Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[pnewton]

When people raise questions about Romney or the GOP, in general there are one of two responses from Republican supporters:

1. Attack the person raising the questions.
2. Attack Obama.

I have seldom seen a post proven true so fast.

I have yet to understand why Catholics here see the need to go beyond what the Church teaches on this. We are responsible for our own prudence, but a magisterum to no one. Rather, in areas where differences exist, we should interact in charity.

For my own purpose, when someone fails to exercise the virtue of charity, I consider that a factor in weighing their rational argument, caritas in veritate, and all that. There is an integral relationship between charity and truth.

We must do all we can to change the laws of the land, but in the end, abortion will be stopped by changing hearts. We have reduced human dignity to its utilitarian function in our society. This is why abortion is permitted. You might say that Obama is head of the abortion monster in America, but Ayn Rand is the heart.

 

[JimG]

For me and I suspect many others, the name Ayn Rand never even came into my purview until recently, when her largely forgotten works seem to have been resurrected. But abortion politics has been in my purview for several decades now.

I’ve been a Democrat my entire life, but it began to become apparent to me sometime after 1973 that my party was transforming itself into the party of abortion—the party in which support for abortion rights was the overriding goal, and a litmus test for national office. The party seems to have been taken over lock, stock, and barrel, by Planned Parenthood, the legitimizer of the sexual revolution, and the largest abortion provider in the nation.

I might have hoped, early on, that this was a mere side issue, a misstep, a tendency which might be corrected by internal party politics. But it was not to be so. Democratic Party platforms became increasingly and more stridently pro-abortion with each passing election cycle. The first day of the DNC convention this year was practically a paean to abortion rights.

The pro-life movement didn’t ally itself with the Republican Party. It was abandoned and rejected by the Democratic Party. For my own part, I seldom go out of my way to support GOP candidates so much as I oppose pro-abortion candidates. And the pro-abortion candidate par excellence is Obama. It seems only right to point out that fact to Catholics, who have a moral obligation not to cooperate in moral evil.

And yes, I realize that the GOP in general, and Romney in particular, are not perfect on life issues. But Obama is so blatantly worse in his stated positions that one would have to go some to find a candidate who is worse on life issues.

(Not even mentioning religious liberty.)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dan Daly,

OK, so by stating your opinion that neither Obama or Romney is worth voting for and have announced that you are therefore not going to vote - you have demonstrated exactly what about ''engaging i public life"? And, I’m serious as a heart attack. Of course, there are other things one can do to engage - just none of these other things will be counted on election day. Like it or not - one of the guys who you would not write a letter of reference for is probably going to win - yet you are more then willing to proclaim that this is so unimportant that it is not worth the effort to decide which of these evils represents the lesser - and then make your vote count.

All analogies limp - but, I am afraid the one about the dog catcher is hopelessly lame and probably should be put out of its misery. But, don’t feel bad, there probably isn’t a really appropriate analogy for ennobling not doing something albeit distasteful. In addition to a seriously flawed analogy - your comparrison between Obama and Romney is quite in error if for nothing else then degrees of magnitude - Obama has not only funded abortion throughout the US but as part of US foreign policy. This is something that not only Romney has not done but probably will not. Additionally, both men have Catholics as their VPs - the differece here is that Romney has a praciticing Catholic who has a proven track record as pro-life, Obama has just the opposite. So, if you are looking for both a difference and a distinction-- there it is.

Ah, but my disappointment does not end there … as I see it, promoting the ‘non voting position’ as somehow nobel and able to lead us out this political quagmire we are currently in -is really questionable to me as to giving good example to others on this thread. But, that is something you must address.

Finally, you may dismiss this as a pro-Republican pro-Romney position - but, that would not be accurate. I encourage everyone to go out - yes, that may mean geting off your hands - and vote your consicience. If both major candidates are so bad - then find one who is better and vote for them. As I see it - by voting for someone you are making your vote count - as opposed to providing an opinion that will not be counted at all. This is not a personal attack - it is a response that somehow - not voting is somehow acceptable. That doing nothing to stop the evil that is confronting us is a civic act. Don’t kid yourself. The Presidential election is 44 days away - we have a chance to stop the promotion of evil - and I really do believe that we have a positive obligation to do whatever it is we can. And, we can all vote our conscience,

God bless

Greetings,

I would say that not voting is not the same thing as “sitting on one’s hands” or doing nothing. We have a duty to be engaged in public life. Casting a ballot is not the only means of being engaged.

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t think someone will be sworn in as President, and barring any extermely strange turn of events, that person will either be President Obama or Mr. Romney. So?

Say your business was hiring a new manager and had narrowed the field of canidates down to two applicants.

Applicant A has a long history of deception and support of intrinsic evil.

Applicant B has a long history of deception and support of intrinsic evil.

Would you write a letter or recommendation for either applicant? I wouldn’t. Even if I know that my boss is going to hire one or the other regardless of what I do, I don’t see how I can dishonor myself by endorsing someone I know to be unfit for the job.

If I wouldn’t write either President Obama or Mr. Romney a letter or recommendation to be the town dog catcher, I don’t see how I can endorse their bid for President with my vote.

I will not however be doing nothing. I’m working to educate others in conversations just like this both online and in real life. I’m also praying for the conversion of both men.

Pax Christi

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JimG,

This was really a great post!

You have a conscience and you are doing what good you can do - and, I think this is what really counts - both here and hereafter.

God bless

For me and I suspect many others, the name Ayn Rand never even came into my purview until recently, when her largely forgotten works seem to have been resurrected. But abortion politics has been in my purview for several decades now.

I’ve been a Democrat my entire life, but it began to become apparent to me sometime after 1973 that my party was transforming itself into the party of abortion—the party in which support for abortion rights was the overriding goal, and a litmus test for national office. The party seems to have been taken over lock, stock, and barrel, by Planned Parenthood, the legitimizer of the sexual revolution, and the largest abortion provider in the nation.

I might have hoped, early on, that this was a mere side issue, a misstep, a tendency which might be corrected by internal party politics. But it was not to be so. Democratic Party platforms became increasingly and more stridently pro-abortion with each passing election cycle. The first day of the DNC convention this year was practically a paean to abortion rights.

The pro-life movement didn’t ally itself with the Republican Party. It was abandoned and rejected by the Democratic Party. For my own part, I seldom go out of my way to support GOP candidates so much as I oppose pro-abortion candidates. And the pro-abortion candidate par excellence is Obama. It seems only right to point out that fact to Catholics, who have a moral obligation not to cooperate in moral evil.

And yes, I realize that the GOP in general, and Romney in particular, are not perfect on life issues. But Obama is so blatantly worse in his stated positions that one would have to go some to find a candidate who is worse on life issues.

(Not even mentioning religious liberty.)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pnewton,

I really wish you would explain and then reference where the Church says it is OK to allow evil to continue when there is a chance to defeat it.

Seriously.

I realize that you are saying that not voting is acceptable. But, I have yet to see where this is actual Churh teaching. The real issue is deciding between the lesser of two evils that are presented to you for an actual choice. In this election - there are more then two candidates and to not vote is simply not exercising civic responsibility and trying to do good for our fellow citizens. Yes, there have been some bishops who have said they they will nto give a public opinion on who to not vote for - just who they are not voting for. All I can say is that for those who have been given much, then much will be expected. Additonally, given the repeated public positions that Obama has taken, I just do not see how someone can claim not voting - thereby allowing him another 4-year term is morally acceptable - when one is to vote their conscience.

God bless

I have seldom seen a post proven true so fast.

I have yet to understand why Catholics here see the need to go beyond what the Church teaches on this. We are responsible for our own prudence, but a magisterum to no one. Rather, in areas where differences exist, we should interact in charity.

For my own purpose, when someone fails to exercise the virtue of charity, I consider that a factor in weighing their rational argument, caritas in veritate, and all that. There is an integral relationship between charity and truth.

We must do all we can to change the laws of the land, but in the end, abortion will be stopped by changing hearts. We have reduced human dignity to its utilitarian function in our society. This is why abortion is permitted. You might say that Obama is head of the abortion monster in America, but Ayn Rand is the heart.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Jwinch2,

I am not sure about an endorsement for something other then voting one’s conscience - and if everyone were to do this - even though we disagree on particular candidates - everyone can make their own contribution to political decency. There is not such contribution from those who chose to squander this incredible opportunity.

God bless

But what about your endorsement? Are you telling me that your opinion carries absolutely no weight at all in NoVA?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Tampa Dave,

While I am not exactly sure about the relationship of yard signs to votes … I’m encouraged!

Continue to do good and avoid evil.

God bless

I can only vote for Romney, not guarantee a victory. I mentioned earlier that my wife counted 16 Romney yard signs versus 3 Obama signs during a neighborhood walk. At least we have enthusiasm in some parts of Northern Virginia!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, JimG,

I think these are the facts that need to be made public. I do not know of any political orgaization that has couseled for voters to stay on election day and watch the votes of others be counted. Doing nothing, i.e,. nothing that will be counted as a vote when the votes are counted - is hardly something that one would read about in the lives of the saints. Something like, “Saint ___ was known for not voting when things were not perfect - and encouraging others to do the same”… is something you will not read about anywhere. However, you can read about St. Max Kolbe - he voted with his life: catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=34577

God bless

In addition to the National Right to Life Committee, Romney also has the endorsement of the following organizations:

CatholicVote.org
The Missouri Right to Life Federal Political Action Committee
Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life
National Organization for Marriage
Oregon Right to Life
Susan B. Anthony List

Are these organizations all misguided on life issues?
And how many endorsements from pro-life organizations has Obama picked up?

 

[pnewton]

Hi, Pnewton,

I really wish you would explain and then reference where the Church says it is OK to allow evil to continue when there is a chance to defeat it.

As I have never said this or though this, I can not explain it. I do not think anyone has ever said this here.

I realize that you are saying that not voting is acceptable.

Actually, I have never said this either, but I do not remember seeing where the Church has ever condemned it. I would look into this later. Until then, if the Church has not called this a sin, I think it best to respect the wishes of those who see this as a moral option.

I have declined from voiting in the past, where I had no information or there was only a single candidate, but I seldom do this. I was unaware that it was sinful.

 

[ManOnFire]

For my own purpose, when someone fails to exercise the virtue of charity, I consider that a factor in weighing their rational argument, caritas in veritate, and all that. There is an integral relationship between charity and truth.

We must do all we can to change the laws of the land, but in the end, abortion will be stopped by changing hearts. We have reduced human dignity to its utilitarian function in our society. This is why abortion is permitted. You might say that Obama is head of the abortion monster in America, but Ayn Rand is the heart.

The truth is that the far left promotes early sex and selfish hedonism. You’ll have more women considering abortions as more people have early sex, and as the number of men who run away from marriage and responsible parenthood continues to rise due to their desire for selfish hedonism. It’s easy to feel sorry for abandoned women and children after the damage has been done. Look at the root cause.

 

[pnewton]

The truth is that the far left promotes early sex and selfish hedonism.

That is something that I see promoted across the board, right, left and middle. Using others for money, sex or power, is all equally de-humanizing.

 

[ManOnFire]

That is something that I see promoted across the board, right, left and middle. Using others for money, sex or power, is all equally de-humanizing.

Bull! Conservatives are at least trying to minimize it and delay it until people are older and more mature! You’re rationalizing our own destruction! What’s wrong with people when people start caring more about money than they care about morality? See? They’ve already changed the rules and you didn’t even notice! You’re standing up for the bad guys because they trained you to be a good soldier who will care about charity but who will not ask for more morality. The media doesn’t need to profit from it if it is harmful! The funny thing is, the media tells everyone that they are the good guys! Then, innocent taxpayers are forced to pay for the fallout, as the dependency grows.

 

[pnewton]

Bull! Conservatives are at least trying to minimize it and delay it until people are older and more mature!

I have told you what I have seen. Do you know what bull really is? It is thinking you know more about me than I know about myself. It was no Democrat VP candidate that pushed Ayn Rand on his employees. I do not need to rehash Republicans that have been involved in sex scandals in my experience. The idea that this is a liberal issue is simply something I do not believe.

That is just sex, which is not the only mortal sin, or the only contributer to our current lack of morals. Remember that it is the love of money that is the root of all evil. Sexual sin is not a “liberal” problem. Greed is not a Republican problem.

The thing is, the person who is seeking to follow God will look first to those sins which most attract them and not spend the time throwing stones at others for sins in which they are not so emeshed.

 

[ManOnFire]

I have told you what I have seen. Do you know what bull really is? It is thinking you know more about me than I know about myself. It was no Democrat VP candidate that pushed Ayn Rand on his employees. I do not need to rehash Republicans that have been involved in sex scandals in my experience. The idea that this is a liberal issue is simply something I do not believe.

That is just sex, which is not the only mortal sin, or the only contributer to our current lack of morals. Remember that it is the love of money that is the root of all evil. Sexual sin is not a “liberal” problem. Greed is not a Republican problem.

The thing is, the person who is seeking to follow God will look first to those sins which most attract them and not spend the time throwing stones at others for sins in which they are not so emeshed.

I agree that money is the root of all evil if people are on the edge of starvation, like they did 2000 years ago, but we don’t have that problem here in the US due to all the safety nets.

I suggest you watch “The Tudors” on netflix. It was about all the liberal corruption in our Church and all the liberal corruption that brought down King Henry the 8th. History is just repeating itself. Now, if God does not exist, then I agree that it’s no problem. In that case, we should all be liberal hedonists who consume and consume and consume (which is where the far left is taking us) until there’s nothing left. It’s a great way to destroy a nation that cannot be defeated militarily.

This election is more about God vs godlessness than it is about the candidates. It’s too bad that many people have been fooled into believing it is about money. The far left is trying to make it about class warfare for very good reason.

 

[Dan_Daly]

It seems that at least the National Right to Life Committee does not find the two candidates to be equivalent on life issues. The NRLC has endorsed Romney.

nrlc.org/press_releases_new/Release041212.html

Very sadly, NRLC is essentially a GOP auxillary which receives extensive funding from the RNC. Their voter guides and endorsements are not the assesment of an impartial watchdog, although they may pretend to be. In reality they are basically paid advertisements.

 

[JimG]

Very sadly, NRLC is essentially a GOP auxillary which receives extensive funding from the RNC. Their voter guides and endorsements are not the assesment of an impartial watchdog, although they may pretend to be. In reality they are basically paid advertisements.

Perhaps the National Right to Life Committee would have endorsed Obama if it had received funding from the DNC? I would like to see the contortions they would have to go through for that!

 

[Dan_Daly]

Hi, Dan Daly,

OK, so by stating your opinion that neither Obama or Romney is worth voting for and have announced that you are therefore not going to vote - you have demonstrated exactly what about ''engaging i public life"? And, I’m serious as a heart attack. Of course, there are other things one can do to engage - just none of these other things will be counted on election day. Like it or not - one of the guys who you would not write a letter of reference for is probably going to win - yet you are more then willing to proclaim that this is so unimportant that it is not worth the effort to decide which of these evils represents the lesser - and then make your vote count.

All analogies limp - but, I am afraid the one about the dog catcher is hopelessly lame and probably should be put out of its misery. But, don’t feel bad, there probably isn’t a really appropriate analogy for ennobling not doing something albeit distasteful. In addition to a seriously flawed analogy - your comparrison between Obama and Romney is quite in error if for nothing else then degrees of magnitude - Obama has not only funded abortion throughout the US but as part of US foreign policy. This is something that not only Romney has not done but probably will not. Additionally, both men have Catholics as their VPs - the differece here is that Romney has a praciticing Catholic who has a proven track record as pro-life, Obama has just the opposite. So, if you are looking for both a difference and a distinction-- there it is.

Ah, but my disappointment does not end there … as I see it, promoting the ‘non voting position’ as somehow nobel and able to lead us out this political quagmire we are currently in -is really questionable to me as to giving good example to others on this thread. But, that is something you must address.

Finally, you may dismiss this as a pro-Republican pro-Romney position - but, that would not be accurate. I encourage everyone to go out - yes, that may mean geting off your hands - and vote your consicience. If both major candidates are so bad - then find one who is better and vote for them. As I see it - by voting for someone you are making your vote count - as opposed to providing an opinion that will not be counted at all. This is not a personal attack - it is a response that somehow - not voting is somehow acceptable. That doing nothing to stop the evil that is confronting us is a civic act. Don’t kid yourself. The Presidential election is 44 days away - we have a chance to stop the promotion of evil - and I really do believe that we have a positive obligation to do whatever it is we can. And, we can all vote our conscience,

God bless

So nothing else you do on election day matters? That is an interesting theory. God doesn’t hear our prayers? Are all Masses offered invalid? Does the time I spend with my family bear no fruit?

I agree that we have a positive obligation to do whatever we can to stop the promotion of evil. After examining the evidence, I think casting my vote for either President Obama or Mr. Romney would promote evil.

Your assertion that Mr. Romney has not funded abortion is false. Personally he’s donated money to Planned Parenthood. As a government leader, his signature achievement, “Romneycare”, included taxpayer funded abortions.

mahealthconnector.org/portal/binary/com.epicentric.contentmanagement.servlet.ContentDeliveryServlet/About%2520Us/Connector%2520Programs/Additional%2520Resources/cc_benefits1220_pt234.pdf

Pax Christi

 

[Dan_Daly]

Perhaps the National Right to Life Committee would have endorsed Obama if it had received funding from the DNC? I would like to see the contortions they would have to go through for that!

You do bring up an interesting question though…

If President Obama got on TV tonight and informed Americans that after looking through a microscope he’d suddenly realized that life is precious and abortion is bad (except when it’s not)…what excuse would Pro-lifers have for not taking him as his word?

After all, we’re told we have to ignore Mr. Romney’s records and actions and simply trust what he says during the campaign even if it’s entirely inconsistent with that record.

So if we have to trust Romney and ignore his record, why wouldn’t we have to trust Obama and ingore his record as well?

I think it’s far more reasonable to examine both men’s records.

Pax Christi

 

[pnewton]

I suggest you watch “The Tudors” on netflix. It was about all the liberal corruption in our Church and all the liberal corruption that brought down King Henry the 8th. History is just repeating itself.

The movie you mentioned is fiction, albeit historical fiction, like Dan Brown’s stuff. I don’t think history is so much repeating itself as it is not yet fully played out.

I am glad that you and many others find this election so clear cut. I have found it much more difficult. By this I do not think either of us is right or wrong.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I agree that money is the root of all evil if people are on the edge of starvation, like they did 2000 years ago, but we don’t have that problem here in the US due to all the safety nets.

I suggest you watch “The Tudors” on netflix. It was about all the liberal corruption in our Church and all the liberal corruption that brought down King Henry the 8th. History is just repeating itself. Now, if God does not exist, then I agree that it’s no problem. In that case, we should all be liberal hedonists who consume and consume and consume (which is where the far left is taking us) until there’s nothing left. It’s a great way to destroy a nation that cannot be defeated militarily.

This election is more about God vs godlessness than it is about the candidates. It’s too bad that many people have been fooled into believing it is about money. The far left is trying to make it about class warfare for very good reason.

I agree that life is about God vs godlessness. However, I don’t see how electing a pagan who supports intrinsic evils (Mr. Romney) is striking a blow for the cause of God.

It’s interesting how “conservatives” reviled the Democratic Party for excluding mention of God from their party platform, while at the same time idolizing our country’s founders who intentionally excluded mention of God from the Constitution.

Pax Christi