Do those who leave the Church go to Hell?

[PRmerger]

You assume God made the Catholic Church The Truth to mankind in an obvious way. He clearly didn’t.

What evidence do you have that the CC is “clearly” not the Church founded by Christ?

 

[Bezant]

You assume God made the Catholic Church The Truth to mankind in an obvious way. He clearly didn’t.

What evidence do you have that the CC is “clearly” not the Church founded by Christ?

I will not provide evidence for a (relative) claim I did not make or accept.

I said, it was not obviously clear, FROM MANKIND’S POINT OF VIEW, that the Catholic Church was The Truth.

Is this hard for you to believe? Would most of the world be non-believers, if the Catholic Church was obviously The Way?

 

[Bezant]

The true church is the one founded by Christ, that can trace its origins from Jesus to the current leader.

I don’t think many outsiders (inc. everyone from sceptics to Jehovah’s Witnesses) question that the Church of Rome has origins to the very beginning. Apparently there isn’t much, if any, evidence that Peter was there (so I was told) but at the very least there’s a very long tradition Christians support.

What is debatable for Jericho is whether or not the apostolic authority passed from Peter down is the exclusive authority of ‘The One True Church.’

 

[jericho777]

The true church is the one founded by Christ, that can trace its origins from Jesus to the current leader.

Hi PR, So can’t the EO and you all excommunicated each other.

The Jewish priesthood had it’s lineage directly from Aaron but but Jesus calls them false shepeards. And they were in great error.

As God demonstrates in the bible just because something or someone claims to be because of lineage that is nothing to God. IE Jews claiming to be in fellowship with God because they were children of Abraham but were not.

 

[GaryTaylor]

IApparently there isn’t much, if any, evidence that Peter was there (so I was told) but at the very least there’s a very long tradition Christians support.

Apparently, an So You were told??? So what conclusion did YOU reach all with own brain??

What is debatable for Jericho is whether or not the apostolic authority passed from Peter down is the exclusive authority of ‘The One True Church.’

Right, thats “his” problem, your not his spokeman or attorney. He can speak. Again what conclusion did “YOU” reach?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Bring the specific Biblical quotes in context.

 

[jericho777]

Good morning Gary, Please don’t be condescending to Bezant he is responding as many Catholics do here but his only offense is not siding with your position. He is asking in honesty and is not being disrespectful.

Biblical evidence does not matter because it is not the final authority for you or the CC. Just remember if God rejected Israel and her priesthood He can reject any other.

 

[PRmerger]

I said, it was not obviously clear, FROM MANKIND’S POINT OF VIEW, that the Catholic Church was The Truth.

Fair enough.

Well, actually, the above is a peculiar comment. You now are claiming to speak for MANKIND in its entirety? That’s simply :whacky:

Don’t you mean from your own POV that it’s not “obviously clear” that the CC teaches the truth?

From my POV it’s quite clear that the CC is the Church founded by Christ which cannot err in her teachings on faith and morals.

 

[PRmerger]

Is this hard for you to believe? Would most of the world be non-believers, if the Catholic Church was obviously The Way?

Heh.

This comments puts you in quite a pickle, Bezant.

Now you have to respond to atheists who will ask you: would most of ancient Israel have been non-believers if Christ was obvious The Way? Clearly he converted only a minority of people he encountered in his 33 years walking this earth.

By your reasoning in the above post you must conclude that Jesus was not The Way.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR, So can’t the EO and you all excommunicated each other.

Not sure what you mean. Can you provide a source for this please? (One from, of course, the Magisterium which declares that the EO are excommunicated.)

 

[PRmerger]

As God demonstrates in the bible just because something or someone claims to be because of lineage that is nothing to God. IE Jews claiming to be in fellowship with God because they were children of Abraham but were not.

Perhaps you are under the misapprehension that Catholics claim lineage to the apostles?

Bloodlines have nothing to do with Apostolic succession, jericho.

Rather, what has been passed down is* authority. *

Not lineage.

 

[divinefaith]

It depends. if they really believe they are right to convert e.g. a Catholic who actually believed sola sriptura made more sense, and therefore became protestant, then I’d say they are not in sin because they dont have the full knowledge.

I am unsure if my belief is compatible with CCC, but thats what I assume at the moment.

 

[Bezant]

Fair enough.

Well, actually, the above is a peculiar comment. You now are claiming to speak for MANKIND in its entirety?

Yes.

That’s simply :whacky:

Well is it, or isn’t it? Do you agree, or disagree? Am I correct, or not?

Don’t you mean from your own POV that it’s not “obviously clear” that the CC teaches the truth?

That’s a jab at my religion. If you respond rudely again, I will not continue to discuss with you.

So if you believe otherwise – that the Catholic Church is obviously The Truth to mankind – why hasn’t humanity realised that God is the Truth, and the best way to serve God and attain salvation is through faith in and obedience to His Church? Why would they miss something so crucial to their lives and their souls?

By the way, this didn’t seem IMO consistent with catechism:

"843** The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images,** for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.“332”

Why would nonbelievers have to search for God through other faiths, if the Catholic Church was obviously the way?

And then, I don’t need even the catechism to make my point. One day I’ll have kids, the responsibility to baptise them in the Catholic Church, assign them Catholic godparents, and provide solid Christian values and education in my home, strengthen them every Sunday at Mass, so they can take those values into the world and be good Christians.

Why would I need to care about any of that, if the Catholic Church was The Obvious Truth? They’d see it on their own!

From my POV it’s quite clear that the CC is the Church founded by Christ which cannot err in her teachings on faith and morals.

The point is, what has become clear to you, has not come clear to everyone.

 

[Bezant]

Heh.

This comments puts you in quite a pickle, Bezant:

Bezant: **
Is this hard for you to believe? Would most of the world be non-believers, if the Catholic Church was obviously The Way?**

Now you have to respond to atheists who will ask you: would most of ancient Israel have been non-believers if Christ was obvious The Way? Clearly he converted only a minority of people he encountered in his 33 years walking this earth.

By your reasoning in the above post you must conclude that Jesus was not The Way.

No. You’re mixing my statement,

IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO MANKIND THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THEREFORE MANY MEN DON’T BELIEVE IN THE CHURCH,

With your reasoning,

IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO SOME PEOPLE IN MANKIND THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THEREFORE, BECAUSE THEY DON’T THINK THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THE CHURCH IS NOT THE TRUTH.

It’s like saying, it’s not obvious to me that President Obama is President of the United States. It doesn’t mean, because I don’t perceive him as President, that he’s not.

 

[Bezant]

Apparently, an So You were told??? So what conclusion did YOU reach all with own brain??

None of your business.

Right, thats “his” problem, your not his spokeman or attorney. He can speak. Again what conclusion did “YOU” reach?

Whatever. You have no problem speaking for him in telling me not to speak for him.

 

[Bezant]

Good morning Gary, Please don’t be condescending to Bezant he is responding as many Catholics do here but his only offense is not siding with your position.
He is asking in honesty and is not being disrespectful.

Thank-you for your support

 

[PRmerger]

Well, actually, the above is a peculiar comment. You now are claiming to speak for MANKIND in its entirety? That’s simply :whacky:

Yes.

This is a form of maniacal egocentrism, Bezant.

But as I’m enjoying this discussion I will continue, knowing that I am speaking with someone who has the thought in his head that he speaks for mankind.

Well is it, or isn’t it? Do you agree, or disagree? Am I correct, or not?

[SIGN1]You are absolutely INCORRECT. :sad_yes: [/SIGN1]

That’s a jab at my religion. If you respond rudely again, I will not continue to discuss with you.

As you wish.

Paranoia too then seems to be part of this picture.

So if you believe otherwise – that the Catholic Church is obviously The Truth to mankind – why hasn’t humanity realised that God is the Truth, and the best way to serve God and attain salvation is through faith in and obedience to His Church? Why would they miss something so crucial to their lives and their souls?

As I said earlier, it’s for the same reason that even while Jesus is the Way and the Truth humanity didn’t realize it–even when they saw him, and spoke to him face to face.

By the way, this didn’t seem IMO consistent with catechism:

"843** The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images,** for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.“332”

I respond with a hearty AMEN! to the above!

Of course when a SDA says that it’s good to feed the poor, he is proclaiming a “truth found in” his religion. I give him a hearty AMEN! when he says this as well.

Why would nonbelievers have to search for God through other faiths, if the Catholic Church was obviously the way?

They don’t “have to”, Bezant. Nothing in the Catechism says they “have to” search for God through other faiths. Rather, the CC proclaims that there is no salvation outside the CC.

And then, I don’t need even the catechism to make my point. One day I’ll have kids, the responsibility to baptise them in the Catholic Church, assign them Catholic godparents, and provide solid Christian values and education in my home, strengthen them every Sunday at Mass, so they can take those values into the world and be good Christians.

Why would I need to care about any of that, if the Catholic Church was The Obvious Truth? They’d see it on their own!

This is, again, peculiar.

Why would they see it on their own?

Do you not intend to send your kids to school so they can learn science? Or do you believe they’re just going to “see it on their own” by watching TV?

 

[PRmerger]

No. You’re mixing my statement,

IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO MANKIND THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THEREFORE MANY MEN DON’T BELIEVE IN THE CHURCH,

I don’t disagree with this statement.

With your reasoning,

IT’S NOT OBVIOUS TO SOME PEOPLE IN MANKIND THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THEREFORE, BECAUSE THEY DON’T THINK THE CHURCH IS THE TRUTH, THE CHURCH IS NOT THE TRUTH.

Umm…no, Bezant. This is exactly NOT what I’m saying.

It’s like saying, it’s not obvious to me that President Obama is President of the United States. It doesn’t mean, because I don’t perceive him as President, that he’s not.

How odd. This analogy supports my POV quite well, so I thank you for sharing it.

Even though there are those who don’t think Obama is President, the truth is, he is.

Even though there are those who don’t think the CC is True, the truth is, it is.

People can deny that gravity obviously works, but when they walk out of 2 story window, the truth will hit them squarely in the face. Whether they perceive that gravity exists or not.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Good morning Gary, Please don’t be ???to Bezant he is responding as many Catholics do here but his only offense is not siding with your position. He is asking in honesty and is not being disrespectful…

Your not a mind reader, and still speaking for someone else:shrug:

Biblical evidence does not matter because it is not the final authority for you or the CC.

Then why are you referring to Bible without the specific verse? Not a difficult conversation, just direct. And you are speaking for me,now? I would appreciate you don’t, I’m sure I can speak for me. You always talk for everyone else and read minds?

Just remember if God rejected Israel and her priesthood He can reject any other.

Again this is how the questioned arrived. You state something with no-referrence. It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks, or if I agree with you, its YOUR opinion at this point…

Geez talk about ???

 

[jericho777]

Not sure what you mean. Can you provide a source for this please? (One from, of course, the Magisterium which declares that the EO are excommunicated.)

You both have the same apostolic succession and have differing doctrinal views. You both have been at odds for 1000 years you both can’t be right. Which of you is more right you or them?