do mormons have the holy spirit?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jpk1313
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m checking out for the night. Can you simply post your understanding of the gospel?
2nd Adam,
In addition to what Zerinus provided and also the important note offered to you by Dianaiad, I felt like it would be helpful here to answer about what the gospel is and what it provides to humankind:

The gospel is truly the most important “good news” that anyone can find in the world. It is the knowledge, confirmed by the Bible and by the Holy Spirit, that the Son of God descended from His divine joint throne with God the Father, was sent to this earth to be born of a mortal virgin Mother, Mary, to live a perfectly exemplary life and show us how to follow His example, then to offer Himself as the infinite and eternal sacrifice for all the sins of the world so that He could proffer His grace and mercy bringing humankind into the presence of God, sinless if we have repented and have claimed His mercy through calling upon Him in faith, hope, and charity.

He is Jesus Christ, who died on the cross of Calvary and was resurrected with full power over death so that each human soul will be resurrected. He is the perfect judge of all men, our Redeemer and Savior, and the One who Advocates our cause before God the Father, with equity and perfect love and compassion. He is the Prince of Peace, and the Light of the World. His way to God is the Only Way, and is the way of repentance, obedience to the commandments, baptism by immersion, sanctification and purification through gaining the Holy Spirit and keeping the Spirit so that one can be guided toward the growth, joy, and peace that the gospel brings into the hearts and lives of each soul who lives by the gospel covenants they make.
 
Mormon gospel is simple: it is a Restoration of the original and true Church of Jesus Christ, with the fullness of the priesthood restored. That is the essence of it. What else do you want me to tell you?
Please expand, and teach us about the apparent apostasy of historic Christianity. What is the good news, or the Mormon gospel? I spoke to several groups of Mormon missionaries years ago, but I forgot the general message. I was nice to serve them milk and cookies instead of coffee and cookies too. Maybe you can present the entire Mormon message as how the missionaries would when they come to our homes?
 
The Book of Mormon has answered that question:

3 Nephi 27:

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.
14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—
15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.
16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.
17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.
18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.
19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.
20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;
22 Therefore, if ye do these things blessed are ye, for ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

The answer is found in these verses from the Doctrine and Covenants too:

D&C 33:

11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.
14 And ye shall remember the church articles and covenants to keep them.

D&C 39:

5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
I only have received the Holy Bible as revelation from God. Therefore, posting Mormon revelation has no meaning to me since I do not believe that Mormon revelation apart from Holy Scripture to be inspired from God. Could you just present the Mormon gospel in your own words, apart from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and other Mormon books? When Mormon missionaries come to our doors, they quote Scripture. Please feel free to quote Holy Scripture in your presentation of the Mormon good news.
 
Now where on earth did you get the notion that 'burning of the bosom" was WITHOUT THE SCRIPTURE, in Mormonism?

I take it that you’ve never read Moroni 10:3-7,

…and where on earth did you get the idea that finding truth MUST come only through scripture? James 1:5-6 say that one must ask in faith, but doesn’t say anything about reading for the answer.

The Holy Ghost will confirm Truth as He will, not as you dictate that He must.
In all gentleness and respect, Scripture from my perspective is simply the Holy Bible. I’m okay with you using the LDS - KJV, Catholic Translations, and other mainstream Protestant translations. I will not accept Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible. On a side note, why do Mormons use the KJV and not the Joseph Smith Bible translation? I read parts of the Book of Mormon years ago, but quoting exclusive Mormon sources are irrelevant in our discussion of the Mormon gospel. I adhere to sola scriptura to discern truth from above. Personally, I have yet to see a Mormon present the Mormon gospel through the use of Biblical revealtion alone. It’s not there… and yes the other sheep is in reference to the Gentiles.
 
2nd Adam,
In addition to what Zerinus provided and also the important note offered to you by Dianaiad, I felt like it would be helpful here to answer about what the gospel is and what it provides to humankind:

The gospel is truly the most important “good news” that anyone can find in the world. It is the knowledge, confirmed by the Bible and by the Holy Spirit, that the Son of God descended from His divine joint throne with God the Father, was sent to this earth to be born of a mortal virgin Mother, Mary, to live a perfectly exemplary life and show us how to follow His example, then to offer Himself as the infinite and eternal sacrifice for all the sins of the world so that He could proffer His grace and mercy bringing humankind into the presence of God, sinless if we have repented and have claimed His mercy through calling upon Him in faith, hope, and charity.

He is Jesus Christ, who died on the cross of Calvary and was resurrected with full power over death so that each human soul will be resurrected. He is the perfect judge of all men, our Redeemer and Savior, and the One who Advocates our cause before God the Father, with equity and perfect love and compassion. He is the Prince of Peace, and the Light of the World. His way to God is the Only Way, and is the way of repentance, obedience to the commandments, baptism by immersion, sanctification and purification through gaining the Holy Spirit and keeping the Spirit so that one can be guided toward the growth, joy, and peace that the gospel brings into the hearts and lives of each soul who lives by the gospel covenants they make.
Do you believe this Jesus that you mentioned is God incarnate, the 2nd eternal person of the godhead? Do you believe the Holy Ghost is the eternal God and the 3rd person of the godhead? What do you believe in regards to the historic Christian view of the Trinity as understood by Catholics and Protestants alike? We worship our Triune God with joy and gladness. Do you share thay same worship and adoration of our great Triune God? Please share the Mormon view of the atonement as in regards to the sufficiency of the work of Christ for sinners. Why are Catholics and Protestants part of the great apostasty which needs to be restored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Isn’t the claim of Prophet succession a copy cat of the Catholic understanding of Apostolic Succession? Does the Bible speak about Joseph Smith or Angel Moroni at all? No my friend, the Mormon Church does not have the Holy Spirit that is revealed in the Holy Bible.

Matthew 16:18

And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
 
I only have received the Holy Bible as revelation from God. Therefore, posting Mormon revelation has no meaning to me since I do not believe that Mormon revelation apart from Holy Scripture to be inspired from God. Could you just present the Mormon gospel in your own words, apart from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and other Mormon books?
Now that is a strange comment. You asked for the “Mormon gospel” and I gave you it. The “Mormon gospel” is that which is written in “Mormon scripture,” which includes the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants. I don’t care whether you believe it or not. That IS the Mormon gospel. Nothing further need be added.
When Mormon missionaries come to our doors, they quote Scripture.
And so did I!
Please feel free to quote Holy Scripture in your presentation of the Mormon good news.
I did. The Book of Mormon is Holy Scripture. I presume, however, that by that you mean exclusively from the Bible. Well, I have another solution. Since I have already given you the correct answer, you take a look at the passages I had quoted from the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants, and tell me if there is anything in them that contradicts the Bible. I think that is a better way of addressing your particular concern.
 
2nd Adam,
In response:
Do you believe this Jesus that you mentioned is God incarnate, the 2nd eternal person of the Godhead?
Yes, He came to earth and received a body and before that He was God so He is indeed God incarnate, God with us, and He has ascended back to heaven to sit at the right hand of His Father just as He did before He came to this earth.
Do you believe the Holy Ghost is the eternal God and the 3rd person of the Godhead?
Yes.
What do you believe in regards to the historic Christian view of the Trinity as understood by Catholics and Protestants alike? We worship our Triune God with joy and gladness. Do you share the same worship and adoration of our great Triune God?
I think I have found differences in how the Trinity is described and understood by Catholics and Protestants, even among those of the same religion. We certainly worship God with joy and gladness, and believe the Father, His Beloved Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are Three separate Persons who are unified, have a common will and purpose and intent, and a common power (all power), knowledge (all knowledge), and love for all humankind. “Triune God” is not a Biblical term, nor is “Trinity”, so when you refer to “our great Triune God” then I would say the Bible overrides the use of those words in the worship of God, but if that is how you choose to word your worship, then I think God is understanding and loving enough to allow that.
Please share the Mormon view of the atonement as in regards to the sufficiency of the work of Christ for sinners.
If this is a question in regards to “faith” versus “works”, then I would say that “faith” brings humankind to repentance through Christ who suffered the punishment for the sins of all humankind so they can repent and be completely forgiven of their sins. Once they enter into a covenant with Jesus Christ, they are expected and obliged by that covenant to continue to repent of wrongdoings, continue to change into a better person with love, kindness, faith, meekness, humility, virtue, gratitude, holiness, gentleness and forgiveness as personal qualities that define their life and guide their actions. Paul wrote about these kinds of attributes of a follower of Christ very often in his epistles.

Christ heals the sin-bound soul, and the sinner forsakes their sins so that the healing and cleansing are complete. Personal repentance is the key to accessing Christ’s infinite atonement.
Why are Catholics and Protestants part of the great apostasy which needs to be restored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
There was a loss of the authority to “bind on earth and in heaven” and of the understanding of Biblical teachings in how to administer certain of the covenant ordinances of the gospel, how to keep the Holy Spirit in a personal relationship with each member, and how to guide the body of members of the church toward becoming a “Zion people” who are prepared for the Second Coming of Christ. The restoration fulfills John’s unique prophecy of “another angel” coming to earth with the everlasting gospel because it had been lost from the earth. (See Revelation 14:6).
Isn’t the claim of Prophet succession a copy cat of the Catholic understanding of Apostolic Succession?
“Apostolic Succession” refers (from what I have understood) to the apostles having given authority to bishops, who give authority to other bishops and it gets passed on through the ages. The LDS (Mormon) position is that the same authority given to Peter, James, and John has been restored to the earth, with the keys of that authority and the laying on of hands that does provide for a succession of that authority so there are twelve living Apostles and a living Prophet. There are major differences in understanding of how the authority is administered, and the requirement that those holding the authority be righteous agents in its use and thus preserve their opportunity to use the authority of God, which God has granted to mankind to be used in righteousness.
Does the Bible speak about Joseph Smith or Angel Moroni at all?
Yes, as I had noted in Revelation 14:6. Moroni is the angel that John saw in vision, and he appeared to men on earth including to Joseph Smith.
No my friend, the Mormon Church does not have the Holy Spirit that is revealed in the Holy Bible.
I understand that you would not think that it does, but it is the one perfect match of both the attributes of how the Holy Spirit communicates and of what the people will do with their lives when they have the Holy Spirit to guide them. The Bible is as plain as day on this subject. It need not be difficult to figure out, but one needs to have the openness of mind to allow God to provide the kind of wisdom from heaven that Paul talked about to the Corinthians.

A closed mind will yield no guidance from the Holy Spirit. That’s just how these things work.
 
Please expand, and teach us about the apparent apostasy of historic Christianity.
The Apostasy was real. It wasn’t apparent. It entailed the loss of the priesthood authority of the Church. With that came the gradual degradation of the doctrinal and administrative integrity of the Christian Church. With the priesthood authority gone, the channel of communication between heaven and earth was lost. The Church could not be led by revelation any more, which resulted in the complications I have just described.
What is the good news, or the Mormon gospel?
The “good news” or the “Mormon gospel” is the same as what I quoted from Mormon scripture: “that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil” (3 Nephi 27:13–14). What is difficult in that for you to understand?
I spoke to several groups of Mormon missionaries years ago, but I forgot the general message. I was nice to serve them milk and cookies instead of coffee and cookies too. Maybe you can present the entire Mormon message as how the missionaries would when they come to our homes?
The message of the Mormon Missionaries is the message of the Restoration. They teach the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days through the Prophet Joseph Smith. They teach the story of the First Vision, where the Father and the Son appeared to the young Joseph, and called him to be the prophet of the new dispensation. They teach the visitation of the angel Moroni, delivering to him the Book of Mormon to be translated into English by the gift and the power of God. They teach the restoration of the priesthood by the resurrected ancient Apostles, Peter, James, and John. They teach the organization of the Church by revelation in the last days, with the full institution of Apostles, prophets, and so forth. That is message of the Mormon missionaries.
 
I will let my Catholic brothers and sisters labor with the Mormon front for awhile. Maybe I’ll rejoin you guys later on with this thread when time permits? BTW… I always enjoyed my time with Mormon missionaries. I actually worked for a Mormom employer for a few years, being only one of two non Mormons in the office. I was hired partially because I went to a Christian college. I actually became very good friends with many of the Mormons in the office, including my employer’s entire family. With my current job, a work associate friend has been trying to share Mormonism with me over the years. It’s quite fun to discuss our differences.
 
Do you believe this Jesus that you mentioned is God incarnate, the 2nd eternal person of the godhead?
Yes.
Do you believe the Holy Ghost is the eternal God and the 3rd person of the godhead?
Yes.
What do you believe in regards to the historic Christian view of the Trinity as understood by Catholics and Protestants alike?
Our first Article of Faith says: “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”. If, however, by that you meant whether we believe in the “three in one and one in three” absurdity, the answer to that is no. We don’t think that that is biblical.
We worship our Triune God with joy and gladness. Do you share thay same worship and adoration of our great Triune God?
I believe in and worship the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost. I don’t think, however, that they look like what you think they look like. That is the difference.
Please share the Mormon view of the atonement as in regards to the sufficiency of the work of Christ for sinners.
We don’t accept the Protestant doctrine of “salvation by faith alone without works”. We agree with the Catholics in that regard that man’s cooperation is necessary for his own salvation.
Why are Catholics and Protestants part of the great apostasty which needs to be restored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
Already answered I think. The Apostasy is something that happened; and we can see the evidence for it.
Isn’t the claim of Prophet succession a copy cat of the Catholic understanding of Apostolic Succession?
If you mean that we borrowed the idea from Catholicism, the answer is no. But if you mean that there are similarities, the answer is yes. The Catholic Church is an ancient institution. It is the first extension of the original Church. It is therefore not surprising that it should have the closest resemblances to it.
Does the Bible speak about Joseph Smith or Angel Moroni at all?
Whether it does or not is beside the point. There are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible which are true. The Old Testament does not mention Peter; but Peter was a true Apostle.
No my friend, the Mormon Church does not have the Holy Spirit that is revealed in the Holy Bible.
Mormonism is true. It is a Restoration of the original Church of Jesus Christ, and it has the Holy Ghost.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Heard that lots of times, and answered lots of times.
 
I will let my Catholic brothers and sisters labor with the Mormon front for awhile. Maybe I’ll rejoin you guys later on with this thread when time permits? BTW… I always enjoyed my time with Mormon missionaries. I actually worked for a Mormom employer for a few years, being only one of two non Mormons in the office. I was hired partially because I went to a Christian college. I actually became very good friends with many of the Mormons in the office, including my employer’s entire family. With my current job, a work associate friend has been trying to share Mormonism with me over the years. It’s quite fun to discuss our differences.
Thank you. I have enjoyed our conversations too.
 
Thank you. I have enjoyed our conversations too.
Please, let’s continue in regards to the Mormon gospel. I believe Mormonism hinges on the answer of one question: Is Joseph Smith a Prophet from God?

The Mormon version of Apostolic Succession (Catholic doctrine) which we can call Prophet Succession (Mormon Doctrine) is dependent on Joseph Smith being a true Prophet from God, correct? Let’s start with the testimony of Joseph Smith. Please share his story.
 
Please, let’s continue in regards to the Mormon gospel. I believe Mormonism hinges on the answer of one question: Is Joseph Smith a Prophet from God?

The Mormon version of Apostolic Succession (Catholic doctrine) which we can call Prophet Succession (Mormon Doctrine) is dependent on Joseph Smith being a true Prophet from God, correct? Let’s start with the testimony of Joseph Smith. Please share his story.
2nd Adam,
As one considers the testimony of Joseph Smith about receiving a visitation within the grove of trees near his home as he prayed earnestly about what church on earth was the true church, one is faced with their own set of doubts or the possibility of whether God could have a reason to visit this earth as the very God of Heaven. If one yields their mind to doubt, then of course they will dismiss the idea as implausible and a “made up” story.

But if one really believes that Samuel could be spoken to by God as a young boy, and that he responded, “Speak, Lord, for thy servant heareth” and became chosen to be a prophet, and if one believes that Paul had the vision he said that he had while on the road to Damascus and became chosen to be an apostle, then I think one can dismiss the doubt that would accompany their own earthly wisdom and logic about whether there is a possibility that a boy in 1820 could receive a visitation by the Great God of the universe. If one believes that God is truly all-powerful and all-loving, then surely there is the possibility that He could make such a visitation to the earth.

God declared to Joseph Smith that the true church was not on the earth when he asked the question that was sincerely on his mind. He had studied the Bible and felt that God would answer his sincere prayer of faith–because he believed in God and believed God’s promises in the Bible. It appears that Joseph Smith expected to be told which church he should join so that he could be baptized as described in the New Testament, and would no longer be worried over by his mother who had a religious zeal and a motherly concern for her son, Joseph. He later told her that he had learned for himself that Presbyterianism was not true. He was age fourteen and a half at that time, in March of 1820.

Three and a half years later, he was praying in his bedroom with a sincere desire to be forgiven of his sins and to learn if he was still worthy in God’s eyes. This is the time when an angel appeared in his room and began quoting several Bible passages that he said were about to be fulfilled. He told Joseph Smith that he was a messenger from the presence of God named Moroni, and that God had a work for him to do; that a book giving an account of ancient inhabitants of “this continent” was written upon gold plates and was deposited along with the means to translate the book containing the “fulness of the everlasting Gospel… as delivered by the Savior.” Joseph Smith was visited by this same angel four times during that night and subsequently in September, 1824, 1825, and 1826 during which visits he received additional instructions about “what the Lord was going to do, and how and in what manner his kingdom was to be conducted in the last days.” Finally, in September 1827 Joseph Smith was allowed by the angel to actually retrieve the gold plates for the purpose of translating the record they contained.

During the ensuing months, Joseph Smith worked on translating the record but was persuaded by his scribe, Martin Harris, to let him take the translation home to show his wife, and Martin lost the manuscript or it was stolen, and Joseph lost his ability to translate for several months. He finally resumed translating the work in April, 1829, with a new scribe, Oliver Cowdery, who was the scribe for most of the book. They finished the translation process in late June, 1829, and later Oliver Cowdery transcribed the entire book as a second copy so that that copy could be taken to a printer for the publishing of the book. The Book of Mormon was published with its first printing in early 1830.

Whether the Holy Spirit was involved in all of these experiences is a matter for each person who desires to know that sincerely, to find out for themselves through the same process one would expect–by study, by exercising faith, and by sincere prayer to know whether God would do such things in our day as a latter-day blessing to His children on earth.
 
I only have received the Holy Bible as revelation from God. Therefore, posting Mormon revelation has no meaning to me since I do not believe that Mormon revelation apart from Holy Scripture to be inspired from God. Could you just present the Mormon gospel in your own words, apart from the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and other Mormon books? When Mormon missionaries come to our doors, they quote Scripture. Please feel free to quote Holy Scripture in your presentation of the Mormon good news.
If you ask what WE believe, then we have to show you, not only what, but why. That includes stuff from the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants.

This is not done to prove to you that our beliefs are TRUE. After all, you don’t believe in either the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants. They are used only to show you what our beliefs are. For you to insist that we explain our beliefs without reference to writings that we accept as scripture is like a pagan asking you to explain your beliefs without referencing the bible or "Sacred Tradition,’ because of course the pagan doesn’t believe in either.

…and by the way, it would be rather like the sola scripturian insisting that you explain Catholicism by referencing ONLY the Bible. You can’t do it.

You shouldn’t have to do it, because you DO believe in Sacred Tradition.

…and we believe in the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. I suggest that you not handicap yourself, OR us, by insisting that we not quote from them when you ask questions that can only be answered BY quoting from them.

In other words, sir, get a clue.
 
In all gentleness and respect,
I have noticed that when someone says “with all due respect,’ or 'in all gentleness and respect,” he is about to show a sad dearth of either.
Scripture from my perspective is simply the Holy Bible. I’m okay with you using the LDS - KJV, Catholic Translations, and other mainstream Protestant translations.
How kind.
I will not accept Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible. On a side note, why do Mormons use the KJV and not the Joseph Smith Bible translation?
a. because it’s not finished.
b. because until very recently, the CoJCoLDS didn’t have the copywrite OR even as much as the former Reformed CoJCoLDS (now Community of Christ) had. We use it as a study guide, mostly.
I read parts of the Book of Mormon years ago, but quoting exclusive Mormon sources are irrelevant in our discussion of the Mormon gospel.
With all due respect, that’s the strangest statement I have ever read. It’s like saying that quoting exclusive New Testament sources are irrelevant in our discussion of the ministry of Christ. Who ELSE would you quote? Ed Decker?
I adhere to sola scriptura to discern truth from above. Personally, I have yet to see a Mormon present the Mormon gospel through the use of Biblical revealtion alone. It’s not there… and yes the other sheep is in reference to the Gentiles.
Of COURSE it’s not there! Just as Catholic Doctrine uses both the bible and Sacred Tradition, so does Mormonism use the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. You might argue about whether what we believe is TRUE, and insist that we show where our doctrines are not contradicted by the bible; that’s fair. But you cannot insist that we prove that we got our doctrines from the bible alone in the first place. We are NOT sola scripturians, if one is talking about bible only.

Does our doctrine contradict the bible? We don’t believe it does. Does it contradict what YOU believe the bible says? Probably. We would call that a problem of eisegesis vs. exegesis, and which one of us is doing what depends upon who is looking.

It is utterly illogical for you to insist that we explain our doctrines in terms of the bible only.
 
Before I respond, I would like to hear from some Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ in regards to the Mormon gospel. There is a reason for the doctrine of sola scriptura in regards to discerning truth from above. What makes the Catholic extra-biblical revelation more valid than Mormon extra-biblical revelation? Why is the Catholic belief of Apostolic Succession any more valid than the Mormon claim of apostolic succession through Modern Day Prophets? The claims are very similar from a Protestant perspective who holds to sola scriptura.

Sola Scriptura
by A.A. Hodge (1823-1886)

THE RULE OF FAITH & PRACTICE.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, Having Been Given By Inspiration of God, Are the All-Sufficient and Only Rule of Faith and Practice, and Judge of Controversies.
  1. What is meant by saying that the Scriptures are the only infallible rule of faith and practice?
Whatever God teaches or commands is of sovereign authority. Whatever conveys to us an infallible knowledge of his teachings and commands is an infallible rule. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are the only organs through which, during the present dispensation, God conveys to us a knowledge of his will about what we are to believe concerning himself, and what duties he requires of us.

Cambridge Declaration

Sola Scriptura: The Erosion Of Authority

Scripture alone is the inerrant rule of the church’s life, but the evangelical church today has separated Scripture from its authoritative function. In practice, the church is guided, far too often, by the culture. Therapeutic technique, marketing strategies, and the beat of the entertainment world often have far more to say about what the church wants, how it functions and what it offers, than does the Word of God. Pastors have neglected their rightful oversight of worship, including the doctrinal content of the music. As biblical authority has been abandoned in practice, as its truths have faded from Christian consciousness, and as its doctrines have lost their saliency, the church has been increasingly emptied of its integrity, moral authority and direction.

Rather than adapting Christian faith to satisfy the felt needs of consumers, we must proclaim the law as the only measure of true righteousness and the gospel as the only announcement of saving truth. Biblical truth is indispensable to the church’s understanding, nurture and discipline…

The work of the Holy Spirit in personal experience cannot be disengaged from Scripture. The Spirit does not speak in ways that are independent of Scripture. Apart from Scripture we would never have known of God’s grace in Christ. The biblical Word, rather than spiritual experience, is the test of truth.

Thesis One: Sola Scriptura

We reaffirm the inerrant Scripture to be the sole source of written divine revelation, which alone can bind the conscience. The Bible alone teaches all that is necessary for our salvation from sin and is the standard by which all Christian behavior must be measured. We deny that any creed, council or individual may bind a Christian’s conscience, that the Holy Spirit speaks independently of or contrary to what is set forth in the Bible, or that personal spiritual experience can ever be a vehicle of revelation.

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter I
Of the Holy Scripture
I. Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[5] those former ways of God’s revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[6]

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed
 
I think people can have the spirit even if they may believe some wrong ideas. I’ve known many Mormons who had the “fruits” of the spirit.
 
I think people can have the spirit even if they may believe some wrong ideas. I’ve known many Mormons who had the “fruits” of the spirit.
Yes, I agree.

I have come to realize that having a connection with the Holy Spirit is not sufficient alone for Salvation, but is very integral to our Salvation. One has to learn how to respond to the spirit’s calling correctly, given correct judgments of the earthly environment that we inhabit. We must marry our spirits with our reasoning, and our reasoning with our spirits. We must have discipline, and correct discernment.

It is NOT enough to have faith, it is Not enough to have Hope, it is NOT enough to have love… we must have all three.

It is not enough to love with the Heart, love with the mind or love with the spirit. We must balance all three, as if any of these three is out of alignment, then on the whole, we are lacking.
 
I
It is utterly illogical for you to insist that we explain our doctrines in terms of the bible only.
If the Holy Bible is not the final authoritative source of divine revelation from above, than anything goes. Mormonism is as valid as Hinduism, Islam, Wicca, Paganism, Jehovah Witness, or Atheism. How has God revealed Himself to his creation? God has spoken through His Son as recorded in the Scriptures. Hebrews 1 is Scripture proof to refute claims of Mormonism. God’s supreme revelation to mankind is His Son and not through apparent modern day prophets. The Jesus recorded in the Scriptures alone is the living Jesus Christ who saves sinners. The Hindu Jesus, the Muslim Jesus, and the Mormon Jesus are not the historic Jesus revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. - Hebrews 1

I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. - The Apostle Paul
 
Hebrews 1 is Scripture proof to refute claims of Mormonism. God’s supreme revelation to mankind is His Son and not through apparent modern day prophets. The Jesus recorded in the Scriptures alone is the living Jesus Christ who saves sinners.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. - Hebrews 1
  • The Apostle Paul
2nd Adam,
You seem to me to be somewhat of a pushover when it came to your having come up with your conclusions here.

Where did your translator come up with the word “but” in Hebrews 1:2? (The word should be “hath” or “has”.)

How do you hold to your belief in the Triune God when Hebrews 1:1-6 clearly shows that God the Father sent God the Son (a Separate Person who is the FirstBegotten) into the world and that the Son has “sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high”?

If you think prophecy was to end when Christ fulfilled His mission on earth, then how do you explain the book of Revelation? Do you throw that out in your personal theology?

If you will carefully read 1 Corinthians 10, you will find that the spiritual Rock of Israel was and is always Christ. Christ is the Rock. Any other Jesus than He Who is the Rock, the chief Corner Stone, the Head of the corner, is “another Jesus.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top