Do the Church Father's say All graces comes through Mary?

[justtryin]

I found this quite shocking until I read further and thought about it, and then found it quite logical and really not such a big deal.

That sums up what bothers me the most. We cannot possibly comprehend everything in our frail and sinful human minds. Christ established a Church. That Church has proclaimed certain people to be of a saintly nature. “Listen to them, they can help you understand,” She says to us. But what do we do instead? We bite that apple and say “I have the knowledge, what they say doesn’t fit with what I understand. Good thing they are not always infallible. They must be over zealous.”

I understand non-Catholics dismissing the words of those appointed by the Church to be worthy of teaching and guiding. It’s when those who accept the Church’s role dismiss things rather than attempt to understand, that’s what I don’t get.

But here is where the OP deserves credit. They thought, “No it cannot be so!”
I give the benefit of doubt and say good for you if you’re trying to understand what our limited comprehension can absorb.

But if the motive is to disprove the teaching authority appointed by Christ, that I don’t understand. How can we claim to know better than the Church and Her saints with the bitter taste of that fruit still in our mouths?

Hopefully these questions are for the purpose of understanding. If so, THANK YOU because they cause people to look and pray further.

On a personal note, I think we can do without polls when it comes to Church teaching.

Anyway I think TIMOTHYH has the best advice:

“I found this quite shocking until I read further and thought about it, and then found it quite logical and really not such a big deal.”

 

[simple_soul]

I just read True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin by St. Louis de Montfort. He goes as far as to argue that the Holy Spirit obeys Mary.

The saint argues that since Mary is Mediatrix of Grace through whom all grace flows, and since all grace comes to us by the working of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit must be docile and obedient to Mary.

I found this quite shocking until I read further and thought about it, and then found it quite logical and really not such a big deal. If one believes that Mary’s will to be perfectly conformed to God’s will, then Mary’s will = God’s will. Whether the Holy Spriit obeys God the Father or God the Father working through Mary, it is still God’s will. I thought to myself how much Mary must have been emptied to allow God’s will to work through her, then I read Galatians 2.

***I have been crucified with Christ; yet I live, no longer I, but Christ lives in me ***(Galatians 2:19-20)

Isn’t this the very heart of the story of Mary? Crucified with Christ? And I do see Mary, created by God at the beginning of time, protected by God - consecrated for God’s special purpose - from the moment he discovered that Adam and Eve had sinned,

He expelled the man, stationing the cherubim and the fiery revolving sword east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life. (Genesis 3:24)

Is Mary not the Tree of Life, the fruit of which is Jesus - life himself? And is the firery revolving sword not the same two-edged sword which comes from the mouth of Jesus and strikes the nations in Revelation 19?

If I’m wrong about the tree of life then so be it. I’ve been wrong enough times before that it doesn’t really bother me.

-Tim-

You know, I have been thinking about this, I do not recall ever hearing our Blessed Mother Mary referred to as the Tree of Life. I always thought when we referred to the Tree of Life one was speaking about Jesus Christ not His Mother Mary…will have to do some pondering on this one but I do believe I hear what you are saying…I am just going to have to brush up on what the Church teaches regarding the Tree of Life.

 

[TimothyH]

But here is where the OP deserves credit. They thought, “No it cannot be so!” I give the benefit of doubt and say good for you if you’re trying to understand what our limited comprehension can absorb.

But if the motive is to disprove the teaching authority appointed by Christ, that I don’t understand. How can we claim to know better than the Church and Her saints with the bitter taste of that fruit still in our mouths?

Even so, I’m reminded of St. Thomas who said, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)

Thomas said, “I refuse to believe!” and Jesus said, “All right Thomas, if that is the way you want it… Come to me and look right here. Dude, gimme your hand cause I’m gonna stick it into my side where the spear went into my heart and my blood poured out for you!”

I think Thomas was afraid that he was going to die. I think he realized that God himself was standing in front of him and that if he reached into Jesus’ side and touched the Heart of God, he would have died. I think in falling on his knees and crying out “My Lord and my God!”, Thomas was effectively begging for mercy. My guess is that Thomas was probably the disciple who at the end of the day had the most faith. My guess is also that he paid dearly for his doubt, for his obstinance. Jesus told the disciples that those who believe in spite of the fact that they don’t have explicit proof are blessed. Thomas was sent to the ends of the earth and martyred.

God can work even in the face of obstinant refusal to believe. But it isn’t the easy way, nor is it always pleasant.

-Tim-

 

[justtryin]

Even so, I’m reminded of St. Thomas who said, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” (John 20:25)

Thomas said, “I refuse to believe!” and Jesus said, “All right Thomas, if that is the way you want it… Come to me and look right here. Dude, gimme your hand cause I’m gonna stick it into my side where the spear went into my heart and my blood poured out for you!”

I think Thomas was afraid that he was going to die. I think he realized that God himself was standing in front of him and that if he reached into Jesus’ side and touched the Heart of God, he would have died. I think in falling on his knees and crying out “My Lord and my God!”, Thomas was effectively begging for mercy. My guess is that Thomas was probably the disciple who at the end of the day had the most faith. My guess is also that he paid dearly for his doubt, for his obstinance. Jesus told the disciples that those who believe in spite of the fact that they don’t have explicit proof are blessed. Thomas was sent to the ends of the earth and martyred.

God can work even in the face of obstinant refusal to believe. But it isn’t the easy way, nor is it always pleasant.

-Tim-

That is probably why we describe people with the term “doubting thomas” rather than “abandoning thomas.”

You are wiser than you give yourself credit for being.

 

[TrueLight]

I do apologize for just rambling on, this has turned into a way longer post than I had intended, but I believe this is how I see she has helped me and I do hope and pray it makes some sense or helps you in some way or another…

Rambling?

Your post gave me the chills and brought tears to my eyes.

Thank you for sharing this and it has made things a lot clearer.

 

[jmj1984]

It looks to me like the problem you are having is not really with Marian teachings, it is with Development of Doctrine.

I understand that idea perfectly well, I also understand that things must have a seed or acorn in the faith of the fathers, and that at least some peoples interpretation of mary as mediatrix doesn’t possess this.

 

[At_Trent]

Just got the current issue of Catholic ( from the good monks on Papa Stronsay) yesterday.

Here and there, they place brief quotes.

"Catholicism cannot exist without a Marian Character… Being Catholic means belonging to Mary " - H.H. Pope BXVI

 

[justtryin]

%between%

I understand that idea perfectly well, I also understand that things must have a seed or acorn in the faith of the fathers, and that at least some peoples ***interpretation of mary as mediatrix ***doesn’t possess this.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

969 “This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/969.htm

So where is the misunderstanding? Fathers, Doctors, Saints, Councils, Catechism, Popes, all have been referenced. Mary is invoked under the title Mediatrix. Is the confusion about the meaning and role of Mediatrix?

We cannot conclude without addressing the Blessed Virgin, so loved and venerated by Murialdo, who had recourse to her as the Universal Mediatrix of all grace. The thought of Mary returned continually in his letters. In them he inculcated the recitation of the Rosary, entrusted his Sons with spreading devotion to the Holy Virgin, and stated: “If one wishes to do a little good among the young, one must instil love for Mary in them”. The beneficial work carried out by your Founder, is the best confirmation of this. So follow his example in this matter too. ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS JOHN PAUL II
TO THE CONGREGATION OF ST JOSEPH Friday, 1 December 1978

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1978/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19781201_giuseppini-murialdo_en.html

In penetrating that mystery, ***the Blessed Virgin Mary, united with the Redeemer, comes to our assistance because “when we celebrate the Holy Mass, the Mother of the Son of God is in our midst and introduces us to the mystery of His redemptive sacrifice. Thus, she is the mediatrix of all the grace flowing from this sacrifice ***to the Church and to all the faithful”[45]. Indeed, “Mary was associated with the priestly sacrifice of Christ in a singular way by sharing His will to save the world through the Cross. She was the first and perfect spiritual participant in His oblation as Sacerdos et Hostia. As such, she can obtain and give to those who share ministerially in the priesthood of her Son, the grace to respond all the more to the demands of the spiritual sacrifice which the priesthood demands: in particular she can obtain and give the grace of faith, hope and perseverance in the face of trials which stimulate a more generous participation in the redemptive sacrifice”[46].
CONGREGATION FOR THE CLERGY

THE PRIEST,
PASTOR AND LEADER
OF THE PARISH COMMUNITY

citations in link here…vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_20020804_istruzione-presbitero_en.html#_ftnref45

The Church clearly teaches Mediatrix of all Grace. Where lies the controversy?

 

[Biedrik]

What do you believe ?

The teachings of the Catholic Church. Why do you ask?

 

[TrueLight]

Just got the current issue of Catholic ( from the good monks on Papa Stronsay) yesterday.

Here and there, they place brief quotes.

"Catholicism cannot exist without a Marian Character… Being Catholic means belonging to Mary " - H.H. Pope BXVI

Oh. No wonder some Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic instead of Christian.

I would think being Catholic means belonging to Christ.

One can belong to both Mary and Christ but if someone says what does it mean to be Catholic, I would speak of the Church that Christ founded.

Sigh.

 

[Ignatius]

thanks, but you’ll notice I asked for Church fathers not popes or scriptural interpretation or interpretation of Vatican II.

No, the Patristic writers never said all graces come through Mary. That is of very recent (Th century) origin. Patristics does acknowledge Mary’s special role in Salvation History and the very special circumstances surrounding her Dormition exceptionally elevated station as Queen Mother to Christ the King.

 

[At_Trent]

Oh. No wonder some Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic instead of Christian.

I would think being Catholic means belonging to Christ.

One can belong to both Mary and Christ but if someone says what does it mean to be Catholic, I would speak of the Church that Christ founded.

Sigh.

Well, that quote is from our Papa

 

[oneseeker2]

I’ve tried to come at this in multiple threads, with multiple different arguments, to show that this is not only true, but really not even controversial, but without apparent success.

The Church Fathers do say, and I can provide references/arguments if necessary, that Mary is co-redemptrix (‘Second Eve’), ever-Virgin, assumed into heaven, and queen of all saints and angels.

The question here is about Mediatrix of all graces, though: justtryin gives some good quotes. But the key thing, to free you from all doubt, or uncertainty, is to understand the WHAT and the WHY. So I will offer here a more philosophical approach, which I hope is at least faithful to the Fathers’ thinking, even if I do not quote them:

Are you familiar with the term theosis, or deification, and its importance in theology as the goal of Christian life? Of what heaven, truly, is? It is being with God, contemplating God, in the presence of God. If this is the Christian destination, then the saints are those that have arrived at it. And of all the saints, Mary is the most accomplished (as you will find abundant patristic witness).

Therefore, Mary beholds God in heaven more closely and more immediately than any creature, man or angel. What are the implications of this?

Well, I would argue, if we understand the concept of theosis, then, as theosis progresses, our wills become more perfectly attuned to the divine will. The ultimate goal of this, necessarily, is then that these wills become one. Disagreement with God’s will is sin, and there is no sin in heaven. If anyone has achieved this goal of sainthood, Mary has, since she is first among the saints. And if she has achieved it, then by definition, the consequence is that what God wills, Mary wills, and what God does not will, Mary does not will.

This means that anything God wishes to bestow a grace for, Mary wishes to pray for. That is what a perfect creature in heaven’s will should be, by definition. And that is all that we are saying when we say that all graces come through Mary. Because Mary wants what God wants, anything God wants, Mary wants.

Therefore, Mary’s intercession is present for all graces. All graces do not come from Mary–they come from God. But since her will is fully obedient to God’s, all graces coming from God are also graces that she desires–otherwise her adherence to God would be less than perfect, which neither the Church nor the Fathers would admit.

And, because she is in heaven, what she desires, is the same thing as what she intercedes for. Thus:

• God dispenses graces as He wills
• Whatever God does will, Mary wills, because she has achieved Theosis beyond any other creature
• Therefore, Mary’s intercession to God (=her prayer, for those in heaven express desire through constant prayer), corresponds exactly to God’s chosen graces
• Therefore, all graces come through Mary–not because she is in any way their originator, but because her will is perfectly conformed to God, therefore she by her very nature must intercede for all graces that God is disposed to grant, and must not intercede for any grace that God would not grant.

To get back to my initial frustration that this is not better understood, I am bothered by this because, given the logic above, saying that all graces do not come through Mary is like saying that, in heaven, it would be possible not to agree with everything God does. Which, for me, goes against the very definition of heaven.

To my thinking, saying that Mary is mediatrix of all graces does not place an intermediary between me and Christ–rather, saying that she is not places an insurmountable barrier between me and Christ: if Christ’s own mother cannot, in heavenly perfection, fully accord her will to God’s, what hope do I, a gentile 2000 years removed, possibly have to reconcile myself to the Father?

This is by the far the BEST and easiest to understand explanation I have ever received, and I wasn’t even the original questioner!!! I’m so thankful I happened upon this today.
oneseeker2

 

[TimothyH]

This is by the far the BEST and easiest to understand explanation I have ever received, and I wasn’t even the original questioner!!! I’m so thankful I happened upon this today.
oneseeker2

That’s a great explanation but it doesn’t go far enough.

It’s not just a uniting of Mary’s will go God’s will. All grace actually flows through Mary.

I will that someone give you ten bucks and he gives it to you. That is not the same as saying that I will that somone give you ten bucks and he gives me the ten bucks so that I can give it to you. The former is continuity of will. In the latter, I actually hold and touch the ten bucks for you, and then present it to you personally.

All grace comes through Mary. Mary touches it on the way to us. She holds it, readies it for us and personally hands it to us. Every grace that touches your life, comes from Jesus to the hands of Mary and from the hands of Mary directly to you.

Jesus is the source. Mary is the path. The Holy Spirit is the mechanism.

-Tim-

 

[twf]

That’s a great explanation but it doesn’t go far enough.

It’s not just a uniting of Mary’s will go God’s will. All grace actually flows through Mary.

I will that someone give you ten bucks and he gives it to you. That is not the same as saying that I will that somone give you ten bucks and he gives me the ten bucks so that I can give it to you. The former is continuity of will. In the latter, I actually hold and touch the ten bucks for you, and then present it to you personally.

All grace comes through Mary. Mary touches it on the way to us. She holds it, readies it for us and personally hands it to us. Every grace that touches your life, comes from Jesus to the hands of Mary and from the hands of Mary directly to you.

Jesus is the source. Mary is the path. The Holy Spirit is the mechanism.

-Tim-

Though of course when discussing matters of grace and spirituality, which are infinite and beyond our limited finite understanding, no human analogy will ever fully “fit the bill” (no pun intended ). It should not be suggested that the concept of all graces flowing through Our Lady diminishes in any way the very real and very direct encounter each of us experiences with the person of Jesus Christ. All graces entered into the world in the literal sense when Our Lord came into the world through His Mother. If the Mother of God handed you the Christ-child to hold, you would still experience a direct and immediate connection with Christ, even though the grace of that experience came through Mary. Matters of spirit are rarely either/or. Take for example the Blessed Sacrament. All graces of the Blessed Sacrament come to us through the ministry of the priest…that we receive Holy Communion is only made possibly by the consecration of the priest over the bread and wine, and we literally receive the holy gifts through the hands of the priest…but the fact that “all graces of the Blessed Sacrament” come to us through the priest does not in any way diminish the fact that when receiving Holy Communion we receive the fullness of the Lord Himself. Likewise, even if Jesus comes to us through Our Lady, we’re not simply receiving something from Jesus, given to Mary, and then given to us…we’re receiving the life of Christ! I think too many people in this thread and the recent similar thread are getting too hung up with the idea that Mary’s intermediate role in someway places a barrier between us and the Lord. I elaborated upon this point in an earlier thread… forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8293150#post8293150

 

[CopticChristian]

I was discussing this on another thread started by TrueLight, many seem to subscribe to the idea that ALL graces come through Mary, and I was wondering if someone could show where the church fathers say this?

The church cannot develop new doctrines but merely more faithfully expound those found in the deposit of the faith, now as the faith of the fathers is the faith of the church if all Graces do in fact come through Mary then the consensus of the Church Fathers should support this.

I think the problem both I and TrueLight have (though I can only claim to speak for myself) is that the idea of Mary as Mediatrix of ALL graces puts a barrier between us and christ, however you want to spin it or whatever you want to call it.

And yes I have seen many quotes but few Fathers that say Mary was the Mediatrix of all graces, therefore I cannot see any consensus on the matter. As for Blessed Cardinal Newman’s view, he is of course correct, Dogma can develop but it is always based on a seed or acorn as he called it. The idea of Mary being Mediatrix of All graces is not one that has an acorn in the consensus of the fathers, frankly it seems symptomatic of an unbalanced mariology that emphasises Mary not only at the expense of her son but also at the expense of the entire communion of saints.

With the exception of what TrueLight has to offer you should have included this in the original posting. There is an agenda here. The original posting was not necessarily a question without some presupposed answer. It would be good for you to direct this question to an Apologist as I would assume you are sincerely looking for an answer. I don’t know how to do this, I believe that if you asked in sincerity, that you would want a sincere answer that satisfies all.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.

Sometimes Mystery sounds pretty good. You sound like a Protestant trying to make everything meet your reason.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you can’t answer the question of the thread then why post in it?

It would appear that you do not want discussion. You are not interested in learning. You are impudent.

Here is information from Catholic Answers concerning your question. If you have a problem with Catholic Answers please say so.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609fea1.asp

Church documents and papal writings speak clearly. The Second Vatican Council states that “the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix” (Lumen Gentium 62). The Council refers to Pope St. Pius X, who said that Mary is the “dispensatrix of all the gifts and is the ‘neck’ connecting the head of the mystical body to the members. But all power flows through the neck” (Ad Diem Illum 13).

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0712_final.pdf

Ephrem the Syrian says,“With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world”; and
Antipater of Bostra, a father of the Council of Ephesus, wrote about the Blessed Virgin in the fifth century, “Hail, you who acceptably intercede as Mediatrix for mankind” (qtd. in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers).

If you truly had an interest you would not have insulted people in the posting as you do and you would have revealed all that you know and then ask the question.

 

[CopticChristian]

Oh. No wonder some Catholics refer to themselves as Catholic instead of Christian.

I would think being Catholic means belonging to Christ.

One can belong to both Mary and Christ but if someone says what does it mean to be Catholic, I would speak of the Church that Christ founded.

Sigh.

Here is good prelude from another thread that is fulfilling and relevant.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve been thinking about this and I came to an analogy that I might just be able to accept and might well work with the Church Fathers. Remembering that the church is the body of christ and that God works within his church, one could posit that graces pass from Christ, the head of the church, through the body of Christ to all its members. In this way we could say that Mary is the neck of the church par excellence, though I’m not sure that she could be called the sole neck of the church. This method of understanding it doesn’t require one to have a barrier between us and Mary but simply follows from the logical understandng of the mystical body of christ.

That said I still don’t accept that all graces from the beginning of time were communicated via Mary or that the world was saved out of God’s love of Mary or that Christ was born only or principally as a result of Marys prayer because I believe such things to be gross exagerrations.

Church documents and papal writings speak clearly. The Second Vatican Council states that “the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix” (Lumen Gentium 62). The Council refers to Pope St. Pius X, who said that Mary is the “dispensatrix of all the gifts and is the ‘neck’ connecting the head of the mystical body to the members. But all power flows through the neck” (Ad Diem Illum 13).

Wow that is phenomenal. You came up with an analogy all on your own and it happens to coincide with Pius X. Don’t they have a society for Pius X. Great minds think alike.

St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, AAS 36, 1904. 453-54.

Piux X 1904 said this very thing and you are coming up with all on your own. Wow.

And to think you started this thread.