Do Homosexuals Have The Equal Rights in the USA?

[Texas_Roofer]

… and most heterosexual men talk about the woman they like and want to marry…

None of the men I know

… . Why can’t I talk about the man or the woman I like and want to marry? There is no difference, really. Just a double standard.

Apparently you do not wish to pay the consequences of your actions.

One of the hundred great ironies is in the actual world straight men spend 95+% of their time silent on their sexual desires, so again it is discrimination only if it is not a straight man. Straight men do not just pay for their consequences but often those of their wives, and daughters, but again they are straight men so discrimination does not apply. Btw, Straight men will get about $500,000 in extra bills for each daughter they raise and be asked to subsidize their wives income about 50% so she can reduce her career for child care.

 

[edwest2]

It is not pandering to political correctness to say that the homosexual orientation is involuntary (and in a certain sense morally neutral).

Strictly speaking, passions themselves are morally neutral, while the reaction to them by our will is not (see CCC 1767 scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a5.htm).

I have looked into homosexuality a bit from a psychological perspective, and have never seen a single case where a person had their sexual orientation as a result of choice.

What have you examined?

traditionalvalues.org/urban/eleven.php

Homosexuality was removed as a disorder from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973 by non-scientific vote.

Here is a publication from the Catholic Medical Association:

cathmed.org/issues_resources/publications/position_papers/homosexuality_and_hope/

God bless,
Ed

 

[BobObob]

BobObob;6866844:

It is not pandering to political correctness to say that the homosexual orientation is involuntary (and in a certain sense morally neutral).

Strictly speaking, passions themselves are morally neutral, while the reaction to them by our will is not (see CCC 1767 scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a5.htm

).

I have looked into homosexuality a bit from a psychological perspective, and have never seen a single case where a person had their sexual orientation as a result of choice.

Actually the very term"sexual orientation" is born of poltical correctness. You dont see this term ever used until the campaign to “normalize” homosexual behavior began. We dont have a sexual orientation-we have a gender. What is refered to as sexual orientation is really sexual attraction. The former is a biologic fact-the latter comes into play only when it is acted upon. One may claim that they have no control over who they are attracted to-but they have total control as whether to act upon that attraction.

Sexual orientation refers to how one’s sexuality is directed, or orientated (hence “orientation). How one’s sexuality is orientated does matter regardless of whether or not one has sex because, as CCC 2332 says, “Sexuality affects all aspects of the human person…”

BTW, the term “sexual orientation” originated in the 1800s (or earlier), which is well before the sexual revolution or gay pride parades:

“The idea of an innate and idiosyncratic direction to the sexual drive of the individual — like so many ideas around sex — largely originated in the efforts of late-nineteenth-century sexologists to classify the vagaries of human sexual behaviour.”

answers.com/topic/sexual-orientation

Even if some people with certain agendas use certain words, that doesn’t mean to use those same words is to be politically correct or pandering to their agendas.

 

[BobObob]

BobObob;6866844:

It is not pandering to political correctness to say that the homosexual orientation is involuntary (and in a certain sense morally neutral).

Strictly speaking, passions themselves are morally neutral, while the reaction to them by our will is not (see CCC 1767 scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a5.htm

).

I have looked into homosexuality a bit from a psychological perspective, and have never seen a single case where a person had their sexual orientation as a result of choice.

What have you examined?
…

I’ve read books from Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, Dr. Jeffery Satinover, Dr. Gerard van den Aardweg, Chad Thompson, and several others. I’ve read countless articles from NARTH. I’ve read Homosexuality and Hope several times. None of these indicate that sexual orientation is chosen (although they all indicate that at least some people may experience some degree of change in their sexual orientation). I’ve also read many other articles and studies I can’t recall on top of my head.

Neither of the articles you cited are really relevant as responses to my post because neither of them indicate that people choose their sexual orientation. In fact, I read one of the books that the article you cited mentions (Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth).

I’ve also met several individuals who have same-sex attractions, including celibate homosexuals whom have said that they have experienced some degree of lessening of their SSA. None of them think that people can chose their sexual orientation.

 

[MariaTS]

Here is a publication from the Catholic Medical Association:

cathmed.org/issues_resources/publications/position_papers/homosexuality_and_hope/

The Catholic Medical Association is hardly a credible source. Any medical organization or association that mixes facts with faith has sunken to a level of the absurd.

 

[estesbob]

The Catholic Medical Association is hardly a credible source. Any medical organization or association that mixes facts with faith has sunken to a level of the absurd.

A perfect description of the APA

 

[MariaTS]

None of the men I know

Apparently you do not wish to pay the consequences of your actions.

One of the hundred great ironies is in the actual world straight men spend 95+% of their time silent on their sexual desires, so again it is discrimination only if it is not a straight man. Straight men do not just pay for their consequences but often those of their wives, and daughters, but again they are straight men so discrimination does not apply. Btw, Straight men will get about $500,000 in extra bills for each daughter they raise and be asked to subsidize their wives income about 50% so she can reduce her career for child care.

Well, I guess different people have different experiences.

If I marry the one I love there will be no consequences for it unless an ignorant bigot wants to “punish” me “in the name of god” and in that case, they would be committing a felony. I will not go to hell because marraige is not a sin.

I said nothing about discrimination, I said something about a double standard. And, don’t state an opinion as fact unless you can back it up.

 

[MariaTS]

A perfect description of the APA

Um, I don’t believe in any of the lies that the American Psychological Association expouses. Nor do I believe in any lies that the Catholic Medical Association expouses. However, that’s apples and oranges. What does psychology have to do with homosexuality?

 

[estesbob]

Um, I don’t believe in any of the lies that the American Psychological Association expouses. Nor do I believe in any lies that the Catholic Medical Association expouses. However, that’s apples and oranges. What does psychology have to do with homosexuality?

Psychology has a lot to do with studying disorders.

 

[MariaTS]

Psychology has a lot to do with studying disorders.

And most of it is false, just like the lies of the Catholic Medical Association.

 

[curtish1947]

Since my last gay in the military thread went so well, and since it got moved here, I figured I’d start another thread on the more broad topic of homosexual rights in the USA.

So, some things to think about

• Are homosexuals marginalized in society? (ie, freedom of expression)
  • How and where if at all?
• Are homosexuals marginalized by the law?
  • If so with respect to what?

What I tend to see on this board is one of two things, either a disconnect that gays are a marginalized minority group, or belief that gays have an overarching agenda to corrupt and plunge society into moral decay which makes it moral to discriminate against them. Tell me what you think!

You feel (information comes from feelings also) like you are a combat vertaran to me. I did the South Side of Chicago for years in My own parents (defending the innocents) Convenince store. The police of the time trained us. I saw much action over the four and a half years, and much since then in other areas of the United States for my parents and friends.

Lets cut to the chase, Any ethical misstreatment of individuals is against God. There, it is not only said, but, I will defend this as being correct, if it is. I have never seen a case so far where it has not been true, so I still hold this as truth.

For those of you who really know God is Real, Jesus said ‘back off dudes!’’ (Okay so He didn’t say it in those words.) He said to all of those present: “Those of you with no sin cast the first stone.” He said this, as an example, possibly, to the rest of us as to not condemn others for a different sin than ours…unfairly.

Thus, not only taking that, but Jesus’ Words and meaning in Mark 9:38-42, it is apparent that we have no rights to hurt anyone civily ever…unfairly.

So are the civil laws wrong and if so which of them is wrong? First, The Catholic Church’s teachings on this are not wrong. Those are Religous Laws, or God’s Law if you will. This is about civlil laws. We are discussing the civil, laws. Civil Laws as is said in Romans are for the benefit of the people, from God. Since it against God to force a belief, it is also impingent upon Laws not to force a Religous Belief.

The civil laws that are wrong are those not treating justly, without using the same words, co-habitating adults as not being a legally-bound-couple, should they choose to do so, exactly the same way as marriage does, without it ever being a marriage. Legally, contracturally (which a marriage is. It is a legal contract), they should not be prohibited from entering a kind of contract identical to, (in legal and economic benefits but, not in Religous benefits, unless God Himselfs changes or Allows it), the same kind of contract as married people do, economically and legally.

In every other way, some law, and now without endorsing the practice, just like God allowed Divorce legally once, the laws should be changed to ALLOW same sex and transgendered people from having the same civil rights as married people without being married, but in a contractural obligation, with the same benefits and penalties of a married couple of genetic heterosexual origins.

All the other laws don’t need to be changed. They work. This does.

Now, the other point is are they marginalized? I will take that as are they treated unfairly. You bet. They are. They are the present day Irish, Italians, Blacks and treated every bit as cruely as those groups were treated at first. Only, with the so called Gays, it is anything but a temporary situation, and there are people in every group and nationality that have found ways to kill, deny, and hurt them, for what they cannot change within themselves.

Virtually, no gay or the harder situation a trans sexual person is able to change what they are. Can any of us change. NO! We all know we cannot change what we want in ourselves. Christians all over the world know God can and has gifted some individuals with change such as the two problems above, but it is beyond our abilities on our own to change. Even, those who have tried, and have said to have used God, long term have failed in their efforts. When looking long term, greater than 10 years, the rate of conversions was zero in my research until recently. Now, I know of one person who is no longer a trans gendered person and he says God did it not him. Other than that, I know of no one. So, at the very least it is extremely difficult from what I have seen so far. But, when you lie, should I take away your constitutional rights. If you cheat on you mate should I take away the same. Should I be able to fire you if you don’t keep holy the Sabbath Day? Sure murderers and theives need to stop their hurting other people. That seems to be just what God did and agrees we shoud do legally. He took action, but only after much pleading with people, his own, the Jews to stop this. How is not being able to not sleep and be in-love with your own kind equivalent to that. No one, that I know of even knows why they are like that. You don’t either. They are not immoral. They are not unethical. They just have a problem compared to heterosexuals and they and no one else seems to know why, excepting of course The Trinity.

So, in summary, Homosexuals, Transgendered people should be treated exactly like married parents, with all the restrictions placed upon parents to bring up children in an environment which is not about sex, sexuality, male dominance, or female submissiveness, it is about being a benefit to society, and striving for God honestly. It belongs to God to chastise, or allow, not us not ever. Yet, our society, oour world and all of history have many disgusting situations where we have victimized others because we are afraid, or in love with our supposed superiority, or just plain un-wise.

…Curt…

 

[Kolbe300]

A chaste homosexual has no need to reveal their struggle with anyone. If they do it is to advance the homosexual act.

There you go again. Imagine that…

It is one thing to tell your confidant about your struggle, it is quite another to announce it publicly. You are failing to recognize the difference.

I am a chaste homosexual, announcing it on this public board. Pray tell, Buffalo, what agenda am I advancing?

Do you seriously think that the chaste Catholic, who, during a talk on homosexuality, revealed to others that he had SSA in order to make his talk effective, was advancing the homosexual act?

Great question BobObob. Care to respond, Buffalo?

One may claim that they have no control over who they are attracted to-but they have total control as whether to act upon that attraction.

I’m kind of curious, are you one who claims to have no control over who you are attracted to?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Well, I guess different people have different experiences.

If I marry the one I love there will be no consequences for it …

Well that contridicts all the other posts .

unless an ignorant bigot wants to “punish” me “in the name of god” and in that case, they would be committing a felony. I will not go to hell because marraige is not a sin.

I said nothing about discrimination, I said something about a double standard. And, don’t state an opinion as fact unless you can back it up.

Look back at post #211 and you’ll find the “back it up” (why you need it, I have no idea)

 

[curtish1947]

There you go again. Imagine that…

I am a chaste homosexual, announcing it on this public board. Pray tell, Buffalo, what agenda am I advancing?

Great question BobObob. Care to respond, Buffalo?

I’m kind of curious, are you one who claims to have no control over who you are attracted to?

Hmmmmmmmm? Someone wrote in their signature, “What God says to us through others…”

Wow!

You are a chaste homosexual, therefore you are actually perfectly in line with the Catholic Position on this.

So, who disagrees with you disagrees with the whole Holy Roman Catholic Church. Do you all understand that?

The Holy Roman Catholic Church says it is okay to be but not to do. It is okay to be Trans-sexual, Bi-sexual, Homo-sexual, but it is not okay to act upon those feelings.

You are a chaste homosexual. You are posting this openly. You are a lovely soul. It takes a lovely soul, not a person, to do this. You are amazing, unique, and beautiful. All souls are like this, but the person gets in the way sometimes.

The agenda of the non-Christian homosexual community, I would guess does not coincide with the view of the individual homosexual or even transgendered person.

You did not choose to be gay. I am saying that not only to test my understanding, but, to say what I have learned over the years. Homosexuality, is, not a conscience choice. It is other than that.

Who, would choose, riducule by most people. Who???

I asked a person once, she was a lesbian, and she said she did not choose. All the Lesbians, Homosexuals, Bisexuals, Transgendered people do not choose and never have chosen, to the best of their and almost anyone else’s knowledge. Why do you think, elsewise, there is so much work in this field with no long term results so far. They don’t understand it. That means if specialists, and almost everyone else does not understand it, it is very difficult to control if at all.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church, like in all matters, defers to proven science. Their position has not changed from the Biblical view that God has put in the Bible, because science knows little to nothing about this. Remember, science and God cannot dissagree, one will be right and one is wrong. When science proves a concept, then the church merely looks at how they, themselves, got it wrong. They then change. They do not change what is true. They do not change the Bible, they cannot. They merely look into if they made an error in interpretation. That is all they can do. If the interpretation is correct, then, they must accept the interpretation. The reason for this, is, all new science is capable of error. Even old science like the chemical desription of combustion, lasted for many many years as truth. Phlogiston, was eventually shown to have error. If Phlogiston, were used as a description of combustion, and the Bible said otherwise the Church would have refused to accept this definition.
Can you imagine the uproar. “How can you not accept science? They proved it. You people are all…” Imagine. You have all seen this kind of speech.

The church remains staunchly God Driven, not people pleasers. It is okay to be. It is not okay to act on it. It is not okay for anyone else to judge. It is okay therefore, commendable, to reveal, be respected, be liked, even though this or another issue is present in… what??.. a person. An adopted son. An adopted daughter. In a son or daughter of God.

If God is their father, even though what we call an adoptive father, do you think He would like it if you insult or criticize one of His own children unfairly???

Curt

 

[El_Tigre]

Curt, you quoted

“For those of you who really know God is Real, Jesus said ‘back off dudes!’’ (Okay so He didn’t say it in those words.) He said to all of those present: “Those of you with no sin cast the first stone.” He said this, as an example, possibly, to the rest of us as to not condemn others for a different sin than ours…unfairly.”

You have to tell the whole story. Jesus also told the woman who committed adultery to “Go and sin no more.”

As to whether gays have equal rights, yes, they do. They can marry a person of the opposite sex just as I can. They do need to learn the principle that

“Your right to swing your arms ends in proximity to my nose.”

 

[Adam1986]

Since my last gay in the military thread went so well, and since it got moved here, I figured I’d start another thread on the more broad topic of homosexual rights in the USA.

So, some things to think about

• Are homosexuals marginalized in society? (ie, freedom of expression)
  • How and where if at all?
• Are homosexuals marginalized by the law?
  • If so with respect to what?

What I tend to see on this board is one of two things, either a disconnect that gays are a marginalized minority group, or belief that gays have an overarching agenda to corrupt and plunge society into moral decay which makes it moral to discriminate against them. Tell me what you think!

Absolutely not!

Gay people do not have the same rights or equal rights as straight people. Hello gay marriage. The right to marry the one you love is a HUGE right.

However it goes deeper then that. With out the right to marry other rights are denied. The right to see their partner in the hospital may be denied, the right of custody of a child may be denied, etc.

And I’m NOT making a pro gay marriage argument here or promoting gay marriage or anything like that. I’m just stating the fact that while gay marriage is not legal everywhere homosexuals DO NOT have equal rights.

That is all.

 

[Brendan]

Absolutely not!

Gay people do not have the same rights or equal rights as straight people. Hello gay marriage. The right to marry the one you love is a HUGE right.:

The have the exact same legal rights in that matter that everyone has. Namely, the right to enter into a legal contract of marriage with one, unmarrried, adult, consenting, human person of the opposite sex.

No one is denying them the same rights that everyone else has.

Read the civil law on the subject, ‘love’ is not even referenced. Nor is in mentioned in the marriage license.

No one, gay or straight, has a legal right to marry the one they love. If they one they love happens to fall outside of the criteria that everyone else has to abide by, there is no legal right to marry.

A person cannot marry, for example, someone who does not consent, or who is already married, or to marry multiple people, or to attempt to enter into a marital contract with a fish, or a child. No one is being denied a supposed legal right to marry the one they love if those criteria are violtated. Likewise if the person is of the same sex.

Again, no legal right is being violated.

 

[Adam1986]

The have the exact same legal rights in that matter that everyone has. Namely, the right to enter into a legal contract of marriage with one, unmarrried, adult, consenting, human person of the opposite sex.

No one is denying them the same rights that everyone else has.

Read the civil law on the subject, ‘love’ is not even referenced. Nor is in mentioned in the marriage license.

No one, gay or straight, has a legal right to marry the one they love. If they one they love happens to fall outside of the criteria that everyone else has to abide by, there is no legal right to marry.

A person cannot marry, for example, someone who does not consent, or who is already married, or to marry multiple people, or to attempt to enter into a marital contract with a fish, or a child. No one is being denied a supposed legal right to marry the one they love if those criteria are violtated. Likewise if the person is of the same sex.

Again, no legal right is being violated.

You’re kind of splitting hairs. You say that because gay people have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender; then they have the same rights as anybody.

But let me ask you this, if you were not allowed to marry another Catholic but only someone of any other religion, because you’re Catholic, would you feel that you have the same rights as anyone else? I mean you can still marry any other person except the one you really want.

 

[Brendan]

You’re kind of splitting hairs. You say that because gay people have the right to marry someone of the opposite gender; then they have the same rights as anybody.

Under civil, contractual marriage, yes they do, by defintion.

The State defined the terms under which a contract may be entered. If someone meets the criteria for contract and are denied the legal right to marry, that is wrong.

But let me ask you this, if you were not allowed to marry another Catholic but only someone of any other religion, because you’re Catholic, would you feel that you have the same rights as anyone else? I mean you can still marry any other person except the one you really want.

Are we talking LEGAL rights, or MORAL rights?

In your example, I would, by defintion, have the same legal rights as everyone else. The Moral right to marry is granted by God, and that would be denied.

Homosexuals have, in the US the same LEGAL rights ( which is all that the secular state has jurisdiction over), but as Catholics we recognize that that there is no moral right, under Natural Law, for two people of the same sex to marry.

Since marriage is simply a contract under the law, tell me if I am being denied a legal right here.

My degree is in engineering and I have no medical training. But lets say that I wanted to practice medicine and even found someone who would pay me to be their doctor.

The secular state prevents me from entering into such a contract, as I do not meet the necessary criteria for practicing medicine.

Do I have a legal right ( the right to enter into a contract with another consenting adult) being denied me?

The rights you listed of marriage (visitation, custody) are civil, contractual rights. What I outlined is pretty clear that gays have the same rights in that arena as anybody else. In exactly the same way that I have the same right to set up a medical practice as anybody else; simply that I have to meet the legal criteria first.

Since you also mentioned ‘love’, that is a metaphysical reality that the state does not enter into ( hence there is no mention of ‘love’ as a boundary condition in civil, contractual marriage)

That is an element of Natural Law. If you feel that homosexuals have a right to marry under Divine Moral Law, I am certainly willing to debate on that as well

 

[edwest2]

Absolutely not!

Gay people do not have the same rights or equal rights as straight people. Hello gay marriage. The right to marry the one you love is a HUGE right.

However it goes deeper then that. With out the right to marry other rights are denied. The right to see their partner in the hospital may be denied, the right of custody of a child may be denied, etc.

And I’m NOT making a pro gay marriage argument here or promoting gay marriage or anything like that. I’m just stating the fact that while gay marriage is not legal everywhere homosexuals DO NOT have equal rights.

That is all.

This is not a civil rights issue:

jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby_gay_marriage.php3

And Catholics are not the only group that knows this.

God bless,
Ed