Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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GaryTaylor said:
“And no, I’m not going to address the issue of the SSPX, which you want to drag into the conversation. I’m throwing that red herring back to its mother.”

What about the Cardinals statement on the encyclical? Is that a no comment? Did seem to be relevant to you and the backbone of your argument? What about that red herring?
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  1. It wasn’t an encyclical
  2. The Cardinal was talking about Nostra Aetate, a Vatican II declaration.
  3. The quote I posted in response was from Lumen Gentium, a Vatican II dogmatic constitution.
Do you still want to go there???

I did not want to make you look ignorant, so I decided to leave it alone. But since you insist, I suppose I have no choice but to bring up those 3 points.

We can go ahead and see what the good Cardinal had to say about Dogmatic Constitutions, shall we…

“There is a huge difference between a great constitution,” like the Vatican II constitutions on the church, the liturgy and divine revelation, “and simple declarations,” like the Vatican II declarations on Christian education and the mass media. "
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/card-brandmuller-nostra-aetate-and.html

By the way, what the Cardinal calls the “great constitution” has this to say:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God

Would you still like to discuss Cardinal Brandmüller????
 
GaryTaylor said:
Are you serious? I adore my children I worship Jesus Christ.
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Gary, as in the case of the word “profess,” the context of the whole sentence, including “along with us,” gives us the meaning of “adore,” which, when referring to G-d, means “worship.”
 
Cardinal. You have no response but your continuous failing argument. You, the Cardinal or Webster? 😉
 
GaryTaylor said:
Are you serious? I adore my children I worship Jesus Christ.
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As a heart attack. As this CA blog on the difference between prayer and worship re: the saints explains (all emphasis mine):
The Catholic Church has gone to great lengths to define the essential difference between prayer to God and prayer to saints. You may have noticed that I have been using the English word “adoration” to refer to that honor we give to God alone. I do so because in Catholic tradition when using the English language, “worship” has often been used of honor given to the saints. “Adoration” is the term that has come to be used for God alone. “Worship” and “adoration” are English translations of terms the Church uses in her definitve teaching to define the difference between the honor that is given God and the honor proffered to the saints.
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The Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, in AD 787, referred to this “adoration” given to God alone as latreia (Greek) or latria (Latin). This comes from a Greek root that we find in Scripture in multiple places and in different words. In Gal. 5:20, for example, we find St. Paul condemning “idolatry”—idolatreia. This term literally means “idol-adoration.” Another example is found in Hebrews 9:6 where the inspired author refers to the ministry of priests in the Old Testament as offering their “ritual duties” to God (Gr.—latreias).
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The Council Fathers used latria in this sense of “adoration” that ought only to be given to God. When the Council considered praying to saints, the fathers taught that this prayer should include the honor that is owed them in justice,** but never adoration**. They chose to use douleia (Greek)or dulia (Latin) in order to make this distinction clear. Hence, we have an entirely different kind of prayer offered to the saints than to God.
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meltzerboy said:
Gary, as in the case of the word “profess,” the context of the whole sentence, including “along with us,” gives us the meaning of “adore,” which, when referring to G-d, means “worship.”
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Nothing more definitive which the Vatican surely stated they would supply, the Church probably wanted to make that non binding. Merely an ecumenical statement. I mean really I don’t think that’s worded as anything but implicit at best. In fact in the entire content context we still have unknown and shadows.
 
SoMissCatholic said:
As a heart attack. As this CA blog on the difference between prayer and worship re: the saints explains (all emphasis mine):
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I forgot to add after my quote of the CA blog that when used in the dogmatic constitution “adore” is being used in this theological sense to mean worship, i.e. that honor that is due to God alone. It is used in this same context when we speak of “Eucharistic adoration.”

If you don’t want to believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God, that is fine. There is nothing that I can say that is going to change your mind on that. However, that we do worship the same God is, in the most literal sense possible, precisely what the dogmatic constitution says. As such, even if it is not an infallible statement, as Catholics we are required to give religious assent to the teaching authority of the Magisterium.
 
Is anyone worshipping with muslims? I mean I don’t know. I see your debating this with fervor.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Is anyone worshipping with muslims? I mean I don’t know. I see your debating this with fervor.
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I didn’t say anything about worshiping with muslims. Where did you get that? I said that the language that the dogmatic constitution uses (“along with us adore the one and merciful God”) quite literally means “Muslims and Catholics worship the same God,” because, as the blog post I linked points out, in Catholic tradition “adore” is the term that has come to be used for the worship due to God alone.

Like I said, if you don’t believe it, then fine. I am simply trying to point out what the text actually says.
 
How come if you worship the same God why are you not worshipping with them? Oh, that’s where you don’t know “unknown” some fashion or degree of imperfect or unknown shadow or evil according to the CCC.
 
shad·ow
sháddō ]

1.darkened shape of something in light: a darkened shape on a surface that falls behind somebody or something blocking the light
2.darkness: relative darkness in a place that is being screened or blocked off from direct sunlight
3.hint of something: a slight suggestion or hint of something

Psalms…Valley of the Shadow,

Evil, in its most general context, is taken as the absence of that which is ascribed as being good. Often, evil is used to denote profound immorality

I say protection prayers for that, and they work. 👍
 
FrDavid96 said:
  1. It wasn’t an encyclical
  2. The Cardinal was talking about Nostra Aetate, a Vatican II declaration.
  3. The quote I posted in response was from Lumen Gentium, a Vatican II dogmatic constitution.
Do you still want to go there???

I did not want to make you look ignorant, so I decided to leave it alone. But since you insist, I suppose I have no choice but to bring up those 3 points.

We can go ahead and see what the good Cardinal had to say about Dogmatic Constitutions, shall we…

“There is a huge difference between a great constitution,” like the Vatican II constitutions on the church, the liturgy and divine revelation, “and simple declarations,” like the Vatican II declarations on Christian education and the mass media. "
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/card-brandmuller-nostra-aetate-and.html

By the way, what the Cardinal calls the “great constitution” has this to say:
But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God

Would you still like to discuss Cardinal Brandmüller????
Click to expand...
Are you a priest? :o
 
SoMissCatholic said:
I forgot to add after my quote of the CA blog that when used in the dogmatic constitution “adore” is being used in this theological sense to mean worship, i.e. that honor that is due to God alone. It is used in this same context when we speak of “Eucharistic adoration.”

If you don’t want to believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God, that is fine. There is nothing that I can say that is going to change your mind on that. However, that we do worship the same God is, in the most literal sense possible, precisely what the dogmatic constitution says. As such, even if it is not an infallible statement, as Catholics we are required to give religious assent to the teaching authority of the Magisterium.
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Well, said.
 
GaryTaylor said:
How come if you worship the same God why are you not worshipping with them? Oh, that’s where you don’t know “unknown” some fashion or degree of imperfect or unknown shadow or evil according to the CCC.
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Honestly, I’m not really sure I know what point you are trying to make here, but in an attempt to respond I would say that in a certain spiritual sense I do worship with them (as do you) in that “All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God.” (CCC 842).

More specifically though, I don’t physically worship with them because “In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them.” (CCC 844) Notice what the CCC says here. It does not say that they worship a different God. Rather, it says that through limits and errors men “disfigure the image of God,” that is, while acknowledging the one true God, they have an incorrect understanding (“image”) of God.

Like I said earlier, it is not mutually exclusive to say that Christians and Muslims worship the same God while at the same time acknowledging Islam as a false religion.
 
The Dogmatic Constitution said nothing of such in the most literal sense possible. And obviously nothing clearly nor binding. 🤷 Ridiculous.
 
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