Do traditional icons and images of Jesus and Mary as WHITE-SKINNED people harm efforts to evangelize our dark-skinned brethren?

[StandUp4Truth]

No. I don’t think people that react negatively to images that seem inappropriate (by their standards) as being shallow.
That would be like trying to go to a Fortune 500 Gathering and sell Barbie Dolls that weren’t in pink. Um… it just doesn’t fit. It’s not ‘appropriate’.
We are talking about telling someone of people in a part of the world where EVERY ONE ELSE has a certain look. But you are trying to sell them a Jesus that doesn’t look like the others of His geographic area.
… and your response is to refer to the audience as shallow?

Well, if you’re talking about our dark-skinned brothers in Africa, where the majority of people are black, then it makes sense to portray Jesus as black so they can identify with Him. However, your first post talked about people reading Malcolm X, so I assumed you were talking about black people here in the US. Here in America, black people make up a small minority, especially when compared to our hispanic brothers and sisters. If the parish has a black majority then it makes perfect sense to portray the Holy Family as black, just as Mexican churches portray them as Hispanic. In other words, the majority should decide, what benefit is there in portraying Jesus as black or white or somewhere in between when the MAJORITY of Americans see Him as white(historically inaccurate as it may be)?

1. Who said anything about ‘urban’? And even if they did (there have been a lot of posts on this) ‘urbanites’ aren’t the only ones we are talking of evangelizing to.

Even if you’re talking about rural areas, the only time it makes sense to portray the Holy Family as black is if there is a majority of black people in the area. Otherwise you’ll be sending them the wrong signals since the majority in this country view Him as a white dude(even though that will probably change as the number of Hispanics increases).

1. If you don’t get Ebonics, please leave them alone. Your comments are strife with inaccuracies. It’s pretty insulting.

I won’t even come up with a reply of some other example, because I really don’t care to insult someone else to prove this point.

Nice cop out! Don’t have the guts to do it then?

I suppose black people hold the patent on ebonics and their use? That sounds pretty racist, or at the very least judgemental, to me.

Have you looked at rappers today? I grew up listening to rap, and I’m just as qualified(or even moreso) to make those statements as you are, so who are you to critique me?

1. There is nothing wrong with using the vernacular of your audience, be they urban, speak ebonics, or any other description.

I agree only to the extent that you will be conducting the Mass in Ebonics, otherwise you’re selling people a lie. The point is, you can’t tell people that all Catholics see Jesus, Mary, and Joseph as black(which they’ll assume from the brochures) and sell them by speaking in their style, then they come to a Mass where the Holy Family is portrayed as white people and the priest speaks plain english - that’s cheating people.

In other words, you’re misrepresenting the Church and people will just leave because it’s not what you promised. Now, if the local Church is geared toward a certain ethnicity, then it makes sense that their materials reflect that. It depends on the area and the racial majority of each parish.

I happen to agree with a lot of this sentiment. But then, if it gets them in the door, and in the pew, it’s probably not all bad. Just not something that would attract either of us.

I would have a problem with rap being played or performed at Mass, because once again it would be misleading. The whole point of the Universal Church is that you can go to any Mass in the country and you’ll know what to do, throwing rap in the mix would go against that.

 

[StandUp4Truth]

continued

But is it more open and honest to represent (artistically) Jesus in a way that is obviously not correct? Who are you pandering to? And what is the benefit of such a pander?
Let us be open and honest. Jesus did not look like Jeffrey Hunter (the actor that portrayed Him in the 1960s movie, “King of Kings”).
That is what we (at least I) are talking against. That is not open or honest. Sadly, there are those that see that and think, ‘Oh, reality’

While portraying Jesus as white in most of the Catholic Churches in the country may not be historically accurate, that’s the way it is because there is a white majority in most parishes. That being said, to recruit people into the Church without admitting that the majority of churches have a white Jesus, Mary, and Joseph is misleading and will cause more harm than good. People will feel like they’ve been lied to, and if they think you lied about that, why should they believe anything else you said?

Everybody sees Jesus in a way that they can relate to, I personally see an Arabian man(not black, not white) with dark hair. Does that mean I’m offended or put off by the white Jesus hanging up in most Catholic Churches, or the black Jesus in many southern Baptist churches? NO, because to think that way would be shallow! It doesn’t matter what the image of some statue or painting is, the image in your heart is what matters!

 

[Apryl]

Have you looked at rappers today? I grew up listening to rap, and I’m just as qualified(or even moreso) to make those statements as you are, so who are you to critique me?

I’m the person bowing out of further discussion with you. At least on this topic.

Maybe we’ll come across a topic where you’ll read the posts, as they are written, and avoid putting your own spin on them.

I can at least pray for you. You seem like a nice enough person, but very young (at least, the way you think seems very young) and not aware that the world doesn’t end at your sidewalk.

This is not a slam. It’s a common thing for people who haven’t been exposed to a lot of other things.

I’ve made my comments on this thread. At least to you. Perhaps some one will post something where I can see myself responding.

But, for now, adieu.

 

[Petergee]

If anyone’s worried that white-skinned icons of Jesus and Mary might deter dark-skinned people from Catholicism, they can always use images of one of Europe’s hundreds of Black Madonna icons and statues (most of them with a with black baby Jesus). Funnily these images have been immensely popular devotions in Europe for centuries and the overwhelmingly white population of Europe wasn’t “put off” by Jesus’ and Mary’s black skin.

 

[victor_rose]

Has any white person reading this thread ever walked through an urban neighborhood (in the U.S.) wanting to witness God’s love to kids of color older than 8 years old?
I’d love to be able to approach them with the loving message of the gospel. Unfortunately, my skin color evokes hostility (or accusation being a police officer) before I can speak a word. (And passing out prayer cards picturing a Caucaisan Savior and Mother would probably not help).

I suppose I could model the teaching of Jesus by turning the other cheek, but to these unchurched children, it is a sign of weakness in me and a confirmation of the victory won by their anger.

Race may be becoming a more and more serious divider between urban black children and whites (of any class) than we think.

Do we blame them for this ignorance? Or our own history of urban white flight?

When will we start to take a hard look at why there is a severe lack of African American priests (and Catholics) in urban American neighborhoods? What evangilization can be encouraged by our white Catholic leadership in our big cities to convert the unchurched (or Protestant) peoples of color to Catholicism?

Does anyone else feel a calling to change this? Is anyone willing to be less legalistic about Catholic rules, and take a harder look at ecumenism with the plethora of urban Protestant storefront churches to help save our inner city youth?

 

[po18guy]

Has any white person reading this thread ever walked through an urban neighborhood (in the U.S.) wanting to witness God’s love to kids of color older than 8 years old?
Does anyone else feel a calling to change this? Is anyone willing to be less legalistic about Catholic rules, and take a harder look at ecumenism with the plethora of urban Protestant storefront churches to help save our inner city youth?

I also see urban Black flight. Nobody likes to live in turmoil. I witness to kids, urban or otherwise, one by one. You have their attention and can make a point and listen to one question at a time.

We just have to convince others to do the same.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[pyropam]

Unless we have seen Jesus or Mary ourselves then we have no idea exactly what they look like.

Chances are that they were darker skinned just because of how they were able to hide out in egypt. That would have been hard for anyone with fair skin.

They were from the middle east, not from Ireland, not from Asia, and definately not from America…

Does it really matter what color they were??

Find any small child and ask them what color another child is… They always respond…BROWN. We are all brown…just different shades of brown…

Inspired artist have done a wonderful job in most of the art that I have seen… After all… it’s all just guessing…

 

[ahem]

You call Malcom X an “idiot?”

It’s that kind of insensitivity that turns people away from religion.

 

[glide625]

I can’t seem to find a way to make a post but I wan’ted to day this.

I finally took a stand. The onely solution to racism in America today is Jesus.

I love you all and hope you understand what I’m saying. It’s been a revelation to me. It seems such a simple thing, but it’s so true. In Jesus, with Jesus, we can become and we are true brothers and sister in Christ.

Thanks

 

[Leopard]

You call Malcom X an “idiot?”

It’s that kind of insensitivity that turns people away from religion.

What word would you suggest?

 

[Apryl]

Obviously Malcolm X was an idiot. I refuse to believe that any more than a tiny minority of dark-skinned people are so stupid as to think a religion can only be true if its founder had the same colour skin as they have.

Hmmm… I don’t recall ever hearing any one (esp not in this thread, but the comment has never been heard by me away from this thread) taht any one - dark-skinned or not – believed that the religion had to have a founder with the same skin color they had.

This is a stretch, and affects the entire discussion.

The POINT is not whether or not has the same coloring as those that are being evangelized to, but that people are being evangelized, and some improbable image is being touted as truth.

Take a deep breath before you reply, please. It really does make sense.

Asians and Africans are pouring into the Church by the millions. Icons of Jesus and Mary as white-skinned don’t seem to deter them at all.

Perhaps the MILLIONS of Asians and Africans that are pouring into the church aren’t being shown images, but rather, hearing the Word of God.

This isn’t about the Word of God, though, but the images that are chosen to represent a church.

 

[Sr_Sally]

The Catholic Church in America is the one church I know of that IS multi-racial and does depict Jesus and Mary (and Joseph) in many different ways. When I go into Protestant churches I see a church for whites and a different church–even denomination–for blacks. In fact even the Muslim church in America is like that–one mosque for American (black) Muslims and another for native (Arabic) Muslims.

 

[inthecloud]

Mexican writer Octavio Paz once noted that Catholicism never was racialist, even during the Spanish colonial times. Masters and slaves were expected to go to the same churches and they did. And priest were the first to complain about the treatment of the indians and slaves.
African slaves in the Spanish Americas were doing images of black angels, black Marys with childs and many impresive and bloody cross carrying Jesus. The symbology of the latter is very touching, I can only imagine the message a black slave artist was sending his masters by making a suffering black Jesus for their church!
But I thing that in movies for the shake of realism, Biblical characters must be protrayed by Middle Easterners. That was something I did not like of Mel Gibson movie, he got the language right, he should have gotten the ethnicities right.

 

[thechrismyster]

How can we reach people of color, or Muslims, or non-believers who understand Malcom X’s teachings?

And, if Mary wasn’t white, why would she appear to us as white? Or, why would the ‘true’ Church present this. Is it a lie?

To make matters worse, this actually makes me question my faith in Marian apparitions, and my faith as a Catholic.

Please help!

The Black Madonna of Czestohowa would like to disagree with your assumption.

In my backyard… come and visit the shrine… The original is highly revered by my Polish kin back in the old country.

czestochowa.us/shrine_us.php

 

[Apryl]

The Black Madonna of Czestohowa would like to disagree with your assumption.

What is the assumption that OL of Czesthowa would disagree with?

 

[Apryl]

(I was just thinking of this topic a few hours ago, and felt the need to post… Nothing personal Pyropam, but your post most fits what I wanted to add)

Does it really matter what color they were??

Find any small child and ask them what color another child is… They always respond…BROWN. We are all brown…just different shades of brown…

Inspired artist have done a wonderful job in most of the art that I have seen… After all… it’s all just guessing…

I’m curious, with this thread being a stepping point: how would a White, non-Minority LOOKING person, feel going into a church where every image of Christ, Mary, the saints, the early fathers, were all NON-White? Would it bother you? would it be a distraction to you? How would your friends and family feel when you described the church to them?

While I do agree that how some artist depicts Christ and any other images in our world shouldn’t matter when we are supposed to be approaching the Redeemer, His Soul and Divinity, the fact is that we are human, and images do influence us.

Or, is that just something that affects Blacks and Hispanics?

 

[deb1]

(I was just thinking of this topic a few hours ago, and felt the need to post… Nothing personal Pyropam, but your post most fits what I wanted to add)

I’m curious, with this thread being a stepping point: how would a White, non-Minority LOOKING person, feel going into a church where every image of Christ, Mary, the saints, the early fathers, were all NON-White? Would it bother you? would it be a distraction to you? How would your friends and family feel when you described the church to them?

While I do agree that how some artist depicts Christ and any other images in our world shouldn’t matter when we are supposed to be approaching the Redeemer, His Soul and Divinity, the fact is that we are human, and images do influence us.

Or, is that just something that affects Blacks and Hispanics?

I don’t think that I would care. After all, Jesus was not white, he was middle eastern.

At the same time, I don’t see the harm in any racial group creating paintings or statues of Jesus that resemble them. It seems to me that Mary has appeared as the race of the individuals who were viewing her. So the Lady of Guadalupe looks Hispanic. I would imagine that she would appear blonde to an individual in a Northern European country.

It is our love for God that ultimately matters not how we envision him.

 

[ahem]

Hmm… It seems the idea for many of us is that historical accuracy is non-essential.

 

[Apryl]

Hmm… It seems the idea for many of us is that historical accuracy is non-essential.

Well, yeah… but for some, historical accuracy IS essential.

The problem is, if you as a lot of Americans (USA’ers), they will tell you that Jesus was White, with blond hair, blue eyes. (What they THINK is historical accuracy)

The good news is, America doesn’t make up the majority of people.

The better news is: no matter what any one may think, we can now educate every one what the historical accuracy is, and we can also get more artists to portray Christ as their people - whatever that may mean to them.

The OP, however, was asking if the representations matter when evangelizing to Blacks and Hispanics. I think that it matters no more to Blacks and Hispanics to have a Christ that doesn’t look like them then it does to Non-Blacks, and Non-Hispanics, to have a Chriest that doesn’ t look like them.

I’m sure it matters, but for many, it’s not a deal breaker.

 

[ahem]

Well, yeah… but for some, historical accuracy IS essential.

The problem is, if you as a lot of Americans (USA’ers), they will tell you that Jesus was White, with blond hair, blue eyes. (What they THINK is historical accuracy)

The good news is, America doesn’t make up the majority of people.

The better news is: no matter what any one may think, we can now educate every one what the historical accuracy is, and we can also get more artists to portray Christ as their people - whatever that may mean to them.

The OP, however, was asking if the representations matter when evangelizing to Blacks and Hispanics. I think that it matters no more to Blacks and Hispanics to have a Christ that doesn’t look like them then it does to Non-Blacks, and Non-Hispanics, to have a Chriest that doesn’ t look like them.

I’m sure it matters, but for many, it’s not a deal breaker.

It cannot accept that people in general are not affected by the images, especially if they think they represent deity.

The true images of God are not icons, but rather humanity, which is accurately racially diverse, and also male and female. Jesus was the true and essential Israelite and since Israel was the ambassador people to the nations (historically failing but ultimately succeeding in Christ) it is important that he was Jewish.

In my view, if the icon is not of a Palestinian Jew, there need be no icon at all, and anything otherwise is racist, deceptive, and as such, sinful.