Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

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Not sure what your point is. Climate scientists are not too concerned about oil, since it is running out. I also imagine the market price swings would be much greater than any reduction in subsidies.

It is coal and the unconventional forms of energy they are concerned about – tar sands and oil shale – which BTW have low energy (name removed by moderator)ut/output ratios and cause tremendous pollution to major aquifers and other freshwater sources that will last for 1000s of years, plus dangerous air pollution (I recommend seeing Gasland). Those sources could push us past tipping points of no return on runaway warming. In that scenario trees, cattle, and people will not fare well at all. It would be farewell.

Of course that will take some time – at first it will be a gradual shift to the new regime of an life-inhospitable world, then perhaps accerating later (maybe in 100 years or so). Nothing we have to be worried out during our lifetimes if we’re in our half of our lives; maybe just some ever slowly increasing intensity of heatwaves, droughts, floods, storms, wildfires, vector diseases, sea rise, crop loss, destruction of sealife in the ocean, and possibly more strongly negative arctic oscillations (bringing freezes north to south – but the science is not conclusive on this last one yet).

It’s the young children and their children who will pay the costs of our misguided follies and denialism.
There is no scientific consensus on man-made climate change. Climate change propagandists have been caught again and again using fake data or deceptive methodology. Even the UN’s IPCC, which is often erroneously cited as an independent scientific body by climate change propagandists, was caught citing fake data to make the case that global warming is accelerating (propagandamatrix.com/articles/november2008/111708_ipcc_caught.htm).

Gasland is propaganda for the big lie. Liberals don’t really care about pollution. The oil, mining, timber, and agribusiness companies control Obama’s EPA and the Forestry Service, which is why regulation only pertains to the small individual, while fracking, mountaintop removal mining, and pollution of air, water, and soil run wild.

There are technologies that would allow the clean extraction and use of fossil fuels. They need funding. Unfortunately, the government has wasted money on the warfare and welfare state, as well as on corrupt agencies like the EPA. And they don’t care about the earth’s most valuable human resource (unborn human life) so why would they care about stewardship for the environment? Political incompetence and criminality, foolish ideas, insane ideologies, and bad science are the causes of “environmental problems”. Malthus proved as wrong about food prodution as Ehrlich did about the world’s resources, which he assured us were running out. The same can be said for the global warming scam.
 
Hi, Prodigal Son1,

Interesting position. Now, does this mean you will not vote because the various candidates are all ‘liars’?

I am reminded of a quote, attributed to Edmund Burke: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”.

God bless
The ‘lesser of two evils’ argument makes me think of, ‘my liar is more honest than your liar.’ It’s a grey area I won’t cross, myself; for either candidate.
 
There is no scientific consensus on man-made climate change. Climate change propagandists have been caught again and again using fake data or deceptive methodology. Even the UN’s IPCC, which is often erroneously cited as an independent scientific body by climate change propagandists, was caught citing fake data to make the case that global warming is accelerating (propagandamatrix.com/articles/november2008/111708_ipcc_caught.htm).
The IPCC is the gold standard of climate science – it is “run” by 100s of top scientists around the world in their free time and for free. I know some of them. They are honest, hard-working people doing the best they can.

I know about the 3 mistakes (out of many 1000s of pages) in the WGII impact chapters,
which were discovered by the scientists in WGI (the science). In fact I found the glacier one in WGII Chapt. 10 Asia on p. 493 soon after the report was out while working on an article about food rights and climate change, and suspected it was a mistake before a glaciologist finally found it (bec I knew enough about the science), and did NOT include that in my paper – so NO HARM DONE.

The real story to come out of “glaciergate” is that NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE HARMS TO ASIANS FROM CC to have bothered to have read about them over the 18 months it took to discover the error. That is the real story – not that the glaciers will all be melted in a few hundred years instead of by the mistake date of 2035, driving 40% of India & China into extreme famine if we fail to mitigate.

However, I’ve found in general the IPCC reports to underestimate the problem due to scientific reticence or conservativism. Scientists strive to avoid the FALSE POSITIVE of making untrue claims – they can’t afford to risk their reputations by being the boy who called wolf. (And we saw what happened to that hapless Indian scientist who worked on Chap. 10, a non-glaciologist, who made that 2035 mistake; he got tarred, feathered, and pilloried.)

We laypersons OTOH you’d think would be interested in avoiding the FALSE NEGATIVE of failing to address a true and dangerous problem (assuming we love our children); we cannot afford to be the villagers who got eaten by the wolf. So I’m always honed in on the high end predictions, and busy mitigating climate change to the best of my ability (which BTW has saved us $1000s over the past 22 years). If it turns out to be false (or we mitigate it so well, we destroy the evidence of it 🙂 ), then I’m ahead, laughing all the way to the bank, while many of those who failed to mitigate are left holding a bag of debts.

I think it is wrong to slander honest, hard-working scientists, just because we don’t like their message. No one likes it. I don’t like. But instead of putting our heads in the tar sands, we should be rolling up our sleeves and doing God’s will in striving to reduce harm to his creation (including to us). I propose the Little Way of Environmental Healing – re doing the little things in daily life (and big things when feasible) and offering it up to God.
Gasland is propaganda for the big lie.
Well, all I have to say is please see the documentary and tell me with a straight face that all those regular folks Josh Fox interviewed were lying thru their teeth, and that perhaps he was making it up ? just to extort more money for fracking on his land (that’s how he started getting into the topic…when they offered him $100,000 to frack on his land). You have to see the whole thing to really get the best picture, but here are a few excerpts:

youtube.com/watch?v=j2Nc-kxWfmc
Liberals don’t really care about pollution.
I’ve always been an environmentalist, even in the 20 years I was a Republican. I wish people would get off the conservative/liberal red/blue frame and go for a little green. Many of my environmental buddies have been Catholic & Republican. And JPII & BXVI (arguably 2 liberals) have expressed genuine concern about enviornmental issues, including CC.

I care about life, and since life depends on a healthy environment – the environment being the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat, the chemicals that permeate our skin, and the resources with which be build our homes and products (and not just the polar bears and rainforests as some think (i.e. wild/useless species in wild/useless places) – I do care much about the environment. God gave it to us not to be a wasteland, but to be lived in (Is 45:18).

Perhaps instead of standing on the sidelines criticizing the particular types of environmentalists we hate the most, we should be actively involved in living a type of environmentalism that is within Church teachings. Then we good people would dominate the movement, not the reprehensible people.
There are technologies that would allow the clean extraction and use of fossil fuels.
Agreed, but the 2005 Energy Policy Act excluded underground injection of fracking fluids (which contain among the 530 ingredients, benzene, toluene, naphthalene, formalehyde, and glycol ethers (which eat thru reverse osmosis filter membranes, rendering them useless)) from the regulations of the Safe Drinking Water Act, Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, and so on. It is a wild free for all. There are perhaps safer technologies, but will they be used when money trumps lives and there’s no penalty for grossly harming people (and their farms) by polluting their water & air bec that’s the cheaper thing to do? I think not.

There are admittedly 2 evils from which we have to choose when we vote, and we’re expected to vote for the lesser of them (that’s a no-brainer). But we can also strive to put up candidates who are not evil in some areas, but good in all areas. There have been some politicians like that, but they tend to be run out of office.

The option I was championing in this thread was striving to make the candidates we do have not so evil – getting Romney/Ryan to come round on environmental issues that threaten life, and getting Obama to come round on abortion and environmental issues (bec he’s not so good on the environment either).
 
Something to consider for those who think that electing a Republican who is pro-life instead of a Democrat who is pro-abortion does not make a difference in stemming the tide of infanticide in America.

knoxnews.com/news/2012/aug/18/abortion-clinic-director-blames-new-law-for/

Things like this are happening in many places. Just because a president hasn’t been able to overturn Roe v Wade does not mean that good things cannot be done. Things like the story I posted above are happening in several states. Mississippi for one, and there are also others.

If things can be done from a regulatory fashion to strip away the ability of these clinics to provide abortions, just think of how many lives can be saved. I know it is frustrating that more has not been accomplished. But please consider this when you are voting. Making strides in the right direction is FAR FAR better than going the other way or staying in the same place. Even if the strides are not as large as we would prefer, they are still important and every singled child that gets to live makes it worth the effort.

Peace of Christ,
 
Then someone needs to send this post to Vice President Biden
I think someone needs to send that post to more than him. I just got this email from National Pro-Life Alliance. The heart of it:
"This summer, if they get their way, the pro-abortion activists hope to remove the only pro-life language in either of the major party’s platforms.
Since 1976 the Republican Party’s platform has contained strong support for our Life at Conception Act and other pro-life measures.
The Democrat platform, of course, states their unequivocal support for abortion-on-demand.
The two positions are as different as night and day.
Nevertheless, the so-called “Republicans for Choice” and other pro-abortion activists are fighting to remove from the platform this fundamental support for the sanctity of life which separates the two parties.
In fact, they already have organizers in the field, recruiting people to go to the Republican National Convention in order to strip the pro-life plank from the platform.
That is why it is so important that you sign the petitions letting Mitt Romney and the platform committee know that removing or weakening the pro-life plank from the platform is unacceptable to pro-life voters.
 
I don’t know about the rest of the country, but currently on the local Boston and New Hampshire stations, Obama is running attack ads on Romney, and the ads are
promoting abortion, not merely promoting pro-choice.

The Church clearly says we can not vote for a candidate who “promotes,” abortion, so I have no doubt about not voting for Obama.

It’s strange that Obama took this path in his campaign, where in the last campaign, he merely said he did not believe in forcing his beliefs on others and was open to both the pro-life arguments as he was to the pro-choice arguments. Now he’s totally into the pro-abortion argument as evident in his ads.

What moved him further away from the truth?

Why didn’t the pro-life movement work to bring him to the truth, instead of pushing him away with nasty rhetoric?

Jim
 
I don’t know about the rest of the country, but currently on the local Boston and New Hampshire stations, Obama is running attack ads on Romney, and the ads are
promoting abortion, not merely promoting pro-choice.

The Church clearly says we can not vote for a candidate who “promotes,” abortion, so I have no doubt about not voting for Obama.

It’s strange that Obama took this path in his campaign, where in the last campaign, he merely said he did not believe in forcing his beliefs on others and was open to both the pro-life arguments as he was to the pro-choice arguments. Now he’s totally into the pro-abortion argument as evident in his ads.

What moved him further away from the truth?

Why didn’t the pro-life movement work to bring him to the truth, instead of pushing him away with nasty rhetoric?

Jim
I’m with you on this, Jim. I was always hoping the Democrats would instead point out how pro-life they were in so many ways – by striving to raise the minimum wage (2/3 of min-wagers are women) and helping people get health insurance, which may make a woman less likely to have an abortion (so she could really have an option to keep the child, etc). I know that would make the pro-abortion camp mad, but Dems could have thought about taking a more moral high ground, even if it mean loss of votes, at the least saying, “We want to help women have and care for their children, unlike those rotten Republicans who would force women into illegal abortions in back alleys.”

But promoting abortion is really really bad. When women are caught between a rock and a hard place re a pregnancy and child they may not be able to afford, etc (or whatever reason women may have for abortions), then any promotion of abortion would tilt the scales for that woman to have the abortion.

The only claim the Dems have ever had that held a drop of water on the issue was that abortions needed to be kept legal and safe so as to avoid forcing women into back alley illegal abortions that would not only kill the child but the woman as well.

That drop has now evaporated.
 
Hi, ProVobis,

So, sitting on the sidelines (not voting?) is a morally defensible position because you think someone else should have been the Republican nominee? My personal opinion of such a position on the civic level is that it fails to rise to the level of mature citizenship. On the ethical level it sincerely looks like cooperation with evil - here’s a link: ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82:principles-of-formal-and-material-cooperation&Itemid=171

This is not a ‘you-gott’a-vote-for-___’ statment. Rather, based on the moral degeration and murderous policies of our current president, voting for him can not be considered a moral choice - so find someone who you can vote for and then go out there and vote.

Seriously, there is no virtue in claiming or hinting at moral superiority by allowing evil to get a continued foot-hold in our country. Failing to vote your conscience is something that we all will have to answer for… and no rightly formed conscience can claim that not voting is appropriate. Prayerfully think it over - you (and the rest of the nation) have 79 days until Nov 6 to do the right thing.

God bless
My personal opinion is this, for what it’s worth.

Had this principle been followed all along in the primaries, Romney would probably not have ended up the Republican nominee in the first place. Where was the outcry when people were voting for etch-a-sketch pro-life/pro-choice (depending on the office he’s running for) Romney when polls showed Ron Paul or Rick Santorum had almost the same or better chance to beat Obama in many key states?

It looks like I’ll be sitting on the sidelines again this next election.
 
I don’t know about the rest of the country, but currently on the local Boston and New Hampshire stations, Obama is running attack ads on Romney, and the ads are
promoting abortion, not merely promoting pro-choice.

The Church clearly says we can not vote for a candidate who “promotes,” abortion, so I have no doubt about not voting for Obama.

It’s strange that Obama took this path in his campaign, where in the last campaign, he merely said he did not believe in forcing his beliefs on others and was open to both the pro-life arguments as he was to the pro-choice arguments. Now he’s totally into the pro-abortion argument as evident in his ads.

What moved him further away from the truth?

**Why didn’t the pro-life movement work to bring him to the truth, instead of pushing him away with nasty rhetoric?
**

Jim
It’s the pro-life movement’s fault? Unreal.

My thoughts are that he lied to get into office and/or realized that there were plenty of nominal Christians/Catholics like himself who really don’t care about abortion or don’t get the fact that abortion takes an innocent human life.

…I can’t believe you are blaming the pro-life movement for a pro-choice, pro-“gay marriage” president who wants to force Catholic institutions to fund birth control and abortion. :mad:
 
Hang on a minute, there, JimR,

Obama was not only pro-abortion when he was a US Senator - he was pro-infantacide. The overall idea is that his mind was made up before he became President - what wasn’t in place at the time was ObamaCare - with that now having passed the Supremes - he has no reason to hide his true motivation.

The Pro-Life Movement has done nothing but simply expose Obama for the person he really is - and trying to figure out why he did nor did not do something as though it was somehow in the control of Pro-Life is simply mistaken.

Voting for Obama or intentionally failing to vote at all is cooperating with evil. If you don’t like Romney - fine - find someone running against Obama and vote for them. One may claim that they did not really know about Obama when he first ran for office - but, such a claim can no longer be made. Protectin innocent life is the first responsibility we have - and that means that everything else is secondary. Stick to the priority.

God bless
I don’t know about the rest of the country, but currently on the local Boston and New Hampshire stations, Obama is running attack ads on Romney, and the ads are
promoting abortion, not merely promoting pro-choice.

The Church clearly says we can not vote for a candidate who “promotes,” abortion, so I have no doubt about not voting for Obama.

It’s strange that Obama took this path in his campaign, where in the last campaign, he merely said he did not believe in forcing his beliefs on others and was open to both the pro-life arguments as he was to the pro-choice arguments. Now he’s totally into the pro-abortion argument as evident in his ads.

What moved him further away from the truth?

Why didn’t the pro-life movement work to bring him to the truth, instead of pushing him away with nasty rhetoric?

Jim
 
Romney is the only reasonable choice between the two candidates. I will do everything I can to defeat Obama. His policies are anti-Catholic in too many respects.
 
Why didn’t the pro-life movement work to bring him to the truth, instead of pushing him away with nasty rhetoric?
Good point.

With only 20% actually wanting to ban all abortions, it would take more than one party to change the general sentiments of the population.
 
So, sitting on the sidelines (not voting?) is a morally defensible position because you think someone else should have been the Republican nominee? My personal opinion of such a position on the civic level is that it fails to rise to the level of mature citizenship. On the ethical level it sincerely looks like cooperation with evil - here’s a link: ascensionhealth.org/index.php?

I may reconsider my position of not voting. I’ll vote for myself if I have to but I try to follow the moral code expressed in Cicero’s De Officiis (On Duties) especially in Primum minima de malis (“Of evils choose the least”.)
 
Hang on a minute, there, JimR,

Obama was not only pro-abortion when he was a US Senator - he was pro-infantacide.

God bless
This is false and even Jill Stanek, admitted that she spun the story of when Obama was senator in Ill, and voted against the Born Alive Act the state had tried to pass. The wording was different than the federal version, and Stanek admitted this. The Ill, would’ve made obstetrician’s fighting against erroneous accusations of murder, when an infant who was still born, was thought to be alive by the distraught mother. All the medical groups in the state opposed the bill, and there was a law on the books that mandated that a physician who delivered an infant who was in distress, to do everything medically possible to care for the child and try to save it.

Jim
 
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