Do Protestants Really Hate Catholicism?

[LizS]

Regarding hatred of Protestants towards Catholics
I have found many Hate websites on the internet which include the words “Danger”, “Satan”, “Babylon” etc with reference to the Catholic Church. I have also experienced it personally - in fact I did not realise how much there was until I converted to the Catholic Church from the CofE (British MP Ann Widdecombe, also a convert, expressed this feeling too on the TV programme “A History of Christianity”). Sometimes this is due to a misunderstanding of Catholic practices, and sometimes it is down to basic labelling of different sectors of society (eg that which divides people in Ireland and Scotland, which has little to do with faith). But it has to be said that there are also many more out there who do not hate Catholicism at all, and are as keen on Christian unity as is the Catholic Church.

Regarding Scripture and its Interpretation

Dei Verbum is profitable reading for accurate understanding of Church teaching on Scripture and its interpretation - available online from the Vatican website –
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html or just type Dei Verbum in your search engine!

Note in particular (underlining is mine):-

1. Re: should interpretation of scripture be literal/literalistic?
   Chapter III para 12 – “However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.” …….therefore the intended meaning of the writer in the time it was written is fundamental to understanding what God wishes to reveal.
2. Re: Do you think that new church doctrine would qualify as a revelation?
   Chapter I para 4 – “The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive covenant, will never pass away and we now await no further new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ (see 1 Tim. 6:14 and Tit. 2:13).”
   …… therefore divine Revelation is complete, other than Christ’s second coming (note the term “public revelation”, as opposed to personal revelations such as that received by St Faustina etc)
3. Re: who can interpret scripture?
   Chapter II para 10 – “the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed”
   ……There is much in this chapter, and should be read in its entirety. That the Catholic Church claims sole authority is hotly debated by non Catholics, and I do understand why. Although DV states the divine origin of its authority, it is nevertheless necessary anyway. Interpretation can vary so much from person to person, and this is obvious in the sometimes huge differences found in interpretations of different denominations. With such differences, how can there be any unity in faith? In fact it is such individual interpretation that has lead to some groups not even believing in the divinity of Christ (eg. Jehovah’s Witnesses). This is not to say that the Church is never open to discussion on interpretation.
4. Also note the importance of sacred Tradition (another area contested by non Catholics)
   Chapter II para 8 – “Therefore the Apostles, handing on what they themselves had received, warn the faithful to hold fast to the traditions which they have learned either by word of mouth or by letter (see 2 Thess. 2:15), and to fight in defence of the faith handed on once and for all (see Jude 1:3). Now what was handed on by the Apostles includes everything which contributes toward the holiness of life and increase in faith of the peoples of God; and so the Church, in her teaching, life and worship, perpetuates and hands on to all generations all that she herself is, all that she believes”
   …Read the whole chapter for best understanding. Scripture records what the early Church held as tradition. Tradition is an authentic interpreter of scripture. The two are inextricably interlinked and one does not replace the other.

Although not understood or accepted by many non Catholics, Catholic teaching, rituals and practices are all firmly rooted in scripture.

 

[SteveGC]

**HOPE:

1: to cherish a desire with anticipation
trust
transitive verb
1: to desire with expectation of obtainment
2: to expect with confidence : trust**

I would contend that having a “desire” for something is not equivalent to being “absolutely certain” about something.

Here’s what my dictionary says about hope:

–verb (used with object) 6. to look forward to with desire and reasonable confidence.
7. to believe, desire, or trust: I hope that my work will be satisfactory.

–verb (used without object) 8. to feel that something desired may happen: We hope for an early spring.
9. Archaic. to place trust; rely (usually fol. by in).

Now, if by using the word “hope”, an “absolute assurance” believer means to say “expect to achieve with full confidence” then OK. Perhaps this is what he meant by “hope”, but I don’t see anything suggesting absolute confidence in any definition of “hope”.

It’s semantics, and I know it doesn’t refute a once-saved-always-saved Christian’s feeling about being assured salvation. It was just interesting to me that the word “hope” was used, which is more of a Catholic outlook on salvation. It makes me wonder just HOW sure a OSAS Christian really IS.

God Bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

**HOPE:

1: to cherish a desire with anticipation
trust
transitive verb
1: to desire with expectation of obtainment
2: to expect with confidence : trust**

Bellus,
Thank you for this. Our pastor preaches on hope . He says our Hope is confidence. It is not like “wishing” as it is usually used, as in “I hope I win the lottery.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

It’s semantics, and I know it doesn’t refute a once-saved-always-saved Christian’s feeling about being assured salvation. It was just interesting to me that the word “hope” was used, which is more of a Catholic outlook on salvation. ** It makes me wonder just HOW sure** a OSAS Christian really IS.God Bless

It seems to me that for those who believe in OSAS, there is no such confidence, because those that SEEM to be saved were never really saved if they slide. So how do you know you are saved?

 

[wlychan64]

And I am praying that you will be united with our Lord Jesus Christ in a very personal way.

The following website will give you a wonderful pastoral letter on the Holy Eucharist and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Please read it slowly in sections. Think about it. Pray about it. Let our Lord Jesus Christ speak to you.


Please go to the left column and click “Meet Bishop Doran.” Then click Bishop Doran’s “Pastoral Letter on the Eucharist”, 1997.

Or try

If you have any questions, please ask me.

Blessings,
granny

All human beings belong at the foot of Jesus on the cross.

Dear Granny,

I am very touched for your concern and care.
I will check with the website and learn more about the Mass.
For what you have done, you bring honour not only to your Church (Roman Catholic) but also to all others who expect sincerity from Catholic.

Best wishes always
wlychan64:signofcross

 

[SteveGC]

It seems to me that for those who believe in OSAS, there is no such confidence, because those that SEEM to be saved were never really saved if they slide. So how do you know you are saved?

I guess that’s just it…the only one’s who profess it are the one’s that have yet to slide.

The ones that do? Well, I think they become Catholic

No. Seriously, I think that it’s an absolute assurance in their life, because they know they must confess and in some way, repent, of any future sin in their life - and if they don’t repent, then they must question their original proclamation of faith.

Except for the “absolute assurance” mentality, they hold to more of a Catholic idea of salvation than they would like to admit.

God Bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

oh i did refer to james chapter 2 and i understand what works are you just overlooked that i am sure, i love you man.

God bless
Jerry Marino;4935625:

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

oh well i stand on the promise of God.

Are you suggesting that James 2 contradicts the promise of God?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say “faith alone” except in James 2 where is say NOT faith alone! It is faith put into action. * Faith is a work*.

James 2:14-26*
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? Rhetorical question, I think James means NO
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
**Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? **22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. *

 

[qui_est_ce]

The ones that do? Well, I think they become Catholic

And that brings up the subject of what happens to fallen away Catholics!

 

[SteveGC]

Bellus,
Thank you for this. Our pastor preaches on hope . He says our Hope is confidence. It is not like “wishing” as it is usually used, as in “I hope I win the lottery.”

And I would agree, there is a certain amount of confidence we infer when we profess our “hope”.

My contention, for the OSAS crowd, is that it does not infer an “absolute assurance”, but rather a “moral” one, which is a Catholic mentality

God Bless

 

[qui_est_ce]

And I would agree, there is a certain amount of confidence we infer when we profess our “hope”.

My contention, for the OSAS crowd, is that it does not infer an “absolute assurance”, but rather a “moral” one, which is a Catholic mentality

God Bless

If it is not too off topic, explain to me “moral” assurance. I agree with you about the absolute assurance - I guess havening been raised Catholic, it seems a bit arrogant to me.

Yet I believe in the promises of Jesus to Margaret Mary Alocoque and Our Lady of Fatima. We will be given the opportunity to repent before our death.

 

[SteveGC]

If it is not too off topic, explain to me “moral” assurance. I agree with you about the absolute assurance - I guess havening been raised Catholic, it seems a bit arrogant to me.

Yet I believe in the promises of Jesus to Margaret Mary Alocoque and Our Lady of Fatima. We will be given the opportunity to repent before our death.

Simply put, Catholics do not enjoy a definitive knowledge of their eternal destination at any projected future moment in time of their life.

But we do enjoy a “moral certitude” of salvation. That is, we will enjoy heaven with God IF we perservere in our faith until the end. (2 Peter 1:10).

It’s a certitude for us, but it does not presume our future by proclaiming today what it will be. It hopes with a reasonable confidence.

God Bless

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I can’t put words in Bellus’s mouth, but I can guess the response. Most Protestants either don’t recognize the Sacraments at all, or only see them as ordinances which are symbolic. Of course, they have to deal with John chapter 6.

The “standard” Protestant response to John chapter 6 is to cite verse 63:

“The flesh is useless,” they say, therefore there is no Real Presence in the Eucharist, and it does not convey grace.

But WHOSE flesh is useless?

They have to answer “Jesus” to that question, or they lose the argument.

If Jesus’s flesh was of no avail, then He didn’t die for your sins, did He? Whoops, you just denied the Atonement! (Besides that, if you back up a verse, you’ll see that He is no longer talking about the Eucharist, but rather, about faith.)

I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. So that’s why I became Catholic.

When Our Lord said “This is My body,” He MEANT what He said. Believe in miracles!

I do believe in miricals but I dont see that you have to join a church to believe,you know what i mean? I talk to God quite alot and pray alot every day. This is my flesh symbolicly means when you recieve it represents the body that was broken for you respect it and let it never slip your mind of the blood atoinment do it in rememberance of me.Never forget how I suffered and died for you do this and remember me. Love of Christ Nancy

 

[Allymom]

to answer your first question due to a post by one of my dear friends questioned on how can be sure of my salvation and i was not shouting, i don’t need to dig into the background or teachings of the catholic church.

you have misread my post about going to church but i will leave at that too bad you don’t share my “absolute assurance mentality” cause Jesus came to give us life through his death and by believing that was his purpose in life (to die) and ressurection by the power of God, he conquered over death and through him we (believers) also share in the victory, that is our hope. now if there is something you or others might want to add as to what Jesus did on the cross and deminish.

you state in your post that ‘We can have trust in our salvation if we are truly picking up our crosses, following Him, and His Church.’ by this statement seems to me you are basing your salvation on what you can do by picking your cross.

i understand the concept of picking up our cross and this is my understanding of my cross: i died to my sinful self and daily i walk denying myself and letting the Holy Spirit teach me.

this conversation along with others on this thread has taken a turn, i don’t hate you that is why i write on here speaking of Christ and salvation.

Assurance: 1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

so while you trust in your salvation, i’ll trust in God’s and while you have moral assurance, i know that i have eternal life. it is not something that i made up, i just trust in the Word of God.

God bless you

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.”

If we want to be saved from our sins, there are things that we must do in order to receive the free gift of salvation. We must individually work out our salvation, as the apostle Paul instructs. This obviously is going to require obedience. The Hebrew writer said of Christ that, “.having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation TO ALL WHO OBEY HIM” (Hebrews 5:9; Emphasis Mine.


When I was little we sang blessed assurance in Church. The blessed assurance is Jesus, but we have a part in this!:bowdown2:

 

[SteveGC]

I do believe in miricals but I dont see that you have to join a church to believe,you know what i mean? I talk to God quite alot and pray alot every day. This is my flesh symbolicly means when you recieve it erpresents the body that was broken for you respect it and let it never slpi your mind of the blood atoinment do it in rememberance of me.Never forget how I suffered and died for you do this and remember me. Love of Christ Nancy

If it were merely symbolic, Nancy, the apostles wouldn’t have turned and walked away when Christ talked about this very subject. They would have understood right away, and been agreeable. But they weren’t.

It’s not that you have to join a church to believe. Rather, you believe, therefore you are part of the church. It’s automatic. The only problem is that it’s supposed to be everyone in ONE Church, ONE Body of Christ (with Christ Himself as the inseparable Head). The one Christ instituted. That’s the problem. Man divided God’s House, and now everyone sees “church” as unnecessary, since there are so many. But Church still is, and always will be, integral to belief in God. We just have to figure out which Church is the authentic one from God, the one which teaches uniformly, consistently and authoritatively through the protection of the Holy Spirit, on all Christian aspects of faith and morals. And when we finally find it…it’s not about “joining” it…it’s about returning home TO it.

God Bless

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

If it were merely symbolic, Nancy, the apostles wouldn’t have turned and walked away when Christ talked about this very subject.

You’re posting some very excellent messages here, Steve, but I have to make one correction to the above. It was some of Jesus’ disciples who walked away, not His Apostles. They were as confused as those who walked away, but they had faith in Jesus and couldn’t walk away. He asked them if they were going to bail out, too. Peter replied, “Where would we go. We have come to believe, we are convinved you have the words of everlasting life.”

 

[qui_est_ce]

Simply put, Catholics do not enjoy a definitive knowledge of their eternal destination at any projected future moment in time of their life.

But we do enjoy a “moral certitude” of salvation. That is, we will enjoy heaven with God IF we perservere in our faith until the end. (2 Peter 1:10).

It’s a certitude for us,** but it does not presume our future by proclaiming today what it will be. It hopes with a reasonable confidence.**
God Bless

Thanks Steve, you put it into words for me. I think what bothers me about the “certitude of salvation” is that it seems to leave no room for growth in the faith. Like once you have it, that’s it. Faith has to be living and growing. It can’t just sit there. Faith is organic, it is living, alive, growing up.

Jesus wishes ALL to be saved, He died for ALL, but not ALL will accept His saving Grace. It reminds me of the Sower and the Seed. Our faith must be nourished and cultivated in order to keep it alive and growing. Or the mustard seed. It starts out as the smallest of seeds and then grows until it houses the birds of the air.

God Bless!

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Hi, Jerry. There have been several excellent replies by others to your message so I’ll just cover a few points.

ferde my friend, what does it say about faith? nothing.

v.37 says Then the righteous will answer Him…

v. 46 says …but the righteous to eternal life.

so who is righteous?

According to the Lord, it’s those who hear the word of God and keep it. Applying that to Mt. 25:31-46, it’s clear who the righteous are.

are you implying that one who does these works that Jesus states (feeding, drink, clothing, sheltering visiting) is righteous?

No implication at all. I state it emphatically. The text is clear, Jerry. Talking around it and trying to refute it with carefully selected snippets of Scripture which guide us away from the truth is not enlightening. It is creating confusion in order to avoid dealing with the message of the text which is the message of the Lord. 'Do these things, you go to heaven; don’t do them, you go to hell. Nothing ambiguous about that, is there?

please don’t take my word for it but look into the Word of God about faith. let’s look at the most famous verse that is always displayed on t.v. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

There are many passages in Scripture that seem to say faith is all that’s required and there are many others which say works are essential. Catholics believe both are indispensable for salvation and that’s based on Scripture. See, James 2:24.

The verse you cite above depends on the correct interpretation of “…whosoever believes in him…” ‘Believing in Him’ includes obeying Him; doing what he tells us to do.

secondly, the promise not from me but from God himself, now God does not change his word so i stand on his promise which is whoever believes in him (the Son) shall not perish but have eternal life.

No offense, Jerry, but you stand on a very convenient misinterpretion of God’s promise. You have accepted the lies of the 16th Century ex-Catholics who rebelled against the Church, radically revised Scripture to suit their newly invented beliefs and formed their own sects, which immediately began to split up into more personal interpretations and more sects. That’s still going on today to the tune of over 34,000 Christian sects, all claiming to teach the truth. Do you really believe that’s what the Lord intended when He said, “Let them be one, Father, as you and I are one.”?

so how can one become righteous in the site of God?

By hearing His Word and keeping it, among other things.

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

wow, abram simply by believing in the promise from God, God credited to abram as righteousness.

Not simply by believing the promise of God, but by keeping His word in his willingness to obey God by sacrificing his only son. That was a ‘work.’

people read hebrews 11 it’s all about faith.

Paul’s letters were completed well before Matthew wrote his Gospel. If Paul had read Mt. 25:31-46, I guarantee you he would have been a little more careful in his discussion of faith. The way it is now is the reason protestants love Paul and not only quote him more than they do the Lord, they use him to REFUTE the Lord. Which, IMO, is blasphemy.

so far on the promises of God, i have not found that works is included in the salvation equation,

"You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24. Now you know, Jerry.

oh thank God for how simple he has made it for us!

A little too simple, I think. It is the protestant trap to take Paul’s words about faith and believe they are saved by declaration. It is a true fallacy, Jerry. Not a bit or truth in it.

God bless you.

 

[DavidCatechumen]

Hi Nancy,

I do believe in miricals but I dont see that you have to join a church to believe,you know what i mean?

It’s true you don’t have to be in a particular church to have faith, but since grace alone–not faith alone–is the means of salvation, you have to cooperate with the grace of God working in you to obtain salvation. So once God calls you to Rome, you gotta go. And only you and God know when that time will come.

I talk to God quite alot and pray alot every day.

But remember that salvation requires more than just prayer–you must repent and be baptized, and then let Jesus into your heart and follow His lead.

This is my flesh symbolicly means when you recieve it represents the body that was broken for you respect it and let it never slip your mind of the blood atoinment do it in rememberance of me.Never forget how I suffered and died for you do this and remember me.

The problem with the symbolic “memorial” view of the Lord’s Supper is that it’s not Biblical. Jesus did say, “do this in memory of Me,” but that’s not all He said. If you haven’t already read all of John chapter 6, please do so.

Now flip over to 1 Corinthians 11. Here is verse 27:

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord.

There is an atheist professor named P.Z. Myers. He hates Catholics. Suppose that he takes a statue of the Pope and beheads it to show his contempt for the Church.

Is he answerable for the body of the Pope (i.e. guilty of murder)? No, because the statue of the Pope is not the body of the Pope.

Now suppose P.Z. Myers takes a consecrated Eucharistic Host and pierces it with rusty nails, throws it in a can with coffee grinds and throws this mess out on the street for dogs to eat. (You don’t have to ‘suppose’ this; while he never did anything to a statue of the Pope, he actually did desecrate the Blessed Sacrament.)

Is he answerable for the body and blood of the Lord? Read the Bible again (1 Cor. 11:27-29):

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. [28] Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. [29] For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgement against themselves.

The Bible says the answer is YES. So… how can one disrespect the Eucharist and be answerable for the Body and Blood of the Lord if the Body and Blood of the Lord are not there?

Upon realizing this, I began the process of converting to Catholicism.

Love of Christ Nancy

Peace be with you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

So… how can one disrespect the Eucharist and be answerable for the Body and Blood of the Lord if the Body and Blood of the Lord are not there?

Upon realizing this, I began the process of converting to Catholicism.

Peace be with you. Wow, great reply. Maybe you could start catechizing Catholics?

 

[SteveGC]

You’re posting some very excellent messages here, Steve, but I have to make one correction to the above. It was some of Jesus’ disciples who walked away, not His Apostles. They were as confused as those who walked away, but they had faith in Jesus and couldn’t walk away. He asked them if they were going to bail out, too. Peter replied, “Where would we go. We have come to believe, we are convinved you have the words of everlasting life.”

absolutely right. Disciples, not apostles. thanks for the correction