Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

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Our elderly are at risk as well with the “death
panels” deciding when and if one gets “expensive” life prolonging procedures, or just
gets shuffeled over to hospice.
So are everyone else. We have already seen rationing and recommendations counter to the advice of the majority of physicians in areas such as the age to start getting mammograms and the frequency with which they are done. Its only the beginning.

Its not for nothing that every British person I know who has lived in the US for more than a couple of years tells me that our medical system is much better then their nationalized one. They also tell me that older people who need certain treatments have almost no chance of getting them, and even if they do it will not be in a timely manner, unless they know someone who can pull some strings for them in the government.
 
As regards the original question,

Mitt Romney is not evil. So it is a false dilemma. Barack Obama is the most pro-abortion politician ever elected into office. It is the wrong choice for a Catholic to make. Very wrong.
It is not for us to say whether Romney or Obama is evil.

But we can and must measure their actions.

I think the record is clear on Obama.

But for some reason Romney seems to be getting a pass. This is the same Romney who as Govenor ORDERED Catholic hospitals in Massachussetts to administer the Morning After Pill against their consciences and against the protections GAURANTEED by the Constitution. Romney didn’t even put up a fight in court. He aquiesced. He did what he was told. He caved under pressure, while in power, when it mattered. There is no reason to think he won’t do it again, if elected.

I don’t care if he calls himself a conservative or has an “R” next to his name or wraps himself in the flag. He’s not going to fool me. As a Catholic, I will not be voting for Romney, who not only forced Catholics to violate their consciences but who also signed Romneycare, which explicitly provided government funding for abortion.

I vote based on a candidate’s record, not their rhetoric. Based on records, I cannot vote for either of them. They both have records that suported an intrinsic evil.
 
*“but who also signed Romneycare, which explicitly provided government funding for abortion.”
*

The Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled in 1981 that the state must fund abortions for people on government health plans such as Medicaid.

masscases.com/cases/sjc/382/382mass629.html
 
*“but who also signed Romneycare, which explicitly provided government funding for abortion.”
*

The Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled in 1981 that the state must fund abortions for people on government health plans such as Medicaid.

masscases.com/cases/sjc/382/382mass629.html
The 1981 Massachusetts Supreme Court decision (that was re-affirmed in 1997) to which you refer was only a declaratory opinion. The court can only interpret the law in specific cases. They can’t make the law. Only the legislature can do that. Strangely, Romney was quite comfortable using his line item veto authority to strike down eight sections of the bill that he found objectionable, including the expansion of dental benefits to Medicaid recipients. But he did not strike Planned Parenthood’s guaranteed advisory board role and did nothing to prohibit tax payer funded abortions in his plan.
 
*“but who also signed Romneycare, which explicitly provided government funding for abortion.”
*

The Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled in 1981 that the state must fund abortions for people on government health plans such as Medicaid.

masscases.com/cases/sjc/382/382mass629.html
I think this observation from Amy Contrada (amycontrada.com/Romney_s_CPAC_Speech.html) is helpful:

"Romney’s excuse that Court rulings forced the inclusion of elective abortions in the Massachusetts health care plan is false, since those rulings referenced only ‘medically necessary abortions,’ and could have been challenged in any case.

These Court rulings on abortion coverage could have been challenged. But in any case, they were specific to “medically necessary abortions.” ProlifeProfiles (prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion) explains:

Romney today falsely claims that 1981 and 1997 Massachusetts supreme court rulings referencing so-called “medically necessary” abortions forced him to provide tax-funded “elective” abortions. In the 1981 case the court opinion stated that if abortion for the life of the mother was funded, then the government must also pay for “medically necessary” abortions. The 1997 opinion stated that if the government paid for childbirth, it must also pay for “medically necessary” abortions, evidently reasoning that if the government is going to pay to help kids, it must be fair and pay to kill them also. Romney’s commitment to government intervention in health care prevails even when that “health care” pays to kill them. Not only is Romney’s claim false that he had no choice, but adults, let alone leaders, are never “forced” in such ways. Romney should have vetoed, rather than praised and signed, any legislation that would pay abortionists to kill children. As he did also by implementing homosexual marriage, Romney created activist judges on steroids by taking anti-family court opinions and maximizing them, in this case, by interpreting “medically necessary” to mean all abortions. For more information, see Mitt Funds Abortion (prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion#mitt-funds-abortion)

RomneyCare wrote Planned Parenthood into the law as part of the permanent “advisory board” for the public health insurance system, which Romney did not object to. And what services would PP be likely to demand as benefits? Obviously, contraception, abortifacients, and abortions.

RomneyCare, subsidized by taxpayers, extended coverage to include any abortion, not just “medically necessary abortions…Romney could have vetoed the entire final version of RomneyCare, but instead he signed it. He played with a top-down government healthcare system and we, the citizens, lost."
 
I think this observation from Amy Contrada (amycontrada.com/Romney_s_CPAC_Speech.html) is helpful:

"Romney’s excuse that Court rulings forced the inclusion of elective abortions in the Massachusetts health care plan is false, since those rulings referenced only ‘medically necessary abortions,’ and could have been challenged in any case.

These Court rulings on abortion coverage could have been challenged. But in any case, they were specific to “medically necessary abortions.” ProlifeProfiles (prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion) explains:

Romney today falsely claims that 1981 and 1997 Massachusetts supreme court rulings referencing so-called “medically necessary” abortions forced him to provide tax-funded “elective” abortions. In the 1981 case the court opinion stated that if abortion for the life of the mother was funded, then the government must also pay for “medically necessary” abortions. The 1997 opinion stated that if the government paid for childbirth, it must also pay for “medically necessary” abortions, evidently reasoning that if the government is going to pay to help kids, it must be fair and pay to kill them also. Romney’s commitment to government intervention in health care prevails even when that “health care” pays to kill them. Not only is Romney’s claim false that he had no choice, but adults, let alone leaders, are never “forced” in such ways. Romney should have vetoed, rather than praised and signed, any legislation that would pay abortionists to kill children. As he did also by implementing homosexual marriage, Romney created activist judges on steroids by taking anti-family court opinions and maximizing them, in this case, by interpreting “medically necessary” to mean all abortions. For more information, see Mitt Funds Abortion (prolifeprofiles.com/mitt-romney-abortion#mitt-funds-abortion)

RomneyCare wrote Planned Parenthood into the law as part of the permanent “advisory board” for the public health insurance system, which Romney did not object to. And what services would PP be likely to demand as benefits? Obviously, contraception, abortifacients, and abortions.

RomneyCare, subsidized by taxpayers, extended coverage to include any abortion, not just “medically necessary abortions…Romney could have vetoed the entire final version of RomneyCare, but instead he signed it. He played with a top-down government healthcare system and we, the citizens, lost."
We see that argued both ways, and maybe Massachussetts lawyers can figure it out.

What we do know, though, is that Romney has said he will pursue a prolife course. Obama has said he will defend abortion on demand. Romney has said he won’t promote taxpayer funding of abortion. Obama does already. Romney has said he defends traditional marriage. Obama said it to get elected then “evolved his thinking” and homosexual marriage is now part of his party’s platform. But even before he did his 180 turn, he promoted it in every way.

Now, will Obama’s supporters and constituency continue to defend and support his abortion and homosexual marriage views? Of course they will. So Obama is free to continue issuing (possibly illegal) “decrees” promoting both.

Will Romney’s supporters and constituency drop him and turn against him if he promotes abortion and homosexual marriage? Yes, indeed.

So, who’s the more likely supporter of the intrinsic evils of abortion and homosexual marriage? I think the answer is obvious, no matter how one quibbles about the Massachussetts legal fights of the past.
 
The 1981 Massachusetts Supreme Court decision (that was re-affirmed in 1997) to which you refer was only a declaratory opinion. The court can only interpret the law in specific cases. They can’t make the law…
Except, of course, that the courts “make the law” all the time. Courts, not legislatures, made the law on abortion and homosexual marriage, mostly against the wills of the legislatures and the people.
 
We can try and make the 2 evils less evil…esp by contacting them BEFORE the election. I’ve done it and it works – contacted a Republican candidate for state senate before the election, and got him to become one of the best environmental senators in the state – truly pro-life on both abortion and serious environmental issues. (Contact sites for both prez candidates are below.)

As I posted on another CAF thread:
Let me put it this way, we are in process of aborting all life on planet earth thru tipping us into runaway warming and a host of other serious environmental problems, and we ALL have our hand on the abortion scalpel, some more than others. See esp p. 24 of columbia.edu/~jeh1/2008/AGUBjerknes_20081217.pdf

Will Obama be able to turn us around before we reach tipping points of no return and destroy life? Probably not, since we are so committed to our current path of destruction.

Will Romney/Ryan turn us around? Even less likely. They seem to be heads-in-the-sand opposed to even recognizing anthropogenic climate change is a reality, opposed to the science and the scientists. See lcv.org/media/blog/meet-paul-ryan.html & huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/11/climate-change-and-paul-ryan_n_1768171.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012

Of course, we are the ones to blame for this abortion of all life, and we need to reduce our contributions to such harms whether or not the government is with us, but our leaders do have responsibility to help us in this (otherwise what’s the purpose of having a government). Same with medical abortions – it is the abortion women who need to refrain from abortion whether it be legal or illegal, though government can play a role in reducing this grave evil.

I’m against abortion, and have been all my life, well before I became a Catholic, but I’m also against killing off all life on planet earth (including by spontaneous abortions caused by pollution & environmental hazards). Killing innocent people knowingly and willfully is an intrinsic evil. Some may try to tell me that knowingly and willfully killing some innocent people (including fetuses) is okay, while killing other innocent people (including fetuses) is wrong, but it doesn’t wash with me.

A good idea if one is seriously pro-life would be to contact both presidential teams and let them know we are against abortion AND against aborting life on earth thru climate change and other serious environmental problems.

I think if I could get an inkling that Romney/Ryan are amenable to mitigating climate change as well as making abortion illegal I and many others might be more willing to vote for them. So please help me in writing to them (and also Obama re his wrong stance on abortion & how he’s been fairly silent on climate change, as well). Here are their contact sites:

mittromney.com/forms/other
whitehouse.gov/contact/submit-questions-and-comments
 
A good idea if one is seriously pro-life would be to contact both presidential teams and let them know we are against abortion AND against aborting life on earth thru climate change and other serious environmental problems.
Climate change? Explain.
 
Oh please, no! Lynnevinc doesn’t need more encouragement to talk about globull warming!
If everyone were talking about global warming and actively mitigating it, then I’d be talking about how to end abortion.

Call me weird. I’m a big girl and I’ve been a nonconformist all my life, and have taken ridicule after ridicule.

I stand up for righteousness no matter what. (Okay, not now you’ll call me arrogant, and you’re probably right 😦 .)
 
If everyone were talking about global warming and actively mitigating it, then I’d be talking about how to end abortion.

Call me weird. I’m a big girl and I’ve been a nonconformist all my life, and have taken ridicule after ridicule.

I stand up for righteousness no matter what. (Okay, not now you’ll call me arrogant, and you’re probably right 😦 .)
Okay. How’s this? One of my favorite activities is forestry. Through professional foresters and publications, as well as old timber guys, I have learned what the most useful trees are in my region for a lot of different purposes. Some produce fruit or nuts upon which wildlife depend. Some produce furniture-quality wood. Some produce railroad ties or crate material. Some produce veneer-quality wood. Some hold the ground in place around washes and streams. Some provide filtered shade for pastures and leaves that break down quickly. Some produce leaves that resist breakdown, but build up deep soil over decades.

There are trees that are noxious. There are trees that will never grow well. There are trees that are diseased. Now, cutting them down and burning the extraneous branches will, indeed, produce CO2. Sure will. But if they’re reduced to charcoal that’s then plowed under or even lightly spread, they are soil-building, water-retaining, soil-enriching and produce ground cover that eats CO2,

But always, always there are the “adolescent” trees, the fast growers, that gobble up carbon like teenage boys eating nachos at a superbowl party.

But in doing it, I use a Bobcat with a tree shear. And it uses a lot of diesel fuel. But I can get more done in a half day than ten guys with chainsaws going all day. And because I clear room for the “fast growers” and also for their carefully selected successor “sprouts”, I create useful lumber and turn a lot of CO2 into stuff that will eventually be put in houses and their carbon will be locked in for decades or longer. Those benefits will last for generations.

So, on balance, should my diesel fuel cost double what it does now? Should it cost so much that nobody can afford to do forest improvement anymore? Should the factories that produce bobcats be shut down?

I also raise cattle on the side. Raising cattle uses very little energy of any kind. The grass eats CO2. That carbon goes into the bodies of the cattle. People eat the cattle and lock it within human beings. Those human beings are eventually buried in the ground, for the most part. (yes, I know, cows belch methane, but so would the wild animals that would inevitably replace them if we got rid of them)

So, on balance, should the little gasoline I use in my pickup (and it sure isn’t much) cost twice or more what it does now? Should it cost so much that I, and others like me, just don’t do it anymore?

I’ll just admit to you that MMGW is not persuasive to me. But let’s lay that aside for a moment. One of the problems I have with GW enthusiasts is that I am not persuaded they know all the uses of fuel that emits CO2. I’m not sure they know what captures it and impounds carbon. I am reasonably certain they don’t know that over this huge land there are a lot of people who are doing a lot of things that actually combine environmental friendliness and utility to mankind, both of which efforts can be thwarted by reducing supplies of energy and increasing their cost.

Now, I’m not looking for government “help” in doing any of that stuff, and receive none. There are thousands upon thousands of people who do things like this on almost a daily basis, though, who could use the help. The people who love the land most and know it best are those who live on it and work on it.

The current government wants (in Obama’s words) to make utility bills “skyrocket”, presumably to curtail emissions, and discourages fuel production. But do you know that the government pays farmers and ranchers exactly nothing to plant trees? It pays farmers to grow corn and to not grow corn. It pays them to raise tobacco, to plant cotton and to not plant cotton. Billions and billions of dollars go to those things. But to plant trees or to introduce charcoal to the soil? No.

So, would it not make more sense, perhaps, if one is going to write to Romney, to encourage, not making energy more expensive or rare, but doing things like planting trees for silvopasture, erosion resistance, charcoal soil building, etc, thinning, culling and clearing, and allow it to be done with reasonably-priced fuel? In the long run, I think we would all be better off for it.
 
As for the claim that Romney signed government mandated health care with taxpayer-funded abortions, that is false. The state health care law didn’t say anything about abortion. Instead, the state exchange later decided that subsidized insurance plans would include coverage for abortion. And the exchange may have had little choice but to do so. In 1981, the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruled that women eligible for Medicaid had a state constitutional right to payments for medically necessary abortions. In 1997, the state high court again ruled that Massachusetts must cover medically necessary abortions if it covers other medically necessary care, such as childbirth.

usatoday.com/news/politics/story/2012-01-11/fact-check-gingrich-romney-ad/52505818/1

As for Planned Parenthood, the law says Planned Parenthood in the state is allowed to appoint one person to a 14-member MassHealth Payment Policy Advisory Board, which reviews rates and payments for Medicaid. The committee doesn’t decide anything that has anything to do with abortion. It is just a rate-setting thing

allhealth.org/briefingmaterials/Section-by-SectionSummary-256.pdf

Massachusetts and most of the other states whose Medicaid programs cover abortion do so under a court order. A 1981 Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court decision said that if the state covers some reproductive health services under Medicaid, it has to cover all of them.

The Connector Authority, which is in charge of implementing the state’s health reform law, included abortion coverage in Commonwealth Care, (Not Romney) the subsidized insurance program for low-income people, to follow the same constitutional principle, officials said. Since a combination of state and federal money pays for the subsidies, the state says it calculates the approximate cost of abortion services and pays for that portion.

plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/local-press-releases/mass-keeps-eye-bills-abortion-funding-ban-30844.htm
 
Okay. How’s this? One of my favorite activities is forestry. Through professional foresters and publications, as well as old timber guys, I have learned what the most useful trees are in my region for a lot of different purposes. Some produce fruit or nuts upon which wildlife depend. Some produce furniture-quality wood. Some produce railroad ties or crate material. Some produce veneer-quality wood. Some hold the ground in place around washes and streams. Some provide filtered shade for pastures and leaves that break down quickly. Some produce leaves that resist breakdown, but build up deep soil over decades.

There are trees that are noxious. There are trees that will never grow well. There are trees that are diseased. Now, cutting them down and burning the extraneous branches will, indeed, produce CO2. Sure will. But if they’re reduced to charcoal that’s then plowed under or even lightly spread, they are soil-building, water-retaining, soil-enriching and produce ground cover that eats CO2,

But always, always there are the “adolescent” trees, the fast growers, that gobble up carbon like teenage boys eating nachos at a superbowl party.

But in doing it, I use a Bobcat with a tree shear. And it uses a lot of diesel fuel. But I can get more done in a half day than ten guys with chainsaws going all day. And because I clear room for the “fast growers” and also for their carefully selected successor “sprouts”, I create useful lumber and turn a lot of CO2 into stuff that will eventually be put in houses and their carbon will be locked in for decades or longer. Those benefits will last for generations.

So, on balance, should my diesel fuel cost double what it does now? Should it cost so much that nobody can afford to do forest improvement anymore? Should the factories that produce bobcats be shut down?

I also raise cattle on the side. Raising cattle uses very little energy of any kind. The grass eats CO2. That carbon goes into the bodies of the cattle. People eat the cattle and lock it within human beings. Those human beings are eventually buried in the ground, for the most part. (yes, I know, cows belch methane, but so would the wild animals that would inevitably replace them if we got rid of them)

So, on balance, should the little gasoline I use in my pickup (and it sure isn’t much) cost twice or more what it does now? Should it cost so much that I, and others like me, just don’t do it anymore?

I’ll just admit to you that MMGW is not persuasive to me. But let’s lay that aside for a moment. One of the problems I have with GW enthusiasts is that I am not persuaded they know all the uses of fuel that emits CO2. I’m not sure they know what captures it and impounds carbon. I am reasonably certain they don’t know that over this huge land there are a lot of people who are doing a lot of things that actually combine environmental friendliness and utility to mankind, both of which efforts can be thwarted by reducing supplies of energy and increasing their cost.

Now, I’m not looking for government “help” in doing any of that stuff, and receive none. There are thousands upon thousands of people who do things like this on almost a daily basis, though, who could use the help. The people who love the land most and know it best are those who live on it and work on it.

The current government wants (in Obama’s words) to make utility bills “skyrocket”, presumably to curtail emissions, and discourages fuel production. But do you know that the government pays farmers and ranchers exactly nothing to plant trees? It pays farmers to grow corn and to not grow corn. It pays them to raise tobacco, to plant cotton and to not plant cotton. Billions and billions of dollars go to those things. But to plant trees or to introduce charcoal to the soil? No.

So, would it not make more sense, perhaps, if one is going to write to Romney, to encourage, not making energy more expensive or rare, but doing things like planting trees for silvopasture, erosion resistance, charcoal soil building, etc, thinning, culling and clearing, and allow it to be done with reasonably-priced fuel? In the long run, I think we would all be better off for it.
Not sure what your point is. Climate scientists are not too concerned about oil, since it is running out. I also imagine the market price swings would be much greater than any reduction in subsidies.

It is coal and the unconventional forms of energy they are concerned about – tar sands and oil shale – which BTW have low energy (name removed by moderator)ut/output ratios and cause tremendous pollution to major aquifers and other freshwater sources that will last for 1000s of years, plus dangerous air pollution (I recommend seeing Gasland). Those sources could push us past tipping points of no return on runaway warming. In that scenario trees, cattle, and people will not fare well at all. It would be farewell.

Of course that will take some time – at first it will be a gradual shift to the new regime of an life-inhospitable world, then perhaps accerating later (maybe in 100 years or so). Nothing we have to be worried out during our lifetimes if we’re in our half of our lives; maybe just some ever slowly increasing intensity of heatwaves, droughts, floods, storms, wildfires, vector diseases, sea rise, crop loss, destruction of sealife in the ocean, and possibly more strongly negative arctic oscillations (bringing freezes north to south – but the science is not conclusive on this last one yet).

It’s the young children and their children who will pay the costs of our misguided follies and denialism.
 
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH:
DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, having received the opinion of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, has decided that it would be appropriate to publish the present Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding the participation of Catholics in political life. This Note is directed to the Bishops of the Catholic Church and, in a particular way, to Catholic politicians and all lay members of the faithful called to participate in the political life of democratic societies.
 
Also, the 1917 Code of Canon Law punished abortion with excommunication. The revised canonical legislation continues this tradition when it decrees that a person who actually procures an abortion incurs automatic (Latae sententiae) excommunication" (Canon 1398) " The excommunication affects all those who commit this crime with knowledge of the penalty attached and thus includes those accomplices without whose help the crime would not have been committed" (Canon 1329).

In the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s 1974 “Declaration on Procured Abortion” there is a discussion of “Morality and Law” (#19-23). “Man may never obey a law which is in itself, immoral and such is the case of a law which would admit in principle, the liceity of abortion. Nor can he take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law or vote for it. Moreover, he may not collaborate in its application. It is, for instance, inadmissible that doctors or nurses should find themselves obligated to cooperate closely in abortions and have to choose between the law of God and their professional situation.” (22)

Pope John Paul II in “Evangelium Vitae” states “I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. … No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself and proclaimed by the Church” (EV 62C).
Then someone needs to send this post to Vice President Biden
 
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