Do Muslims Worship A Black Stone?

[hamba2han]

Why is this stone significant? Why all of the ceremony? Why is it important?

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she considers it as a holy child??

When the captain of a victorious football team kisses the trophy that has just been presented to him, does this mean that he considers it to be an object of worship??

Muslims believe that the Black Stone to have come from Paradise and the reason Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it is because he considered it to be a precious object… just as say an Olympic medal would be considered a precious object by just about every athlete who is competing for it.

And since Muslims are continually competing for a place in Paradise in the Hereafter, should it come as any surprise then that we too would want to kiss the Black Stone while we are still in this world?

 

[Zlatan]

What muslims dont admit is that the black stone worship comes directly from arab paganism, some pure monothiesm. I read the research of an islamic scholar who said there were numerous kaabas all of which had black stones during the days of polythiesm as the black stones were considered sacred

.There is no reason for someone in a pure monothiesm to kiss a pagan stone. Even the ahadith admits that polythiests used to worship stones

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661:
Narrated Abu Raja Al-Utaridi:
We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it. When the month of Rajab came, we used (to stop the military actions), calling this month the iron remover, for we used to remove and throw away the iron parts of every spear and arrow in the month of Rajab. Abu Raja’ added: When the Prophet sent with (Allah’s) Message, I was a boy working as a shepherd of my family camels. When we heard the news about the appearance of the Prophet, we ran to the fire, i.e. to Musailima al-Kadhdhab.

one muslim even hesitated about kissing the black stone because of this.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667:
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:
'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.”

it is an undenyable truth that the black stone worship comes form arab paganism.

 

[Angelos]

No, Muslims believe that the Black Stone was found by the one who built the Kaa’ba i.e. Prophet Abraham (pbuh).

"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." … [al-Qur’an, 16:123]

There is only One God who created one race of human beings, and communicated to them one message: submission to the will of God—known in Arabic as Islam. That message was conveyed to the first human beings on this earth, and reaffirmed by all of the prophets of God who came after them, down through the ages.

In the years after they were sent by God to their respective people, the Message that the Prophets taught gradually became lost and eventually the people went back to wrong and abhorrent practices such as idol-worship and associating partners with their Creator.

It is therefore no surprise then that at the time of Muhammad (pbuh), the pagan Arabs were worshiping idols in the Kaa’ba, despite them being the likely descendants of Abraham (pbuh) through his son, Ishmael (pbuh).

The essence of the message of Islam is that humankind should worship only One God by obeying His commandments, and should avoid worshiping God’s creation in any way, shape or form.

The account in the Koran does not mention the black stone, nor does it associate the stone with the first construction of the Cube.

 

[Angelos]

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she considers it as a holy child??

When the captain of a victorious football team kisses the trophy that has just been presented to him, does this mean that he considers it to be an object of worship??

These are false analogies though. You cannot compare a mother’s baby to a stone. Likewise, the captain knows what the trophy is (prize) and why he is given it. The trophy symbolises the team’s victory. Muslims do not even know why they venerate the stone or what it stands for.

 

[Dempsey1919]

When a mother kisses her baby, does it mean that she considers it as a holy child??

No, but the mother kisses her child out of love and devotion. In like manner, Muslims kiss this Black Stone out of love and devotion in imitation of Muhammad. The question is: why did Muhammad kiss the Stone in the first place?

Muslims believe that the Black Stone to have come from Paradise and the reason Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it is because he considered it to be a precious object… just as say an Olympic medal would be considered a precious object by just about every athlete who is competing for it.

Why did he consider it to be a precious object? Is this stone explicitly mentioned in the Quran? And out of all the Black Stones which existed in Arabia during the time of the Prophet, why did Muhammad choose to venerate this one?

Also, the claim that it came from Paradise is quite ridiculous. It is a naturally occuring rock that has deteriorated throughout time; hence the need for the metal supports. If the Stone was from heaven, I would think that it would stand the test of time.

It has been shown numerous times that the Black Stone is a former idol that was previously worshipped. This is the reason Muhammad kissed this object. Do you refute this claim?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Do Muslims Worship A Black Stone?

No, they don’t.

You don’t know why Muhammad (saaws) kissed it. You can make assumptions, and you can guess, but you don’t know. Just like you don’t know why he got up before the crack of dawn every morning to pray.

 

[Dempsey1919]

You don’t know why Muhammad (saaws) kissed it.

But we do know that the Stone was once a pagan idol that was worshipped by pre-Islamic Arabs. We also know that the Stone was known by the tribe of Muhammad, and that they were once pagan. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that Muhammad also worshipped this Stone as a child. Afterall, Muslims attest to the fact that Muhammad searched for God and spent many hours alone praying and thinking before he received any revelations. During this spiritual journey, Muhammad would have considered many religions, especially the religion of his community: paganism.

 

[Sister_Amy]

But we do know that the Stone was once a pagan idol that was worshipped by pre-Islamic Arabs. We also know that the Stone was known by the tribe of Muhammad, and that they were once pagan. Therefore, it would be logical to assume that Muhammad also worshipped this Stone as a child. Afterall, Muslims attest to the fact that Muhammad searched for God and spent many hours alone praying and thinking before he received any revelations. During this spiritual journey, Muhammad would have considered many religions, especially the religion of his community: paganism.

Pagans and polytheists and idol-worshippers also circled the Ka’ba before Muhammad, but that’s not why he did it.

All you have for your position is assumptions. As much as I hate the book No God but God by Reza Aslan, I think you could learn a lot from it on this point. Praying is not the same as considering many religions. It’s not like he had no religion until his 30s and then he started shopping for one. The man grew up in the religious center of the Arab world, in the leading tribe which maintained the Ka’ba. And he utterly condemned all forms of idol worship. So your assumptions even are ridiculously weak.

Come learn about Islam. Like the X-files… the truth is out there… lol

 

[Dempsey1919]

Pagans and polytheists and idol-worshippers also circled the Ka’ba before Muhammad, but that’s not why he did it.

Why did he do it?

All you have for your position is** assumptions**.

We have the proof to show that the pagan Arabs worshipped black stones in the Kabaa before Islam. We know that the family of Muhammad were once pagan. Therefore, we know that Muhammad would have been exposed to this religion.

Furthermore, you have even admitted that the pagans circled the Kabaa and kissed the Black Stone. Muhammad would have known this. What were his reasons for adopting pagan ceremonies?

It’s not like he had no religion until his 30s and then he started shopping for one. The man grew up in the religious center of the Arab world, in the leading tribe which maintained the Ka’ba.

What religion did Muhammad practice until his 30s? Judaism? Christianity? Paganism? The tribe to which Muhammad belonged were pagans. Would I be wrong to think that there was a chance that Muhammad was brought up as a pagan, and then later rejected this belief system?

So your assumptions even are ridiculously weak.

Which assumptions? The assumption that Muhammad knew the pagan ceremonies of Mecca? The assumption that he knew the significance of the Black Stone to the pagan Arabs? Or the assumption that the child Muhammad was taught about paganism by his pagan relatives and friends?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why did he do it?

For the same reason Abraham did it. He was commanded by God.

We have the proof to show that the pagan Arabs worshipped black stones in the Kabaa before Islam. We know that the family of Muhammad were once pagan. Therefore, we know that Muhammad would have been exposed to this religion.

You might not really ‘know’ what you’re talking about. First of all, black “stones?” There were a number of idols in the Ka’ba. There were even idols of Jesus and Mary in the Ka’ba. The family of Muhammad, or more specifically his tribe the Quraysh were in charge managing the pagan rituals that took place in Mecca. Of course he was therefore exposed to those rituals. He utterly condemned them.

Furthermore, you have even admitted that the pagans circled the Kabaa and kissed the Black Stone. Muhammad would have known this. What were his reasons for adopting pagan ceremonies?

Be careful when you quote me. I didn’t say they kissed the Black Stone. (And I didn’t say it because I don’t know of that happening.) I said they circled the Ka’ba. In fact during his lifetime there was a dispute about which tribe would get to place the black stone in the Ka’ba and he resolved it by having them all lift it on a blanket.

But anyway, here’s what you should understand. Muhammad did not adopt pagan ceremonies. The ceremonies had been corrupted by pagans, if you will–the pilgrimage rites began with Abraham. But by the time of Muhammad they had been overcome with the idol-worship prevalent among the Arabs. And by the end of Muhammad’s life, those rituals had been purified if you will, restored to how they were originally conducted, before God.

What religion did Muhammad practice until his 30s? Judaism? Christianity? Paganism? The tribe to which Muhammad belonged were pagans. Would I be wrong to think that there was a chance that Muhammad was brought up as a pagan, and then later rejected this belief system?

Look up what a ‘Hanif’ is. His tribe were pagans, that’s for sure. And he absolutely rejected that. (Which means he wouldn’t have adopted their rituals later… gosh, so simple!)

Which assumptions? The assumption that Muhammad knew the pagan ceremonies of Mecca? The assumption that he knew the significance of the Black Stone to the pagan Arabs? Or the assumption that the child Muhammad was taught about paganism by his pagan relatives and friends?

The assumption that you know anything at all. You said before that he would have done this and would have done that.

That Muhammad knew what pagans were doing should be obvious. Just read the Qur’an (actually, read the Meccan chapters) and you’ll see how those pagan rituals are utterly condemned.

 

[R_not]

Do Muslims Worship A Black Stone?

No, they don’t.

You don’t know why Muhammad (saaws) kissed it. You can make assumptions, and you can guess, but you don’t know. Just like you don’t know why he got up before the crack of dawn every morning to pray.

But we do know why he kissed it - he used to kiss it when he was a pagan and he just couldn’t seem to let it go when he thought up islam so he made it a part of the islamic rituals.

You guys don’t like to admit that mohammed was a pagan, and worshiped a lot of gods before he thought up islam. He almost threw in three goddesses before one of his friends said it might be best if he didn’t do that.

Since you muslims are not reading the posted websites, I will quote the article - if you want the whole article it is here:
bible.ca/islam/islam-allahs-daughters.htm

**It is an undeniable fact of history that before Muhammed was born, the moon god “al-Ilah” (Allah) had three daughters named al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat. The first two were even named after their father. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca, where Allah’s shrine was located. **

Of course, mohammed said that he was tricked by the devil when he added those goddesses. It seems that if he got tricked by the devil - the devil wouldn’t worry about 3 goddesses, but would indeed be adding all the murder and mahem passages instead!

But, then we get into abrogated verses again. If abrogation is not true then the 3 goddesses would still be a part of islam - but abrogation is true so they are not a part of islam. Oh it is rather confusing, but only if we don’t realize that abrogation is just mohammed forgetting what he said from one instance to the other. So what mohammed did was make it sound like his moon god couldn’t remember from one day to the next.

Another quote from the article:
Historical notes:

It is an undeniable fact of history that before Muhammed was born, the moon god “al-Ilah” (Allah) had three daughters named al-Lat, al-Uzza and Manat. The first two were even named after their father. Each daughter had a separate shrine near Mecca, where Allah’s shrine was located.
As Muhammad grew weary from evangelizing his new religion with little success, he was tricked by the devil into adding a verse in the Koran that commanded Muslims to pray to Allah’s three pagan daughters Lat, Uzza and Manat. The pagan female trinity was immediately accepted without dissent and the passage was considered part of the revealed Koran. However some time later, Muhammad got a revelation from God that the verse should be removed. After repenting of the error, Muhammad was comforted by God.
Such “after the fact corrective revelations” are very common with cults. Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons also received an “after the fact corrective revelation” from God retracted the previous “divine command” allowing polygamy.
The historical information confirming the “Satanic verses” is so vast and sure, only the desperate blind would deny the evidence. Undeniably factual information regarding the Satanic verses comes from respected Muslim scholars like at-Tabari and Ibn Sa’d who wrote biographical and historical accounts of the life of Muhammad.
Yet some Muslims actually reject the whole “daughter-gate” story as untrue. These are an extremist minority, you know, the ones who don’t believe youth should be taught history or science, but spend 8 hours a day memorizing the Koran. Yet many Muslims are trained to habitually disregard factual world history when it conflicts with the Koran. Take the fact of Christ’s crucifixion. Even the Jews agree he was crucified, but the Koran says it was a case of mistaken identity. So Muslims reject the universal record of history and the Bible, but believe the Koran is true. Amazingly, some Islamic apologists actually deny “daughter-gate” ever happened. Yet their only argument is, “The Koran says it cannot be tampered with and that Satan cannot interfere with the revelation process.” So, these extremists must either admit that the final prophet revealed a Koranic passage whose origin was Satan, or simply rewrite their own history and deny the whole “daughter-gate” scandal itself.
Exactly what are the Satanic verses:

 

[Psalter]

Do Muslims Worship A Black Stone?

You don’t know why Muhammad (saaws) kissed it.

…And apparently you don’t know why Mahomet kissed it, either.

 

[Booklover]

…And apparently you don’t know why Mahomet kissed it, either.

Her brilliant reply was that Muhammad kissed it because Abraham did it! She claims God commanded it!

Vickie

 

[Psalter]

Her brilliant reply was that Muhammad kissed it because Abraham did it! She claims God commanded it!

Vickie

And why did God command Abraham to kiss a black stone? The Islamic god is a supremely irrational being.

 

[Angelos]

Before debating the origin of the black stone and the reasons for its veneration, Muslims must concur on who first built the Cube. Islamic tradition dates the construction of this former pagan temple to Adam whereas the Koran claims Abraham and Ishmael were the first people to build it as a shrine. More, there is nothing in the Koran that associates the black stone with Abraham .

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Do Muslims Worship A Black Stone?

No, they don’t.

You don’t know why Muhammad (saaws) kissed it. You can make assumptions, and you can guess, but you don’t know. Just like you don’t know why he got up before the crack of dawn every morning to pray.

If we know why he did it, is of no importance, as we are not going to imitate him.

If you know why he did it is of great importance, and the topic of the thread.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

For the same reason Abraham did it. He was commanded by God.

according to whom?

You might not really ‘know’ what you’re talking about. First of all, black “stones?” There were a number of idols in the Ka’ba. There were even idols of Jesus and Mary in the Ka’ba.

There were icons.
And according to your sources Muhammad covered them with his body and ordered “destroy everything else.” They evidently remained there until the second fitna/civil war.

The family of Muhammad, or more specifically his tribe the Quraysh were in charge managing the pagan rituals that took place in Mecca. Of course he was therefore exposed to those rituals. He utterly condemned them.

He particpated in them, including sacrifices to the idols, according to your own sources.

Be careful when you quote me. I didn’t say they kissed the Black Stone. (And I didn’t say it because I don’t know of that happening.) I said they circled the Ka’ba. In fact during his lifetime there was a dispute about which tribe would get to place the black stone in the Ka’ba and he resolved it by having them all lift it on a blanket.

But anyway, here’s what you should understand. Muhammad did not adopt pagan ceremonies. The ceremonies had been corrupted by pagans, if you will–the pilgrimage rites began with Abraham. But by the time of Muhammad they had been overcome with the idol-worship prevalent among the Arabs. And by the end of Muhammad’s life, those rituals had been purified if you will, restored to how they were originally conducted, before] God.

So like the “corruption” of previous scriptures, the pilgrim rites are preserved on a tablet in heaven?

Look up what a ‘Hanif’ is. His tribe were pagans, that’s for sure. And he absolutely rejected that. (Which means he wouldn’t have adopted their rituals later… gosh, so simple!)

then why do you still have them? So simple.

The assumption that you know anything at all. You said before that he would have done this and would have done that.

That Muhammad knew what pagans were doing should be obvious. Just read the Qur’an (actually, read the Meccan chapters) and you’ll see how those pagan rituals are utterly condemned.

and yet they are still being performed.

 

[Dempsey1919]

You might not really ‘know’ what you’re talking about. First of all, black “stones?”

I guess you’re right. I’m no expert on Islam. However, I am sure Bukhari knows what he is talking about. Re-read this quote from the Hadith:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 661
Narrated Abu Raja Al-Utaridi:

We used to worship stones, and when we found a better stone than the first one, we would throw the first one and take the latter, but if we could not get a stone then we would collect some earth (i.e. soil) and then bring a sheep and milk that sheep over it, and perform the Tawaf around it.

We used to worship stones. Notice the plural? This means that there was more than one stone. The Arabs used to worship stones, and when they would find a better stone, they would discard the old one. The Black Stone was one of the stones which the pagans used to worship. Muhammad knew this because his tribe was responsible for it’s care. I know this is true because you have told me:

The family of Muhammad, or more specifically his tribe the Quraysh were in charge managing the pagan rituals that took place in Mecca. Of course he was therefore exposed to those rituals. He utterly condemned them.

If Muhammad “utterly condemned” the worship of stones, why did he continue to venerate the Black Stone, and why do Muslims continue to do so? I would like you to give us a full explanation, including quotes from the Quran.

But anyway, here’s what you should understand. Muhammad did not adopt pagan ceremonies. The ceremonies had been corrupted by pagans, if you will–the pilgrimage rites began with Abraham.

Can you prove this? What does the Quran say about this? Is there any evidence to prove that Abraham instituted these pilgrimage rites? Furthermore, why would Abraham order his descendants to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? His legitimate descendants, the Jews, have never made this pilgrimage. If this pilgrimage was important, surely God would have ordered his Chosen People, the Jews, to visit Mecca.

Why was Mecca significant to Abraham?

Look up what a ‘Hanif’ is. His tribe were pagans, that’s for sure. And he absolutely rejected that. (Which means he wouldn’t have adopted their rituals later… gosh, so simple!)

I would like you to answer my original question. What religion did Muhammad practice before the beginning of Islam? Feel free to explain what a “Hanif” is.

The assumption that you know anything at all.

No need to insult me. I am the first to admit that I don’t know it all. However, I have arrived at my conclusions based on logic.

If I don’t know what I am talking about, then perhaps you should do a better job explaining it to us. Afterall, you are a Muslim and you should be able to answer simple questions regarding your faith.

I look forward to reading your reply.

 

[R_not]

No need to insult me. I am the first to admit that I don’t know it all. However, I have arrived at my conclusions based on logic.

If I don’t know what I am talking about, then perhaps you should do a better job explaining it to us. Afterall, you are a Muslim and you should be able to answer simple questions regarding your faith.

I look forward to reading your reply.

that is the problem with islam - it is not based on logic. It is only based on a blind submission to its allah (which is only mohammed’s alter ego).

The best explanation that I have gotten why anyone could believe in islam, or follow it, is by this Iranian ex-muslim, Ali Sina.

page 4, Introduction of ‘Understanding muhammad, A Psychobiography’

’Although this book is not addressed to muslims, it is mainly for them I have written it. As a Persian proverb says, I spoke to the door so the wall can hear. Enough has been said about mohammed being a looter, a mass murderer, a marauding gangster, a pedophile, an assasin, a lustful womanizer, and what not. Muslims hear all that, and continue believing in him without blinking. Oddly, some of them even claim tha after they read my articles on the internet (the Articles by Ali Sina in www.faithfreedom.org)), their ‘faith in islam grew.’ They have accepted mohammed as a surpeior being and the ‘Mercy of god among mankind.’ They do not judge him by the standards of human morality and conscience. On the contrary, they believee that it was he who set the standards. For them, right and wrong, good and evil are not determined by the Golden Rule, a concept that is alien to the muslim psyche, but by halal (permitted) and haram(forbidden), wanton religious values that have no basis in logic, ethics or morality. muslims are genuinely incapable of questioning islam. they dismiss every doubt and consider things that are incomprehensible as a ‘test’ of god. To pass that test and to prove their faith, all they have to do is believe in every nonsense and absurdity unquestioningly.

I have never gotten a good explanation from practicing muslims on most things in islam. the best sources, I have found, for things in islam are from ex-muslims who recognize the problems in islam and have left it and are not bound by da’wa and/or deception, or even non-muslims that are in full appeasement mode.

This excerpt might not answer your question directly, but it will answer why it is hard for muslims to do so and that they are incapable of doing what we are asking of them. It is a pity, but from all the posts that I see - Ali Sina explained it very simply.

 

[dolphinlove]

I will continue to claim they worship a big black stone until they stop accusing Catholics of Idol worship.