Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[ishii]

If Obama and the Democrats are supposed to be so blatantly pro-abortion then where are the statistics that would surely have resulted from such a policy? The number of abortions during the Obama years has been slightly less than the number of abortions during the Bush years. It sounds like you are more interested in what people say than what actually happens to unborn babies.

I think you need to take a closer look, LeafByNiggle. The number of abortions might fluctuate based on a different factors - demographics, attitudes, etc. that are independent of the president’s policy on abortion. Bottom line, the president can do very little to change the number of abortions except at the margins. Where the president can change things is by using the bully pulpit but most of all, by restoring the courts to the a constructionist ideology that would overturn Roe V Wade. For example - if you had a racist pro-segregationist president that presided over states that were going against racist segregationist views - in opposition to the president, would that make the president any less racist?

Here is NARAL president Nancy Keegan at the DNC abortion lovefest: " I am proud to say that the Democratic party believes that women have the right to choose …abortion with dignity." With dignity? And here is the Democrat candidate Darcy Burner in a campaign speech recently: " if you are a woman who has had an abortion, stand up. Give 'em a cheer."

Still the think the Democrat party isn’t pro-abortion LeafByNiggle?

Ishii

 

[CatholcCrusader]

If Obama and the Democrats are supposed to be so blatantly pro-abortion then where are the statistics that would surely have resulted from such a policy?..

Who needs statistics when you have their own words!!! Abortion “rights” are their platform. Whats wrong with you man.

Thats like saying “Prove Hitler really hated Jews.” Who needs to prove it when you have the man’s own word’s.

Sheese!!

 

[tqualey]

Is there anyone else, besides LeafByNiggle, that thinks Obama and the Democratic Party is not pro-abortion?

God bless

 

[jediliz]

Obama supports Planned Parenthood and abortion with very little, if any, restrictions. The evidence is pretty clear.

And didn’t he threaten to shut down the government if lawmakers DARED to try to DEFUND Planned Parenthood in the budget?

The problem is that Planned Parenthood has painted itself as good for poor women, wheh in reality, they are in the business of killing the babies of those poor, vulnerable and misguided women. Many of these women buy the lies about fetal development Planned Parenthood has fed them.

Planned Parenthood, whom Obama loves, was founded by a racist eugencist (Margaret Sanger) that would have been glad if Obama’s mother had taken birth control…she hated Blacks! There’s a quote about getting colored ministers to promote birth control to their congregations and something like “we don’t want it to get out that we want to exterminiate the negro race”. Yes, she actually SAID THAT.

Romney may not be the best choice, but if we don’t want MORE attacks on our freedom of religion, MORE things like the HHS mandate to be forced on us…he is our best hope.

My first choice was Santorum, but it seems too many people were afraid of his “radical” ideas…including being staunchly pro life (I believe he may have been a no exceptions?) and a practicing Catholic. And a man who has truly lived pro life…he has a special needs child.

 

[CatholcCrusader]

Is there anyone else, besides LeafByNiggle, that thinks Obama and the Democratic Party is not pro-abortion?

God bless

LeafByNiggle is now on the ignore list. I only talk to people who are in touch with reality.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, CatholicCrusader,

Well… that is your choice - but, I think you are making a big mistake.

Leaf claims to be a Catholic and has been on this thread - and yet appears to support Obama and his pro-abortion policies. Now, the only assumption I can make is that Leaf is acting in good faith - and, he is doing this out of ignorance.

If you ‘ignore’ him and leave him in ‘ignor - ance’ that seems like dropping the ball to me. We have <60 days left to defeat Obama at the ballot box - every vote counts. We really can not ‘ignore’ anyone who can possibly be changed to just see Obama for what he is… besides a gifted orator.

Leaf is certainly welcomed to continue to post - and if he continues with statements that simply do not match reality - I will respond with documentation on his error.

We all will have to answer to God for how we vote - and promoting the postion of the Catholic Church on promoting life - is what we will need to address now - because it will come up again when we meet God.

God bless

LeafByNiggle is now on the ignore list. I only talk to people who are in touch with reality.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Who needs statistics when you have their own words!!! Abortion “rights” are their platform. Whats wrong with you man.

Thats like saying “Prove Hitler really hated Jews.” Who needs to prove it when you have the man’s own word’s.

Sheese!!

I am not naive. I know the Democratic platform and the position of most Democrats is blatantly pro-choice. And use the term pro-choice instead of pro-abortion because it is more accurate. There is not a Democrat I know who actually prefers that someone get an abortion. It is not like in China where the government really is pro-abortion because they force it on women. But my point about the statistics is that the reason to vote against a pro-choice candidate is to reduce the number of abortions - to zero hopefully. But if a reduction is not supported by statistics then much of the justification for that vote is weakened. It becomes a mostly symbolic gesture - sort of like putting a bumper sticker on your car. Since the statistics for abortions (1.2 million per year) are often cited as reason for raising the alarm then why not look at statistical trends as well? Those trends seem to indicate that regardless of what any politician says about abortion one can be justified in being skeptical that any actual abortions will be affected by that politician one way or the other.

As for proving Hitler hated the Jews, that one is easy. Just count up the number of Jews killed in concentration camps. That is an instance where the statistics and the stated view of the politician agree perfectly.

 

[ProVobis]

Hang on a minute there, ProVobis, you know better then that!

Sorry but I’ve been trained in physics and math and I have worked in the private sector as a physicist for a few years. I look at data and the possibility of errors before I even begin to draw a conclusion. I have a patent to my name and notebooks which my colleagues have complemented me on. When I hear stuff like what I hear from the “conservatives” who debunk data when it doesn’t fit their curve, I wonder how we ever got out of the earth’s atmosphere and make it to the moon in the first place. Or even fly from place to place, for that matter. I’m done with this thread.

 

[CatholcCrusader]

LeafByNiggle is now on the ignore list. I only talk to people who are in touch with reality.

Hi, CatholicCrusader,

Well… that is your choice - but, I think you are making a big mistake.

Leaf claims to be a Catholic and has been on this thread - and yet appears to support Obama and his pro-abortion policies. Now, the only assumption I can make is that Leaf is acting in good faith - and, he is doing this out of ignorance.

If you ‘ignore’ him and leave him in ‘ignor - ance’ that seems like dropping the ball to me. We have <60 days left to defeat Obama at the ballot box - every vote counts. We really can not ‘ignore’ anyone who can possibly be changed to just see Obama for what he is… besides a gifted orator.

Leaf is certainly welcomed to continue to post - and if he continues with statements that simply do not match reality - I will respond with documentation on his error.

We all will have to answer to God for how we vote - and promoting the postion of the Catholic Church on promoting life - is what we will need to address now - because it will come up again when we meet God.

God bless

You may be right, but I know myself, I know I have a low tolerance for Catholics who defend the pro-death Democrat party, and I know its best if I ignore them. If I don’t, then I’ll end up saying something extremely uncharitable.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Leaf claims to be a Catholic and has been on this thread - and yet appears to support Obama and his pro-abortion policies.

I have never claimed to support Obama or his pro-abortion policies. I just call out hyperbole, exaggeration, and misstatements when I see them. Instead of trying to guess my motives it would be more productive to address the content of my arguments directly. In particular I raised the question of whether the reasonably expected results of a candidate getting elected is more or less significant than the stated position or desires of that candidate. This question applies to Obama, Romney, indeed every candidate. I put forth the hypothesis that the expected end results (in this case the number of abortions) do matter a lot. But some may think the position and actions of the candidate matter more (such as funding Planned Parenthood). I am open to arguments for that view if someone cares to make them.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Please charitably discuss the issues, not each other

 

[tqualey]

Hi, LeafByNeggle,

There are several serious problems with your argument. So, let’s just take it point by point and move forward.

I am glad you know about the Democratic Party’s Platform - and you apparently have bought into the Planned Parenthood fantasy that chosing to have your baby butchered is a right. You are more then welcome to continue with the word fantasy - but, please, don’t think others have fallen for this illusion.

Comparing abortion encouragement/funding policies in the US with the murderous policies of China is like comparing an acorn and an oak. They are both in favor of butchery of their unborn citizens - this is a quantative issue, not a qualitative one.

The issue of statistics is at best tricky - just where are you getting your numbers. I already called for you to produce a source - and you chose to just continue making unsubstantiated statements. And, once you get some numbers - look at their source… and see if it is the Guttmacher Institute - the ‘research’ arm of Planned Parenthood. Here is a link to their home page: guttmacher.org/ These guys are under no obligation to get anything right - and it is amazing how these induced / elective abortions (there is an ICD-9 Code for this) are not required to be reported when done at a PP ‘butcher shop’. I mention this because neither PP or GI do business at an arm’s distance - and there is no real reason for PP to really want publish the number of abortions that they are doing.

For groups that pride themselves on actually being able to get data and manipulate it so that things like trends and statistical tests can be done to see what is really going on - it all hinges on GIGO data factor (Garbage In Garbage Out).

This becomes interesting when PP in several states is under Federal investigation for Medicaid fraud.

Now, from what I gather, you seem to be saying that since voting Obama out of office will not end abortion - bring it to 0 - then we might as well keep Obama. Do you really want us to develop more policies so that we become more like China’s approach to abortion? There is a significant choice facing us in November - and I really do not think you are demonstrating that you see a difference between Obama and any of his rivals for the Office of President. I would really appreciate you clarifying how the postion you have posted on this thread is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church on this matter. Thank you.

Now, your issue about proving Hitler’s policies matched the bodies of the murdered Jews falls flat, too. You see, there is no mass grave for all of the butchered unborn, no crematoria for their broken bodies and no family members visibly grieving for their displacement and loss. Apparently, butchered babies are suitable for disposal in the dumpster and then a landfill. Maybe they go out as biological / hazardous waste and then incinerated with the other waste. No reall accounting is possible.

In brief. you have presented no real argument for the position you are advocating. I realize that you realize that, too - but the reason for my response is for anyone who is not posting but reading this material. If you chose to try again - be my guest. But, rest assured that your statements will nto go unchallenged and then disproven.

God bless

I am not naive. I know the Democratic platform and the position of most Democrats is blatantly pro-choice. And use the term pro-choice instead of pro-abortion because it is more accurate. There is not a Democrat I know who actually prefers that someone get an abortion. It is not like in China where the government really is pro-abortion because they force it on women. But my point about the statistics is that the reason to vote against a pro-choice candidate is to reduce the number of abortions - to zero hopefully. But if a reduction is not supported by statistics then much of the justification for that vote is weakened. It becomes a mostly symbolic gesture - sort of like putting a bumper sticker on your car. Since the statistics for abortions (1.2 million per year) are often cited as reason for raising the alarm then why not look at statistical trends as well? Those trends seem to indicate that regardless of what any politician says about abortion one can be justified in being skeptical that any actual abortions will be affected by that politician one way or the other.

As for proving Hitler hated the Jews, that one is easy. Just count up the number of Jews killed in concentration camps. That is an instance where the statistics and the stated view of the politician agree perfectly.

 

[pnewton]

The evils promoted by the Democrat party are lightyears beyond any perceived or faux “evil” people might associate with Republicans.

Faux evil? I am not quite ready to see the Romney and Ryan canonized of the Republican Party equated with the angels. I think there are many who agree and do not see the Republicans as always being on the side of morality.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are several serious problems with your argument. So, let’s just take it point by point and move forward.

I am glad you know about the Democratic Party’s Platform - and you apparently have bought into the Planned Parenthood fantasy that chosing to have your baby butchered is a right.

I have no idea how you got that out of anything I said.

Comparing abortion encouragement/funding policies in the US with the murderous policies of China is like comparing an acorn and an oak. They are both in favor of butchery of their unborn citizens - this is a quantative issue, not a qualitative one.

I disagree. I think forced abortions are qualitatively different from allowing the mothers to choose abortions. There are both wrong, I’ll grant you. But in the case of forced abortions 100% of the blame lies with the agency that is doing the forcing. But in the case of allowing mothers to choose abortions, a sizable portion (I would argue the largest part) of the blame lies with the women who choose abortion. Regardless of the quantities involved, I would call that difference qualitative.

The issue of statistics is at best tricky - just where are you getting your numbers. I already called for you to produce a source - and you chose to just continue making unsubstantiated statements. And, once you get some numbers - look at their source… and see if it is the Guttmacher Institute - the ‘research’ arm of Planned Parenthood.

I did not know that. Thank you for enlightening me. Can you point me to some more reliable statistics that say the number of abortions during the Bush years was lower than those of the Obama years? If so I will gladly retract my conclusion.

Now, from what I gather, you seem to be saying that since voting Obama out of office will not end abortion - bring it to 0 - then we might as well keep Obama.

Not at all. I would be happy voting against Obama if abortions went down even a tiny bit. I’m not asking for the impossible.

Do you really want us to develop more policies so that we become more like China’s approach to abortion?

I’ve never heard Obama or any other contemporary major US politician call for forced abortions.

I would really appreciate you clarifying how the postion you have posted on this thread is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church on this matter.

The only “position” I have posted is that the expected end result of a candidate being elected can matter more than what the candidate says he will do. I’m not aware of any Catholic doctrine that says otherwise. In any case I would think that the burden would be on those who think that position is contrary to Catholic doctrine to show how that is so.

Now, your issue about proving Hitler’s policies matched the bodies of the murdered Jews falls flat, too. You see, there is no mass grave for all of the butchered unborn, no crematoria for their broken bodies and no family members visibly grieving for their displacement and loss.

I was only answering the question raised in post #650. I never attempted to make the connection with the abortion issue, so I can’t defend why it was brought up in the first place.

 

[je333]

Most people here are so preoccupied with only one issue(abortion) on their mind as the ultimate deciding point to cast their vote that they have forgotten almost all other issues that as important and weigh equal concerns. Being a pro life, in my opinion, should not only support opposition to the legalization of abortion but also must oppose to war and capital punishment, support environmental care and protection, and it should extend to mean helping the poor, caring for the sick, and being there for people who need you.

Since almost everyone here are pious and religious, for me, I would ask everyone about the central core of their beliefs. There’s one thing that tops abortion as a greater evil because this one concerns the central figure, Jesus Christ. Within the bounds of Christian beliefs, which candidate denies the divinity of Jesus Christ? And to whom would Jesus direct this message to from Matthew 7:21 - 23. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Je333,

Yes, ending abortion is the primary focus of Catholic policy - this means it moves ahead of every other legitimate concern. Here is a source: catholicanew.com/abortion-magisterium-main.htm

The principle behind this is that you have to be alive before anything else can happen. Work for life for the unborn and then focus on the next right you want to accomplish.

Now concerning this matter of which candidate denies the divinity of Jesus - that is quite a question. As I understand it, Mormons do not believe Christ is God in the same sense that most Christians do. Now, that is pretty clear cut when it comes to looking at Romney. To the best of my knowledge, Romney is a faithful Mormon - do you have anything different on that matter? You know, I recall in Mark 10 and Matthew 19, Christ rebuked the Apostles and said, “Let the little children come to me.”

I have no earthly idea what Obama believes. He promotes abortion, supports Planned Parenthood with tax dollars, and has favored infanticide. From what I have seen, our President has not found a way - yet - to increase the number of abortions currently in this country.

In the rather unique balance scale you seem to be using: belief that Christ is God vs belief in the scantity of life - you may want to follow Matt 25 - and see how it is actions rather then words that make the difference in the final analysis.

God bless

Most people here are so preoccupied with only one issue(abortion) on their mind as the ultimate deciding point to cast their vote that they have forgotten almost all other issues that as important and weigh equal concerns. Being a pro life, in my opinion, should not only support opposition to the legalization of abortion but also must oppose to war and capital punishment, support environmental care and protection, and it should extend to mean helping the poor, caring for the sick, and being there for people who need you.

Since almost everyone here are pious and religious, for me, I would ask everyone about the central core of their beliefs. There’s one thing that tops abortion as a greater evil because this one concerns the central figure, Jesus Christ. Within the bounds of Christian beliefs, which candidate denies the divinity of Jesus Christ? And to whom would Jesus direct this message to from Matthew 7:21 - 23. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

 

[tqualey]

Hi, LeafByNiggle,

I got the idea from what you wrote.

I also got the idea that you have no statistics to really back up what you said - here is my third request for ANY data that supports your stated position that abortions have decreased under Obama. Seriously, the honest position is to either retract the statement or supply the data - what you are doing profoundly fails.

And, here in one sentence is where your argument fails: " I would be happy voting against Obama if abortions went down even a tiny bit." None of us know the future and all we can honestly do is to believe the Demoncrat’s Platform that they want to increase abortions in the US vs the Republican’s Platform that they respect life. You claim you are not naive and that you know about the Democrates and their support for abortion - yet you are floundering on this thing about evidence that abortion will decrease.

Is it that you do not understand that abortion are legal in the US because of the US Supreme Court. The difference between Obama (voted for abortions -( and infanticide as a Senator) tax payer funded abortions, HHS mandate having everyone pay for abortions and his active support of the biggest abortion machine in the country) and Romney - who has no such track-record. Romney, however is not like Santorum being 100% pro life.

And, if you are interested in learning about the Catholic position on abortion - let me share this link with you, too: catholicanew.com/abortion-magisterium-main.htm. As I read your post, you seem to be claiming that voting for the most active supporter of abortions is acceptable. Nothing could be further from the truth. Abortion is evil. Those who support abortions are supporting evil. The sides are clear - all that remains is vote on Nov 6 - just 57 days away - and here is where we express our belief in the scantity of life by voting against those who promote death. Each of us will choose a side - whether we vote or not - and each of us will be held accountable by God.

Maybe you may find this link helpful. These are quotes from Blessed Mother Teresa: allgreatquotes.com/mother_teresa_quotes2.shtml No doubt about it, she was 100% pro life.

God bless

I have no idea how you got that out of anything I said.

I disagree. I think forced abortions are qualitatively different from allowing the mothers to choose abortions. There are both wrong, I’ll grant you. But in the case of forced abortions 100% of the blame lies with the agency that is doing the forcing. But in the case of allowing mothers to choose abortions, a sizable portion (I would argue the largest part) of the blame lies with the women who choose abortion. Regardless of the quantities involved, I would call that difference qualitative.

I did not know that. Thank you for enlightening me. Can you point me to some more reliable statistics that say the number of abortions during the Bush years was lower than those of the Obama years? If so I will gladly retract my conclusion.

Not at all. I would be happy voting against Obama if abortions went down even a tiny bit. I’m not asking for the impossible.

I’ve never heard Obama or any other contemporary major US politician call for forced abortions.

The only “position” I have posted is that the expected end result of a candidate being elected can matter more than what the candidate says he will do. I’m not aware of any Catholic doctrine that says otherwise. In any case I would think that the burden would be on those who think that position is contrary to Catholic doctrine to show how that is so.

I was only answering the question raised in post #650. I never attempted to make the connection with the abortion issue, so I can’t defend why it was brought up in the first place.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Yes, ending abortion is the primary focus of Catholic policy - this means it moves ahead of every other legitimate concern.

Your use of the term “Catholic policy” is very telling. It implies that there is an official Catholic policy - that is, an official Church doctrine on how to best address the problems of the world. In fact the Church does not prescribe specific solutions to problems. Instead she teaches moral doctrine that is supposed to inspire the laity to put into practice using their prudential judgement. For example we are taught that we have a duty to charity - to the Church and to the poor. But the Church does not specify exactly how much is required. Similarly the Church teaches that murder is a great evil. But it does not specify the punishment that must be inflicted by civil authority for these crimes. That is for the laity to decide. And on abortion, the Church teaches that this is an intrinsic evil, wrong in all circumstances. But it does not specify exactly how this evil is to be combatted. One can evangelize the women considering abortion. One can promote civil punishments for committing abortion. Which combination of these solutions should be taken is not specified. That is for the laity to decide.

If it were a mortal sin to vote for Obama under any and all circumstances then the Church would explicitly say so. The fact that they would lose their tax exempt status in the US would not stop them. The various Church martyrs were not afraid to lose their very lives to proclaim the truth. I believe our current Church leaders are no less inspired than those martyrs and would proclaim that truth if they were sure it was true. Instead I believe that they (rightly) see this kind of decision as one that the laity should make based on the general doctrines of the Church. Otherwise how do you interpret the USCCB’s Faithful Citizenship document?

 

[CatholcCrusader]

The evils promoted by the Democrat party are lightyears beyond any perceived or faux “evil” people might associate with Republicans.

Faux evil? I am not quite ready to see the Romney and Ryan canonized of the Republican Party equated with the angels. I think there are many who agree and do not see the Republicans as always being on the side of morality.

You can find immoral individuals in any group, including the Catholic Church.

But on general positions, the Republican Party is far more moral and ethical than the Democrat Party is. And I think Romney and Ryan are two upstanding, moral individuals.

As for Biden and Obama, well… …if I say what I want to say I might get banned. I’ll leave it to your imagination.

 

[CatholcCrusader]

I saw this quoted in someobody’s post:

I’ve never heard Obama or any other contemporary major US politician call for forced abortions

Who cares. Thats not the point. Abortion is murder, the taking of an innocent life. The Democrat Party bends over backwards to keep the taking of an innocent life legal and easily available.

Those are facts, not opinions.

But here is my opinion: The blood of the innocents drips from every hand that pulls the “Democrat” lever in a voting booth. Those innocents will be witnesses at the judgement of those who helped snuff out their lives, and that will be a bad day for them indeed.