Do we sin when not loving God as much as we can?

[Bookcat]

The sin is when we are not loving Love with all our soul, all our heart, all our soul and all our strength. I believe that it’s OK if we do not interpret the passage of scripture the same way; God may well want it to be that way.

No God does not want us to take that passage that way…

if one means that if one watches a sports game or does some good entertainment that for that reason one is sinning and not loving God with all ones heart soul and strength.

Now could God want certain persons to give up various entertainments - such as say Monks to give up TV? Sure that can be (Carthusians for example do not have TV etc. -they live in solitude and silence largely).

 

[ready]

My point, and here’s where we may disagree, is what is the source of the pleasure that a person is experiencing at any point of time? I’m saying that must be from the Holy Spirit, and not of the flesh, if it to be viewed as being righteous. So, yes, I can definitely see where a person enjoying football could be a most holy person.

LOVE!

We don’t disagree on the point about pleasures and the flesh.

People who like watching football aren’t all necessarily prompted by the flesh (lusts) though; some of them just have an innocent interest in the GOOD fun of the sport: and the Scriptures says that all GOOD things come from above. God bless you.

 

[Bookcat]

My point, and here’s where we may disagree, is what is the source of the pleasure that a person is experiencing at any point of time? I’m saying that must be from the Holy Spirit, and not of the flesh, if it to be viewed as being righteous. :

(again setting aside the “football” part -and using the term “sport” or other good entertainment).

The phrase “the flesh” referring of course not to the body here but to sinful desires and choices.

So yes it is not to be “from the flesh”.

But it can be quite “natural” and not directly “supernatural” and be good - such as being part of the Creation of God.

Of course though we are to always “be a Christian” -“in Christ” and so living. So it is to be a Christian enjoying the sport etc.

 

[Robert_Sock]

CHRIST. My son, carefully observe the impulses of nature and grace, for these are opposed one to another, and work in so subtle a manner that even a spiritual, holy and enlightened man can hardly distinguish them.
“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 3, Chapter 54

 

[thistle]

CHRIST. My son, carefully observe the impulses of nature and grace, for these are opposed one to another, and work in so subtle a manner that even a spiritual, holy and enlightened man can hardly distinguish them.
“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 3, Chapter 54

Listen Robert. If you want to live as a hermit and cut yourself off from society, leisure, having fun that is your choice. God gave us free will and you may do that but please do not try to lecture us and tell us that we should all be doing that otherwise it is a sin or an act of folly. Frankly that makes you judgmental and foolish because neither Christ nor his Church teaches that. You have a free choice to do what you want. Don’t try to impose it on us.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Listen Robert. If you want to live as a hermit and cut yourself off from society, leisure, having fun that is your choice. God gave us free will and you may do that but please do not try to lecture us and tell us that we should all be doing that otherwise it is a sin or an act of folly. Frankly that makes you judgmental and foolish because neither Christ nor his Church teaches that. You have a free choice to do what you want. Don’t try to impose it on us.

Where did I ever try and impose my views on others? Quoting from The Imitation of Christ? Sharing my religious thoughts and lifestyle? Sorry that you misunderstood my intentions.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Beware of the folly contained worldly pleasures.

For spiritual comfort surpasses all worldly delights and bodily pleasures. All worldly pleasures are either vain or unseemly; spiritual joys alone are pleasant and honourable, for they spring from virtue, and are infused by God into the pure of heart.
“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 2, Chapter 10

 

[Bookcat]

Yes adultery and theft etc are evil.

Prayer and almsgiving is good.

Choose life not death.

 

[ready]

+JMJ+

You know, I think we can all end this silliness with a dose of St. Thomas Aquinas, wherein he wrote that (obviously) one can sin by playing too much, yet one can also sin by playing too little: newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm

Robert,

You may think that others are sinning by engaging in innocent recreations in moderation (by “playing” at times), but has it ever occurred to you that in light of what St. Thomas Aquinas says, it is you yourself who could be the one who is sinning – by “playing too little,” as St. Thomas puts it. I know what Thomas a Kempis says in his book and I agree with everything he says in Imitation of Christ, but I will not disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas (a saint), and believe that neither he nor Thomas a Kempis contradict each other.

It appears one problem we have here is that you make ALL recreation equivalent to enjoying worldly pleasures. Worldly pleasures are pleasures that take us away from God, they are sinful and should not be engaged in – they are worldly and do nothing to help us supernaturally. Attending a football game for some can be very innocent recreation that makes them appreciate God and love Him more, like when people go to football games for family reasons and for good reasons (e.g. just to enjoy the goodness of the Lord’s blessings: rest on a beautiful day, fun entertainment for them, the company of wholesome friends, the enjoyment of wholesome competition and skill found in God’s creatures, etc… ), which is good for their soul, not harmful to it, like worldly pleasures. I am NOT advocating people attending sports events on Sundays and I am not interested myself in attending sports events for my recreation at any time; I just think we need to understand better the difference between worldly pleasures and innocent pleasures that can actually make some people appreciate God and love Him more. Worldly pleasures are not to be engaged in, as Thomas a Kempis indicates in his book; and I agree with him 100%. But innocent pleasures that do make some people appreciate and love God more can not be considered merely a “worldly pleasure” for they have the effect of giving glory and honor to God in the person who appreciates and loves God more by having engaged in them. Worldly pleasures can not have this effect. For example, If I were to sew because I like to make very fancy clothing for myself as my recreation so I can later show them off to my friends, this is not the same thing as if I were to sew for recreation to make Brown Scapulars for a mission. Clearly, we have the same recreation in both cases: sewing. But in one case it involves a worldly pleasure, in the other case it does not. What I am saying is that we need to properly distinguish worldly pleasures from pleasures that are not worldly; we need to understand the difference between good recreation and bad recreation which should not be engaged in. Is watching football a recreation that should be avoided? Is it always and in every case mere worldly pleasure to watch a game? I myself want nothing to do with the sport, but I think that good holy Catholics watching some football games from time to time isn’t necessarily a wrong or harmful decision, if they were to benefit in some good and supernatural way by attending a game. God bless you.

 

[ready]

Beware of the folly contained worldly pleasures.

For spiritual comfort surpasses all worldly delights and bodily pleasures. All worldly pleasures are either vain or unseemly; spiritual joys alone are pleasant and honourable, for they spring from virtue, and are infused by God into the pure of heart.
“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 2, Chapter 10

True, but this does not mean that people should not regularly engage in wholesome recreation for the refreshment of their body and soul. A bow that stays taut 24/7 breaks after a while, it needs a break from time to time in order to stay good, effective and right – and so do human beings. We must be sure that in our recreation we love God and give glory and honor to Him – that’s all. We should not stop “playing” altogether like you seem to advocate. To do so goes against reason and what St. Thomas Aquinas says in the quote I keep pointing out to you.

 

[christofirst]

I agree with what Ready says in post 107 (too long to quote, but right on target).
My grandfather-in-law of blessed memory was a BIG fan of Notre Dame football - AND one of the most holy men I ever personally knew. I’m no fan of football either, but he loved it for all the right reasons. He loved seeing the athletes reach their full potential of body and mind, the result of hard work, discipline, and sacrifice. He loved the strategy of the game, the coaches using their God-given intellect to out-think the opponent. He loved good sportsmanship, when both teams left the “rivalry” on the field. He almost made me a fan of the game! He certainly gave me a better understanding of wholesome recreation.

I think the problem is in the wording of the title here: Do WE sin not loving God as much as WE can. It creates a false assumption, lumping us all in the same bag. Now, if the OP really loves football, but decides to give it up so as to devote himself to God in a way he thinks is more meaningful, that is very commendable. But in this case, one size does not fit all.

 

[Bookcat]

I will set aside the question of “football” - I am not a football person - neither American nor European (and my children will not play the American…) (I am not a sports person in any way really…).

But can involving oneself in a hobby or a good sport or game etc be compatible with love of God? Yes.

The Popes (even Pope Benedict XVI who was not so much a sportsman like St. Pope John Paul II) speak of Sports (rightly played and understood) as good. Pope Francis just did so recently (like in the last day or so) -calling it a form of education even. Expressing his hopes that they will experience the pleasure and beauty of playing as a team. He said if there was no sports in a parish “something is missing”.

Need one be conscious at all times in ones thoughts of God in order to Love God? No.

Can recreation be good and compatible with the Love of God? Yes. As even noted by the desert Fathers up above and also St. Bruno the Father of the Carthusian Order speaking of the pleasant surrounding beauties of nature : “If the bow is stretched for too long, it becomes slack and unfit for its purpose.”

And his Carthusians go for a walk into the woods from their monastery and talk among themselves every week.

Of course the recreation of a Monk who lives in a cell and monastery can differ from that of a person or family in the world.

Now of course one ought to choose wisely -as a Christian – what recreation one engages in or ones family. Much in our culture is not fitting for such.

Is it good to keep ones thoughts often on God? Yes it can be very good. And very much good to keep ones heart turned towards the Lord (short prayers during the day- a very ancient practice -is good to assist us in this). But just because one is not consciously thinking of God does not mean that one is not Loving him.

Is there also a “virtual” Love that can thus continue when one doing various things in an involved way? Yes.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert,

You may think that others are sinning by engaging in innocent recreations in moderation (by “playing” at times), but has it ever occurred to you that in light of what St. Thomas Aquinas says, it is you yourself who could be the one who is sinning – by “playing too little,” as St. Thomas puts it. I know what Thomas a Kempis says in his book and I agree with everything he says in Imitation of Christ, but I will not disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas (a saint), and believe that neither he nor Thomas a Kempis contradict each other.

It appears one problem we have here is that you make ALL recreation equivalent to enjoying worldly pleasures. Worldly pleasures are pleasures that take us away from God, they are sinful and should not be engaged in – they are worldly and do nothing to help us supernaturally. Attending a football game for some can be very innocent recreation that makes them appreciate God and love Him more, like when people go to football games for family reasons and for good reasons (e.g. just to enjoy the goodness of the Lord’s blessings: rest on a beautiful day, fun entertainment for them, the company of wholesome friends, the enjoyment of wholesome competition and skill found in God’s creatures, etc… ), which is good for their soul, not harmful to it, like worldly pleasures. I am NOT advocating people attending sports events on Sundays and I am not interested myself in attending sports events for my recreation at any time; I just think we need to understand better the difference between worldly pleasures and innocent pleasures that can actually make some people appreciate God and love Him more. Worldly pleasures are not to be engaged in, as Thomas a Kempis indicates in his book; and I agree with him 100%. But innocent pleasures that do make some people appreciate and love God more can not be considered merely a “worldly pleasure” for they have the effect of giving glory and honor to God in the person who appreciates and loves God more by having engaged in them. Worldly pleasures can not have this effect. For example, If I were to sew because I like to make very fancy clothing for myself as my recreation so I can later show them off to my friends, this is not the same thing as if I were to sew for recreation to make Brown Scapulars for a mission. Clearly, we have the same recreation in both cases: sewing. But in one case it involves a worldly pleasure, in the other case it does not. What I am saying is that we need to properly distinguish worldly pleasures from pleasures that are not worldly; we need to understand the difference between good recreation and bad recreation which should not be engaged in. Is watching football a recreation that should be avoided? Is it always and in every case mere worldly pleasure to watch a game? I myself want nothing to do with the sport, but I think that good holy Catholics watching some football games from time to time isn’t necessarily a wrong or harmful decision, if they were to benefit in some good and supernatural way by attending a game. God bless you.

I’m in no way trying to say that everyone who engages in sports is sinning. Yes God can use that experience to bring people closer to Himself, but what I am suggesting is that many of us may be falling short in Christ’s first commandment, that we should love God with all our soul, all our heart, all our mind and all our strength. I used our strong involvement with sports, and our gaining worldly pleasure though them, as a form of sin that many are unaware of.

I’m not disagreeing with Saint Thomas about recreational time, but I still contend that such time is ill spent if we are valuing worldly pleasure, as opposed to experiencing and valuing the peaceful joy of the Holy Spirit.

We are all sinners, and nowhere is this more evident to me than in our trying to fulfill Christ’s first commandment, which we all fall short of.

To have divine LOVE as our only value is most righteous. To value worldly things, like football in and of itself, is to detract from our loving God to utmost degree as we have been commanded.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

=Robert Sock;12072818 I used our strong involvement with sports, and our gaining worldly pleasure though them, as a form of sin that many are unaware of.

Worldly pleasure - that is sinful pleasure.

Sports per se are not such.

As Pope St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and recently Pope Francis remind us.

(and I say such as a non-sports person).

Though of course they could become sinful (become worldly pleasure) --say via excess etc.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Worldly pleasure - that is sinful pleasure.

Undesirable pleasure, if not sinful. The Imitation of Christ speaks about us avoiding worldly pleasure throughout the book.

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

Undesirable pleasure, if not sinful. The Imitation of Christ speaks about us avoiding worldly pleasure throughout the book.

Undesirable pleasure? Huh? You mean temptations that come that are not consented to? Right various temptations can happen to one without any consent.

Worldly pleasure: lust, greed, theft, gluttony, lying, fornication, adultery…etc.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Undesirable pleasure? Huh? You mean temptations that come that are not consented to?

Worldly pleasure: lust, greed, theft, gluttony, lying, fornication, adultery…etc.

No, I think Thomas a Kempis is talking about worldly pleasures in a much broader sense.

For spiritual comfort surpasses all worldly delights and bodily pleasures. All worldly pleasures are either vain or unseemly; spiritual joys alone are pleasant and honourable, for they spring from virtue, and are infused by God into the pure of heart.
“The Imitation of Christ,” Book 2, Chapter 10

LOVE!

 

[Bookcat]

No, I think Thomas a Kempis is talking about worldly pleasures in a much broader sense.

Well if one wishes to speak in a “much broader sense” - in a sense that of those things that are good but which are not of a directly religious- Christian nature - then one must say not that they are sinful per se (for they are not) but that yes the joys etc of life with God - either here in this pilgrimage or in heaven and then in the Resurrection -* far surpass* the goods that God has (otherwise) given us during our pilgrimage -or that Man by his cooperation with what God has given - has produced or invented – then yes that would be true.

Such gifts though of the non- religious nature are not “not gifts” they remain gifts for which to be thankful for and it is good to engage in them reasonably (see my long post above) while avoiding that which is sinful.

Of course it can also be of great good to set many things aside and turn explicitly to the things of God…via reading, meditation, prayer and contemplation. Some are called to devote much of life in such -others less. It is very important! Sundays are especially good for devoting more time to such. But in any case -even those who are committed to a cell - need to have some time of recreation - to not keep the bow to taught as St. Bruno noted.

The Church though does not look at say Sports (again I mean in general without getting into a specific sport…some can be off the rails) as a negative but as a good. Read the Popes on such.

 

[Bookcat]

Read the Popes on such.

“Next Friday, 8 August, the 29th Olympic Games will begin in Beijing. I am pleased to address to the host Country, to the organizers and to the participants, and first of all to the athletes, my cordial greeting and the hope that each one may give of his or her best in the genuine Olympic spirit. I am following with deep interest this great sports event - the most important and anticipated in the world…” ~ Pope Benedict XVI

Also:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20051129_olimpiadi-torino_en.html****

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20001028_jubilsport_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20001029_jubilee-sport_en.html

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/may/documents/papa-francesco_20140502_squadre-coppa-italia.html (football here means soccer for those of us in the USA)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Read the Popes on such.

“Next Friday, 8 August, the 29th Olympic Games will begin in Beijing. I am pleased to address to the host Country, to the organizers and to the participants, and first of all to the athletes, my cordial greeting and the hope that each one may give of his or her best in the genuine Olympic spirit. I am following with deep interest this great sports event - the most important and anticipated in the world…” ~ Pope Benedict XVI

Also:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2005/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20051129_olimpiadi-torino_en.html****

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20001028_jubilsport_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20001029_jubilee-sport_en.html

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2014/may/documents/papa-francesco_20140502_squadre-coppa-italia.html (football here means soccer for those of us in the USA)

We are all on different paths in this life, and experience things differently. If I felt the Holy Spirit drawing me anywhere, I would surely want to follow. But too often our desires are worldly in origin, and therefore folly. And again, as long as we are on this earth, we will engage in folly of one sort or another. This is not to say that God can’t use our folly for a greater good, but I still think we try and minimize our folly, and seek to love God with all our soul, all our heart, all our mind and all our strength. This to me is of greatest wisdom, and should be practiced to the fullest extent humanly possible.

LOVE!