Humanism made its grip into Latin art. From here statuary and western Catholic art would be born.

Peace and God Bless.
 
So, does anyone here think that the us of Icons in latin Churches is a byzantinization?
Only if they are used as icons.

Does anyone kiss them?
Is there a problem with the fact that at my old parish, the Priest celebrated the Divine Liturgy once a year?
Was that a Byzantine parish?

If it was a Latin parish he should not do that without permission from the appropriate whomevers. If I did not know your writing as well as I do I’d swear you were making that up. It sounds like an abuse.

How can a Latin parish follow the GIRM in the liturgy of St John? It wasn’t written for that liturgy.

Now if the parish is lending the space or time to another congregation or mission that is a whole different subject altogether. You should clarify.
Or that Eastern Saints are often found on the walls of Latin Churches?
Post schism saints? :confused:

I think I know what you are trying to get at here, but you need to consider for a moment that there is nowhere in the world today (that I am aware of) where Latin rite Roman Catholic parishes are under the care of Eastern rite local Ordinaries. It hasn’t been the case since the eleventh century, as far as I can tell.

If after the various unions local Latin parishes in places like Lebanon or Ukraine were placed under the care of Eastern bishops for hundreds of years and started to absorb Eastern theology and praxis, there would be a definite concern over “mixing rites”.

Not even in Ukraine, where the eastern Catholic church outnumbers the latin five to one, are the Latins under the supervision of an Eastern patriarch. Certainly not in the Middle east, where it can be strongly argued that the Latins belong under the patriarch of Antioch.

Latins everywhere are protected from the possibility of inadvertant “mixing rites”. They have not been forced to use an eastern catechism for generations, or forced to change any discipline of their ancient and venerable church by easterners.

If it is the fashion of the day for some Latin rite parishes to deck out in exotic eastern icons, or host an eastern mission once a year these things will pass, they are trends of style and fashion or temporary need the western church is noted for and could come or go as easily as centering prayer and enneagrams.

That is not at all the same as the continual relentless mind-forming pressure the eastern churches have been under for generations.

Michael
 
Icons were once a venerable part of the Latin tradition, up until the Renaissance **when Humanism made its grip into Latin **art. From here statuary and western Catholic art would be born.

Peace and God Bless.
We can always count on you to be anti-latin while demanding that no one discount your views on theology of ecclesiology. Again: East = Good, West = Evil.
 
Icons were once a venerable part of the Latin tradition, up until the Renaissance when Humanism made its grip into Latin art. From here statuary and western Catholic art would be born.

Peace and God Bless.
I thought you accepted:

Seventh Ecumenical Council – Nicaea II

SITE: Nicaea
YEAR: A.D. 787
POPE: Hadrian I, 772 - 795
EMPERORS: Constantine VI, 780 - 797 and Empress Irene (797 - 802)

Condemned iconoclasm, which held that the use of images constituted idolatry; Condemned Adoptionism, which held that Christ was not the Son of God by nature but only by adoption, thereby denying the Hypostatic Union; Defined that veneration of images and relics of saints is both right and beneficial.(TFW: 48)

Yet you want to get rid of statues? I don’t get it. :confused:
 
Icons were once a venerable part of the Latin tradition, up until the Renaissance when Humanism made its grip into Latin art. From here statuary and western Catholic art would be born.

Peace and God Bless.
True, icons were very much a part of the Latin tradition, especially in places that had a lot of contact with Byzantium (e.g., Sicily, Venice).

But Western art didn’t just start happening, out of the blue, at the Renaissance. It has a long and venerable pedigree, as any survivor of college Art History courses can readily attest. 🙂
 
True, icons were very much a part of the Latin tradition, especially in places that had a lot of contact with Byzantium (e.g., Sicily, Venice).
I find this amazing in it’s brevity.

Of course Sicily had a lot of contact with ‘Byzantium’, the empire.

Sicily literally was Byzantium, an integral and highly valued part. And it’s liturgy (and the spirituality and theology to go with it), as well as that of Calabria and Puglia (actually most of the Italian peninsula south of Naples) was that of Saint John Chrysostom for centuries.

Venice is another story entirely, considering it’s location near, and under the authority of the East Roman state governing from Ravenna for an extended period. Also…Venice is noted for all the fine works it picked up bargain hunting in Constantinople and elsewhere between the years 1204AD and 1260AD.

Throughout Italy one can find the remnants of the once pervasive Byzantine culture, even in Rome which was dominated by governors from the east for a long time. But one does not so readily find the theology and spirituality that originated and utilised the icon. Like the liturgy, it has basically been smothered out.

Michael
 
I find this amazing in it’s brevity.

Of course Sicily had a lot of contact with ‘Byzantium’, the empire.

Sicily literally was Byzantium, an integral and highly valued part. And it’s liturgy (and the spirituality and theology to go with it), as well as that of Calabria and Puglia (actually most of the Italian peninsula south of Naples) was that of Saint John Chrysostom for centuries.

Venice is another story entirely, considering it’s location near, and under the authority of the East Roman state governing from Ravenna for an extended period. Also…Venice is noted for all the fine works it picked up bargain hunting in Constantinople and elsewhere between the years 1204AD and 1260AD.

Throughout Italy one can find the remnants of the once pervasive Byzantine culture, even in Rome which was dominated by governors from the east for a long time. But one does not so readily find the theology and spirituality that originated and utilised the icon. Like the liturgy, it has basically been smothered out.

Michael
Hey welcome back Michael.
 
LOL…that’s a somewhat polemical take on history…non? 😉
Are you referring to what I wrote? 🙂

I thought it was very historically accurate! Is there anything I wrote that you find innacurate? Since it is all about eastern Catholics in Italy from bygone days, I am presuming that I am posting within the guidelines.

Anyway, the irony is kind of humorous come to think of it. 🙂

Thanks 👍
 
Thanks Joab!

I think the lobotomy worked! …I feel great.

😃
Hehe, I have had a few croppings here myself. I have been feeling one coming on actually. Hopefully I have learned not to harden my heart again as a result of all my previous chastisements. Somehow I feel far from sanctified though. Got to keep working at I guess. 😉

Glad to see you and a couple others back. It’s a good sign.

Peace.
 
LOL…that’s a somewhat polemical take on history…non? 😉
No, it isn’t.

Venice was a major trade city. It was constantly buying stuff from the east, legal or not. Relics and statuary, quite often.

Likewise, most of southern Italy, not just Sicily, was Byzantine. Italian in dress, Byzantine-Greek in praxis.

Michael is rather terse, but hardly polemical, in this case.

Good to see you again, Michael.
 
But Western art didn’t just start happening, out of the blue, at the Renaissance. It has a long and venerable pedigree, as any survivor of college Art History courses can readily attest. 🙂
Certainly, and I would refer you to my many posts about the evolution of Western iconography, however they have been made unavailable with the rest of the previous forum. If I have the time, I will will dig up one of my old Art History series (Gardner) which presented, I think, one of the more accurate evolutions of Italo-Byzantine style into proto and high Renaissance, including my personal favorite caught in the middle, Fra Angelico, with his beautiful hybrids of Byzantine character and the rebirths of contrapposto.

Peace and God Bless!
 
Icons were once a venerable part of the Latin tradition, up until the Renaissance when Humanism made its grip into Latin art. From here statuary and western Catholic art would be born.

Peace and God Bless.
Statuary and non-icnonic art WELL predate the Renaissance. I can’t concede “humanism” was a wellspring for Western ecclesial art traditions either. Sorry, that polemic is straight out of wildly anti-western Orthodox play book.

To be fair, it is well circulated… At least one member of the old forum spoke up and asserted that he believed the reason the Russian Church was allowed to be so severly punished was because of its wholesale adoption of western styles of iconography, church architecture and music styles. The reasoning was, the west was so corrupt and heterodox, I suppose, that any influence from it demanded Divine retribution… Who knows.

Interestingly when Hagia Sophia fell to the Turks, I have read accounts they took great delight in smashing the statues of the prophets that were found about the templon.
 
I think I know what you are trying to get at here, but you need to consider for a moment that there is nowhere in the world today (that I am aware of) where Latin rite Roman Catholic parishes are under the care of Eastern rite local Ordinaries. It hasn’t been the case since the eleventh century, as far as I can tell.
I have been informed that in fact some Latins are under the jursidictions of one of the Indian Catholic Churches…

The smallest of examples - your point stands.
 
I see no reason to disagree with Orthodox polemicists when they’re right. A lot of post-Renaissance western ‘iconography’ is junk.
 
I see no reason to disagree with Orthodox polemicists when they’re right. A lot of post-Renaissance western ‘iconography’ is junk.
A lot may be. Babies and bathwater, babies and bathwater.
 
I don’t think we should straitjacket anyone’s spirituality.
This is the 4th (at least) time that you’ve used that terminology in this thread.

It’s not my wont to jump into discussions about theology or spirituality, but I cannot ignore this thread any longer.

No one, no one, cares what pious praxis or devotion any individual adopts as their private expression of spirituality. It is, however, implicitly contrary to both the explicit instructions of the Pope and the primatial hierarchs, holy snyods, and hierarchical councils of our respective Churches sui iuris that our parishes continue to promote, undertake, and support Western or Latin devotional praxis as a substitute for or to the detriment of our religious liturgical and spiritual heritage. (And, yes, it is detrimental when those babas no longer can separate in their own minds which religious tradition is their own versus acquired in passing or by having been thrust on them.)

That Latin Catholics, however well-intended, should effectively urge that we and our presbyters ignore those mandates is to encourage disobedience to our spiritual fathers. Furthermore, whether they can see this or not, it is reflective of the triumphalism that pervaded relations between West and East for so long and brought the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches to the point of estrangement from their religious roots - which mounted stations on the walls of our temples, installed altar railings in lieu of iconostases, placed rosaries in the hands of the babas and old aunties, vested our priests in fiddleback chasubles, and denied the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist to our infants. Get over yourselves.

Let’s see - I just read this forum’s mission statement - a tad less broad than the former which invited dialogue, discussion, debate, and education, but
The new focus of this forum is to provide a community for Eastern Catholics and to help Latin Catholics better appreciate the Church’s Eastern heritage.
Nowhere there do I see an invitation to Latin Catholics to disparage our religious heritage - either directly or using the more subtle vehicle of urging that we supplement it by adoption of their praxis, as if what has historically nourished our peoples is less than adequate. I see no Eastern or Oriental Catholic pontificating in L&S that the Latin spiritual experience would be enhanced by placing icons on tetrapods before your altar rail or alongside your statuary.

The “us and them” dichotomy that someone raised is being fostered not by us, but by those among you.

It is laughable that there are those who presume to suggest that we take up a practice and, when told that we already have a different style of spirituality that expresses our devotion, are so uninformed that they must ask “what’s that?” You neither know what we do nor do you come to inquire. You present yourself, lecture to us on what we should or should not do, then ask us what it is that we actually do. It is presumptuousness at its height!

Yes, John Ireland is dead but he, at least, knew what we did and how we did it - just didn’t like it! That’s pitiful in its small-mindedness, but decidely more intellectually honest than being ignorant of what we do but urging that, instead, we do it your way!

Many years,

Neil
 
Hear hear.

We have said all this time and time again.

It’s time for it to be understood once and for all
 
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