Do we really want another 500 years of division between Catholics and Protestants?

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Attejohannes said:
My very last posting in this thread ( and this is a promise)
Since the discussion has been shifted from the title to the abomination of the reformation, I just briefly describe the Finnish example.

The Catholic Church had its chance for 500 years in Finland, but failed to make Finns a little better than baptized ( and in many cases even unbaptized) pagans. The popular religion was a kind of shamanism, in which the saints and old pagan deities were mixed in a very strange Pantheon. We have a rich collection of folklore and early written documents witnessing that.

When the Finnish Reformators started their job, it was more like missionary work rather than evangelization. But they had also missionary zeal. Within a century the whole Bible was translated into Finnish, the first University founded to improve the standard of the clergy, the network of parishes extended to the remotest corners of the land, the chatecesis school established and later made compulsory for boys and girls before they could receive their first communion. And all this was done in a country ravaged by war and famines and by a Church having only a fraction of the wealth and resources of the previous Catholic period.

In the 18 th century there was general literacy in the country, a sound popular but non- sectarian piety ( witness the very beautiful popular songs, full of sorron for the sin, longing to Christ and trust in His mercy). The spiritual side aseiden, the Lutheran clergy pioneered also in introducing novel methods of agriculture, novel crops, medical innovations. ( vaccination against small pox).

This was the way God chose to Christianize our country. When we in 2007 celebrated the blessed memory of Mikael Agricola, Luthers’s pupil, the Reformator of Finland and Bible translator, both Church and state paid their respects to this anathemized and obstinate heretic, who by God’s singular mercy, laid the foundation of both the spiritual and material wellfare of Finland
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Ah…so God had His chance with HIS Church and a time limit was placed so it meant a green light to go do your own thing…

Got it
 
PRmerger said:
I know more than millions of folks, yes. :yup:
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I very seriously doubt this. But my larger point was that you do not know how Lutheranism, rather than Catholicism, spread throughout Finland. Rather, you made insulting comments about the Finnish people - blaming them for not having the “wisdom” to accept Catholicism.

My basic question is this, PR, how many different ways are you going to find to insult non-Catholics? And how is insulting non-Catholics working for you in your efforts to “bring the wayward home?”
 
RickDecker said:
I very seriously doubt this. But my larger point was that you do not know how Lutheranism, rather than Catholicism, spread throughout Finland. Rather, you made insulting comments about the Finnish people - blaming them for not having the “wisdom” to accept Catholicism.

My basic question is this, PR, how many different ways are you going to find to insult non-Catholics? And how is insulting non-Catholics working for you in your efforts to “bring the wayward home?”
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Perhaps when you have something constructive to say I will address you.

Until then, as your posts betray your inner spirit, and I say, sadly,



Or, I may respond to assist the lurkers who may have a more willing spirit that is open to truth. 🤷
 
RickDecker said:
I very seriously doubt this. But my larger point was that you do not know how Lutheranism, rather than Catholicism, spread throughout Finland. Rather, you made insulting comments about the Finnish people - blaming them for not having the “wisdom” to accept Catholicism.

My basic question is this, PR, how many different ways are you going to find to insult non-Catholics? And how is insulting non-Catholics working for you in your efforts to “bring the wayward home?”
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Hi Rick,
One of the things I’v discovered is that, over an internet forum, sometimes words don’t express the nuances of the intentions of a poster.
My impression, through long experience with PR, is that she is not one to insult. I find her to be a charitable participant in dialogue, and I often learn from her.

Jon
 
RickDecker said:
FYP. 🙂 You see where this thread has gotten? No where.
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Rick,

This is CAF, it is a place where Catholics engage in answers to those that pose questions. It is a place where some come to believe they have something to teach Catholics and some do. It is a place where some agree and others disagree.

While I agree that dialogue over this cyberspace thing we call internet is not something we can touch necessarily…it is going somewhere not nowhere because Catholics, that come to CAF, base their thoughts on a Church that has an origin 2000 years ago, in the Church Christ founded, and while you may disagree that it is the same Church, it is going somewhere and I might add and beyond…

The only ones going nowhere are those that are, if you excuse me borrowing from John Nelson Darby, Scofield and Tim Lahaye…are those that will be…

Left Behind…and all I can say to those that believe as you say…think a bit…and again I borrow from Protestant services I have attended…

Get on board little children, room for many a more…

You always choose where you go even if it is no where…🙂
 
JonNC said:
Hi Rick,
One of the things I’v discovered is that, over an internet forum, sometimes words don’t express the nuances of the intentions of a poster.
My impression, through long experience with PR, is that she is not one to insult. I find her to be a charitable participant in dialogue, and I often learn from her.

Jon
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Awwww, you’re so sweet, friend. 🙂
 
CatherineOH said:
May I remind you that ML never wanted or intended to separate from the church. He was forced to leave. It just went down hill from there.
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I would think that a priest holding the view that the Papacy was not a valid part of the Church and calling the Pope the antichrist might seem reasonable grounds for excommunication.

“We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist,” How could he stay within the Church and hold such views?
 
Brendan_64 said:
I would think that a priest holding the view that the Papacy was not a valid part of the Church and calling the Pope the antichrist might seem reasonable grounds for excommunication.

“We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist,” How could he stay within the Church and hold such views?
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Do you have a date for the quote? Was it before, or after, *Exsurge Domine * in 1520?
Is it made leading up to exurge domine, or a response to it. The chronology is important to your statement.

Jon
 
The quote is dated August 18th 1520.

Then in October 1520 his book “On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church” was published where he described the Papacy as “Nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of the very Antichrist”.

These were a couple of months after “Exsurge Domine”, but before his actual excommunication in 1521. Exsurge Domine was a warning to Martin Luther, excommunication was not inevitable as a result of this warning. Martin Luther chose not to heed the warning, but instead went about publicly calling the Papacy, the seat of the antichrist. He didn’t really leave many options open to the Vatican. He was, in effect, inviting excommunication.

Very sad really considering his original protests against sales of indulgences and other abuses were reasonable and much called for. He seemed to just spin out of control after his well-motivated and decent attempts to highlight corruption were ignored.
 
The Holy Spirit will continue to go forth drawing souls into obedience to Christ regardless of the official authority it’s done under. The apostles asked Jesus if He wanted them to stop the man casting out demons in Jesus name because that man wasn’t one of them and Jesus told them no. The ultimate end of the Gospel is to produce people who have been formed into the image of Christ who, like Him, are perfectly obedient to the Father. The Catholic Church and her traditions are means to that end, but are not themselves that end. The breadth, depth and power of the Spirit of God are wider still. I praise God for anyone who sincerely desires to obey Christ in all things, and I bless the feet of those who go out preaching the Gospel of peace.

And I praise the Lord of Heaven and Earth, whose love cannot be contained, but bears fruit in all times and places.
 
Prie_dieu said:
No we do not. The solution to avoid any further disunity among Christians is very simple; everyone should become Catholic.

Ad Jesum per Mariam!
Prie-dieu.
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I’ve proposed the same thing on another thread… and as I ponder it again, I realize how big of a challenge this would be for most North American RC parishes.

Imagine trying to get the thousands of rigid DREs, liturgy/music directors, and priests to understand what to do with all the on-fire charismatic pray-ers/worshipers, talented worship leaders/bands, choir members, bible-study leaders, etc, etc, etc!!! Makes me laugh (in a nice way)…

But I’d still love to see it happen! (and am doing my best as a lay charismatic/born-again Roman Catholic to try)
 
Unity can only come through mutual submission to Christ in the Holy Spirit. It has to be organic, not merely formal. There will be unity amongst all those who love and obey Christ over everything else.
 
As I consider the question posed by the OP, I would ask the posters in this thread the following questions:

Do you believe that:
  1. Martin Luther and the other founders of the Lutheran Reformation were at least partly influenced by Evil and/or the Devil during the years 1517 through 1521?
  2. the individual Catholic opponents (not the Catholic Church) of Luther and the Lutheran Reformation were at least partly influenced by Evil and/or the Devil during the years 1517 through 1521?
  3. Lutheran thinkers and theologians were/are at least partly influenced by Evil and/or the Devil as they developed Lutheran theology in the years since the Reformation?
  4. Lutherans worship a false god?
  5. Lutherans are at least partly influenced by Evil and/or the Devil when they participate in the Lutheran worship service?
  6. your answers to the above questions (except #2) are different when asked about other Protestant (post 1517) denominations?
As I have lurked in CAF the last few months, I have often tried to understand the views of the Catholic Church and of individual Catholics who post at CAF. I think that answers to these questions will help me to do this and answer the question posed in the OP.

Thank you and God bless.
 
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