Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

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TrueLight said:
No, it doesn’t help and I did read the whole quote. I don’t think anyone is asking if Grace comes from Mary. ***The question is does it HAVE to come THROUGH Mary. *** I actually find the quote about no one being saved “except by thee” more disturbing than the grace question.
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It doesn’t HAVE to, God CHOOSES to have Grace enter the world through His Mother.

There are many quotes between the threads which show this.

Think mystically about it. Meditate on it. You will see that Grace Itself, Christ, The Source of all Grace, entered the world through Mary. This is why He Wills it to be thus.

The many quotes on these two threads show that Mary’s role in bringing Grace into the world did not cease when she was Assumed into Heaven. She continues to bring Christ, Grace Itself into the world.
.

Those outside of the Church receive Grace in the same manner. They are just unaware that this is how it came to them. They may contain some of the truth, but not fullness.

As a Catholic you have access to the Fullness of Truth. You know how Grace entered and continues to enter the world.

So it’s not a matter of what God must do, but rather what He chooses to do.
(And He honors His mother in doing so.)

Hope that made some sense.
 
TuAutem said:
😦 I’ve tried to come at this in multiple threads, with multiple different arguments, to show that this is not only true, but really not even controversial, but without apparent success.

The Church Fathers do say, and I can provide references/arguments if necessary, that Mary is co-redemptrix (‘Second Eve’), ever-Virgin, assumed into heaven, and queen of all saints and angels.

The question here is about Mediatrix of all graces, though: justtryin gives some good quotes. But the key thing, to free you from all doubt, or uncertainty, is to understand the WHAT and the WHY. So I will offer here a more philosophical approach, which I hope is at least faithful to the Fathers’ thinking, even if I do not quote them:

Are you familiar with the term theosis, or deification, and its importance in theology as the goal of Christian life? Of what heaven, truly, is? It is being with God, contemplating God, in the presence of God. If this is the Christian destination, then the saints are those that have arrived at it. And of all the saints, Mary is the most accomplished (as you will find abundant patristic witness).

Therefore, Mary beholds God in heaven more closely and more immediately than any creature, man or angel. What are the implications of this?

Well, I would argue, if we understand the concept of theosis, then, as theosis progresses, our wills become more perfectly attuned to the divine will. The ultimate goal of this, necessarily, is then that these wills become one. Disagreement with God’s will is sin, and there is no sin in heaven. If anyone has achieved this goal of sainthood, Mary has, since she is first among the saints. And if she has achieved it, then by definition, the consequence is that what God wills, Mary wills, and what God does not will, Mary does not will.

This means that anything God wishes to bestow a grace for, Mary wishes to pray for. That is what a perfect creature in heaven’s will should be, by definition. And that is all that we are saying when we say that all graces come through Mary. Because Mary wants what God wants, anything God wants, Mary wants.

Therefore, Mary’s intercession is present for all graces. All graces do not come from Mary–they come from God. But since her will is fully obedient to God’s, all graces coming from God are also graces that she desires–otherwise her adherence to God would be less than perfect, which neither the Church nor the Fathers would admit.

And, because she is in heaven, what she desires, is the same thing as what she intercedes for. Thus:
  • God dispenses graces as He wills
  • Whatever God does will, Mary wills, because she has achieved Theosis beyond any other creature
  • Therefore, Mary’s intercession to God (=her prayer, for those in heaven express desire through constant prayer), corresponds exactly to God’s chosen graces
  • Therefore, all graces come through Mary–not because she is in any way their originator, but because her will is perfectly conformed to God, therefore she by her very nature must intercede for all graces that God is disposed to grant, and must not intercede for any grace that God would not grant.
To get back to my initial frustration that this is not better understood, I am bothered by this because, given the logic above, saying that all graces do not come through Mary is like saying that, in heaven, it would be possible not to agree with everything God does. Which, for me, goes against the very definition of heaven.

To my thinking, saying that Mary is mediatrix of all graces does not place an intermediary between me and Christ–rather, saying that she is not places an insurmountable barrier between me and Christ: if Christ’s own mother cannot, in heavenly perfection, fully accord her will to God’s, what hope do I, a gentile 2000 years removed, possibly have to reconcile myself to the Father?
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What you posted is very interesting and something to think about.

But I have a few questions:

Are the wills of the Saints not perfectly in accord with Christ’s will?

Is “All graces come through Mary” really the equivalent of Mary’s will is in perfect accord with Christ’s will? I think those are two different statements.

Even though I am no Mary, I hope when I die, I too will be interceding for those who are alive with a will that is perfectly in accord with Christ’s will. If it is not, then why would I be in heaven?
 
jmj1984 said:
Actually theres a rather large body of evidence from the church fathers for Papal Infallibility as well as scriptural reference.
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In so many words? Certainly there was a case for papal SUPREMACY and for the church to be free of error, but Papal infallibility as expressed in the 19th century?

Of course, there is likewise plenty of support for Mary as the source of God’s graces. . .including Luke 2.
Dr. Mark Merrivale:

St. Ambrose (d.397) continues to develop the New Eve understanding, referring to Mary as
St. Ambrose (d.397) continues to develop the New Eve understanding, referring to Mary as the “Mother of Salvation”:
It was through a man and woman that flesh was cast from Paradise; it was through a virgin that flesh was linked to God…Eve is called mother of the human race, but Mary Mother of salvation. (5)
St. Jerome (d.420) neatly summarizes the entire patristic understanding of the New Eve in the pithy expression: “death through Eve, life through Mary.” (6)
The Second Vatican Council confirms this early understanding of Mary as the “New Eve” by the Church Fathers, as well as the Fathers’ certain testimony to her active and unique participation in man’s salvation:
Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience… Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him (Irenaeus) in their preaching: “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound by her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “Mother of the living” and frequently claim: “death through Eve, life through Mary” (Lumen Gentium,No. 56).
The Christian witness of the first centuries of the Church also provides us with examples of direct prayer to Mary as a means of intercession to the graces and the protection of her Son.
For St. Irenaeus, Mary is an “Advocate,” or interceding helper, for Eve and for her salvation. (7) St. Gregory Thaumaturgis (d.350) depicts Mary interceding for those on earth from her position in Heaven. (8)
St. Ephraem (d.373), the great Eastern doctor and deacon, directly addresses the Blessed Virgin in several Marian sermons. Direct prayer to Mary is also found in a sermon of the great Eastern Father, St. Gregory Nazianzen (330-389). (9) By the last part of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, we have numerous explicit examples of direct prayer to the Mother of God, for example in the writings of St. Ambrose, as well as by St. Epiphanius. (10)
As already referred to, the most complete ancient prayer to the Blessed Mother historically preserved is the *Sub Tuum Praesidium *(250 A.D.):
We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all dangers.
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.
Note that by the third century, our early Christian brothers and sisters already accepted Mary under the title of “Mother of God,” even though this title would not be solemnly defined for another two hundred years. Further, the early Church realized that direct prayer to Mary did not consist of forms of idolatry or adoration, as is sometimes mistakenly interpreted in our day, but rather as a spiritual communication of love and petition to the Mother of Jesus, who continues to care for the Mystical Body of her Son by her intercession.
Moreover, the Sub Tuum prayer tells us that the early Christian community went to their motherly Advocate especially in times of trial and danger. The acknowledgement of Our Lady’s special intercession, especially for the Church in times of danger, continues to our present day. (11)
By the time of the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., where Mary is formally declared the “Mother of God,” we have cathedrals dedicated to her in the central ecclesial locations of Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople. After the Council of Ephesus, the Church experiences an extraordinary flourishing of devotion to the Blessed Virgin both in the East and the West, the quantity and quality of which would exceed the most comprehensive study. Historians have compared the expansive spreading of Marian devotion in both Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church to the post Anno Domini development of Western civilization itself.Marian prayers, Marian liturgical feast days, Marian icons, Marian paintings and Marian artwork became ubiquitous throughout the Christian world after the Council of Ephesus.
The Second Vatican Council attests to this tremendous flourishing of Marian devotion from the early Church onward:
From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs. Accordingly, following the Council of Ephesus, there was a remarkable growth in the cult of the People of God towards Mary, in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: “all generations shall call me blessed, because he that is mighty hath done great things to me” (Lk 1:48) (Lumen Gentium, No. 66).
 
Tantum_ergo said:
In so many words? Certainly there was a case for papal SUPREMACY and for the church to be free of error, but Papal infallibility as expressed in the 19th century?

Of course, there is likewise plenty of support for Mary as the source of God’s graces. . .including Luke 2.
Dr. Mark Merrivale:

St. Ambrose (d.397) continues to develop the New Eve understanding, referring to Mary as
St. Ambrose (d.397) continues to develop the New Eve understanding, referring to Mary as the “Mother of Salvation”:
It was through a man and woman that flesh was cast from Paradise; it was through a virgin that flesh was linked to God…Eve is called mother of the human race, but Mary Mother of salvation. (5)
St. Jerome (d.420) neatly summarizes the entire patristic understanding of the New Eve in the pithy expression: “death through Eve, life through Mary.” (6)
The Second Vatican Council confirms this early understanding of Mary as the “New Eve” by the Church Fathers, as well as the Fathers’ certain testimony to her active and unique participation in man’s salvation:
Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience… Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him (Irenaeus) in their preaching: “the knot of Eve’s disobedience was untied by Mary’s obedience: what the virgin Eve bound by her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith.” Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her “Mother of the living” and frequently claim: “death through Eve, life through Mary” (Lumen Gentium,No. 56).
The Christian witness of the first centuries of the Church also provides us with examples of direct prayer to Mary as a means of intercession to the graces and the protection of her Son.
For St. Irenaeus, Mary is an “Advocate,” or interceding helper, for Eve and for her salvation. (7) St. Gregory Thaumaturgis (d.350) depicts Mary interceding for those on earth from her position in Heaven. (8)
St. Ephraem (d.373), the great Eastern doctor and deacon, directly addresses the Blessed Virgin in several Marian sermons. Direct prayer to Mary is also found in a sermon of the great Eastern Father, St. Gregory Nazianzen (330-389). (9) By the last part of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, we have numerous explicit examples of direct prayer to the Mother of God, for example in the writings of St. Ambrose, as well as by St. Epiphanius. (10)
As already referred to, the most complete ancient prayer to the Blessed Mother historically preserved is the *Sub Tuum Praesidium *(250 A.D.):
We fly to your patronage,
O holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us from all dangers.
O ever glorious and blessed Virgin.
Note that by the third century, our early Christian brothers and sisters already accepted Mary under the title of “Mother of God,” even though this title would not be solemnly defined for another two hundred years. Further, the early Church realized that direct prayer to Mary did not consist of forms of idolatry or adoration, as is sometimes mistakenly interpreted in our day, but rather as a spiritual communication of love and petition to the Mother of Jesus, who continues to care for the Mystical Body of her Son by her intercession.
Moreover, the Sub Tuum prayer tells us that the early Christian community went to their motherly Advocate especially in times of trial and danger. The acknowledgement of Our Lady’s special intercession, especially for the Church in times of danger, continues to our present day. (11)
By the time of the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., where Mary is formally declared the “Mother of God,” we have cathedrals dedicated to her in the central ecclesial locations of Rome, Jerusalem and Constantinople. After the Council of Ephesus, the Church experiences an extraordinary flourishing of devotion to the Blessed Virgin both in the East and the West, the quantity and quality of which would exceed the most comprehensive study. Historians have compared the expansive spreading of Marian devotion in both Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church to the post Anno Domini development of Western civilization itself.Marian prayers, Marian liturgical feast days, Marian icons, Marian paintings and Marian artwork became ubiquitous throughout the Christian world after the Council of Ephesus.
The Second Vatican Council attests to this tremendous flourishing of Marian devotion from the early Church onward:
From the earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, whose protection the faithful take refuge together in prayer in all their perils and needs. Accordingly, following the Council of Ephesus, there was a remarkable growth in the cult of the People of God towards Mary, in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: “all generations shall call me blessed, because he that is mighty hath done great things to me” (Lk 1:48) (Lumen Gentium, No. 66).
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I’m sorry, but none of those support that all graces come through Mary.

They show that veneration of Mary is just and right and that Mary continues to intercede for us. Mary is the mother of salvation, of course because Jesus is our salvation.
 
jmj1984 said:
You’re dealing with a strawman, the issue is not whether or not the graces are Gods (we all know Graces come from God) but whether there is a barrier between us and Christ, namely Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces.
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YOURS is the strawman.

If Mary is a barrier between us and Christ as mediatrix of all graces, then she was a barrier between us and Christ when she conceived and gave birth to Him as well.

If she wasn’t then, she isn’t now.
 
justtryin said:
Think mystically about it. Meditate on it. You will see that Grace Itself, Christ, The Source of all Grace, entered the world through Mary. This is why He Wills it to be thus.
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I guess that is what I will have to do because I don’t see it now. It might take years. 😃
 
TrueLight said:
I know your frustrated, but you really should refrain from calling people stupid.
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You’re wrong in calling me frustrated, and I call no one stupid.

“IF” means I am making a hypothetical. . .IF this is the case, THEN something else --not making a ‘judgment’ on a given person.
 
TuAutem said:
😦 I’ve tried to come at this in multiple threads, with multiple different arguments, to show that this is not only true, but really not even controversial, but without apparent success.

The Church Fathers do say, and I can provide references/arguments if necessary, that Mary is co-redemptrix (‘Second Eve’), ever-Virgin, assumed into heaven, and queen of all saints and angels.

The question here is about Mediatrix of all graces, though: justtryin gives some good quotes. But the key thing, to free you from all doubt, or uncertainty, is to understand the WHAT and the WHY. So I will offer here a more philosophical approach, which I hope is at least faithful to the Fathers’ thinking, even if I do not quote them:

Are you familiar with the term theosis, or deification, and its importance in theology as the goal of Christian life? Of what heaven, truly, is? It is being with God, contemplating God, in the presence of God. If this is the Christian destination, then the saints are those that have arrived at it. And of all the saints, Mary is the most accomplished (as you will find abundant patristic witness).

Therefore, Mary beholds God in heaven more closely and more immediately than any creature, man or angel. What are the implications of this?

Well, I would argue, if we understand the concept of theosis, then, as theosis progresses, our wills become more perfectly attuned to the divine will. The ultimate goal of this, necessarily, is then that these wills become one. Disagreement with God’s will is sin, and there is no sin in heaven. If anyone has achieved this goal of sainthood, Mary has, since she is first among the saints. And if she has achieved it, then by definition, the consequence is that what God wills, Mary wills, and what God does not will, Mary does not will.

This means that anything God wishes to bestow a grace for, Mary wishes to pray for. That is what a perfect creature in heaven’s will should be, by definition. And that is all that we are saying when we say that all graces come through Mary. Because Mary wants what God wants, anything God wants, Mary wants.

Therefore, Mary’s intercession is present for all graces. All graces do not come from Mary–they come from God. But since her will is fully obedient to God’s, all graces coming from God are also graces that she desires–otherwise her adherence to God would be less than perfect, which neither the Church nor the Fathers would admit.

And, because she is in heaven, what she desires, is the same thing as what she intercedes for. Thus:
  • God dispenses graces as He wills
  • Whatever God does will, Mary wills, because she has achieved Theosis beyond any other creature
  • Therefore, Mary’s intercession to God (=her prayer, for those in heaven express desire through constant prayer), corresponds exactly to God’s chosen graces
  • Therefore, all graces come through Mary–not because she is in any way their originator, but because her will is perfectly conformed to God, therefore she by her very nature must intercede for all graces that God is disposed to grant, and must not intercede for any grace that God would not grant.
To get back to my initial frustration that this is not better understood, I am bothered by this because, given the logic above, saying that all graces do not come through Mary is like saying that, in heaven, it would be possible not to agree with everything God does. Which, for me, goes against the very definition of heaven.

To my thinking, saying that Mary is mediatrix of all graces does not place an intermediary between me and Christ–rather, saying that she is not places an insurmountable barrier between me and Christ: if Christ’s own mother cannot, in heavenly perfection, fully accord her will to God’s, what hope do I, a gentile 2000 years removed, possibly have to reconcile myself to the Father?
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Thats given me a lot to think about but I don’t see how any of that leads us to conclude that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces, that all graces come through her. You could say that she always wishes for the same graces God provides, but in no way does that mean the graces come through her.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
You’re wrong in calling me frustrated, and I call no one stupid.

“IF” means I am making a hypothetical. . .IF this is the case, THEN something else --not making a ‘judgment’ on a given person.
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Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can’t imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don’t think there is room for such language in this thread.
 
TrueLight said:
Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can’t imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don’t think there is room for such language in this thread.
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yea, the only two on the planet 🙂
 
TrueLight said:
Mary is the mother of salvation, of course because Jesus is our salvation.
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The above quote from you is the EXACT SPOT where you need to start. Empty everything you have been reading about this from the front of your mind. None of that matters.

Start at your quote MARY IS THE MOTHER OF SALVATION.

What is the wealth of knowledge hidden in those six words?

Think outside of time and space for they cannot hold the wealth of knowledge contained in those six simple words.

Contemplate, ponder, and meditate on those six words. You will see all the truth in those words.
 
jmj1984 said:
Thats given me a lot to think about but I don’t see how any of that leads us to conclude that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces, that all graces come through her. You could say that she always wishes for the same graces God provides, but in no way does that mean the graces come through her.
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Why not?

Graces come from God, and they come to us. . .and we can take those graces through ourselves and then they come to others through us. . .

How is Mary a barrier? If she is, then aren’t WE barriers to others who receive God’s graces through us instead of 'directly?"
 
I’m going to be honest the amount of sins against charity and humulity that are being commited who strive so hard to venerate and imitate Mary is staggering, do you honestly think you’re going to persuade or help anyone with that attitude?
 
TrueLight said:
Considering that two of us are questioning the non De Fide teaching of all graces come through Mary, I can’t imagine who else that hypothetical refers to.

I don’t think there is room for such language in this thread.
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I was not addressing you personally but making a conditional IF. . .then statement.
 
jmj1984 said:
I’m going to be honest the amount of sins against charity and humulity that are being commited who strive so hard to venerate and imitate Mary is staggering, do you honestly think you’re going to persuade or help anyone with that attitude?
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We certainly all fall short of perfection but is it any more charitable or humble to accuse people of sin when you cannot know their hearts?
 
Assuredly the doctrine is not de fide. Holy Mother Church does not yet insist that all of the faithful hold to this doctrine so how can I at this time?

To jmj and true light:

All blessings be yours. Our Lady knows your concerns and misgivings.

If you could accept the doctrine if it were definitively proclaimed by the Church, that seems adequate to me.

But it wouldn’t seem right if you would take active opposition to it. (I do not say you have. You seem to be merely questioning. I am glad jmj, to see you accept the “acorn principle”. That’s good. We will have to differ for now on whether this doctrine qualifies.)

If at this time you continue to deny the doctrine while having proper respect for all the popes, saints, and doctors of the Church who have taught it, that seems adequate to me. Nobody changes their mind in a moment. If you would prayerfully ponder what has been presented, I could not expect much better result from an internet discussion.

PP
 
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