Do we vote for the lesser of two evils?

[Rich_Olszewski]

Hi, TexCatholic4JMJ,

The only thing that is ‘clear’ about our President is the trail of deceit he has blazed both in foreign and domestic policies.

God help us all.

Not to worry, TexCatholic! Though I intend to vote neither for Obama or Romney, I see no problem with anyone voting for Obama based on what posters here are saying.

Almost every last conservative here is 100% sure that Romney will win, either by a landslide or by a high percentage. Given that such has to be true, what difference will it make if Obama gets a few dozen or so votes more from CAF folk? How will that affect the election if Romney is already a shoe-in? A tempest in a teapot as I see it.

 

[seekerz]

Hi, ProVobis,

Glad you asked.

You see, there are just so many areas that cold be addressed I will pick just one. If you wish more, just let me know. Their number is Legion…

I think the only honest way to compare these two men and how they have handled their respective positions of temporal authority is to look at Obama as President and Romney as Governor. I have not found one instance with Gov Romney promised to respect religious freedom and then repeatedly went back on his word! Now, if you have such information, please share it with the thread. Converesly, President Obama’s betrayal of what he promised at Notre Dame University is profoundly disturbing for a leader to betray the trust of so many on such an important topic. And, here are the links:

ncregister.com/daily-news…ic-conscience/

humanevents.com/2012/05/2…ld-notre-dame/

lifenews.com/2012/06/22/o…om-the-church/

cfnews.org/page10/page15/page15.html

There seems to be the mistaken belief that since Obama is not ‘running for God’ then whatever he does is just fine because…shucks… none of us are perfect! “God” does not appear as a position on any ballot that will appear on Nov 6 - so, just trying to keep it real seems to be a major accomplishment.

And, in the process of ‘keeping it real’ you are invited to provide references where Romney betrayed others in a public speech that said one thing while he worked very hard to violate what he just promised. He, there is no belitteling this President’s ability to lie without blinking, winking or showing the least hint of embarrassment. He’s cool - very cool when it comes to deceit. But, just look at what he is doing - and then compare it to what Romney has done.

I await your references.

God bless

Obama is not aspiring to be God and that is the centerpiece of my support for him versus Romney. Sorry if you have a problem with that. What Romney did as governor is not relevant because he has disavowed his main achievement during that time, so why should I look at anything else from that time? I’m much more interested in how he sees himself vis a vis other mere mortals.

 

[ProVobis]

I await your references.

No need to wait long.

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

 

[Tampa_Dave]

Not to worry, TexCatholic! Though I intend to vote neither for Obama or Romney, I see no problem with anyone voting for Obama based on what posters here are saying.

Almost every last conservative here is 100% sure that Romney will win, either by a landslide or by a high percentage. Given that such has to be true, what difference will it make if Obama gets a few dozen or so votes more from CAF folk? How will that affect the election if Romney is already a shoe-in? A tempest in a teapot as I see it.

I’m conservative. I will vote for Romney in Virginia. I am not confident he will win the election. Honestly, I believe Romney will lose by 2% to 3% in the popular vote and by 10 plus in the electoral college. I hope I’m wrong, but the American people are like Europeans: they love their entitlements. I fully believe we are evolving into the next European Union. Changing demographics and our growing entitlement society will ultimately cost the GOP votes long-term as well. We could become a permanent minority party.

 

[mary_bobo]

I’m conservative. I will vote for Romney in Virginia. I am not confident he will win the election. Honestly, I believe Romney will lose by 2% to 3% in the popular vote and by 10 plus in the electoral college. I hope I’m wrong, but the American people are like Europeans: they love their entitlements. I fully believe we are evolving into the next European Union. Changing demographics and our growing entitlement society will ultimately cost the GOP votes long-term as well. We could become a permanent minority party.

I fear you are right. Over the years, Americans have lost their “can do” spirit. It is all what is good for me at this moment and the rest be darned. As I have said before, I am glad I am as old as I am because if Obama gets reelected, I shudder to think what he will do by executive fiat. I just hope I am around long enough to say “I told you so.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

I will vote for Romney in Virginia. I am not confident he will win the election. Honestly, I believe Romney will lose by 2% to 3% in the popular vote and by 10 plus in the electoral college. I hope I’m wrong, but the American people are like Europeans: they love their entitlements. I fully believe we are evolving into the next European Union. Changing demographics and our growing entitlement society will ultimately cost the GOP votes long-term as well. We could become a permanent minority party.

I largely agree with this prediction. I believe that Obama will win, simply becomes he owns the media (MSNBC, WAPO, NYT, L.A. Times and most metro media rags), and the media is highly persuasive. (I believe that a minority of voters of any party are truly informed about objective differences between/among various candidates, in any election – at least when it comes to national elections. I do not believe that most voters fact-check for themselves, let alone look at long-term implications versus short-term promises or short-term likely results.) Most voters focus on the sound-bites, the headlines. Certainly not all voters, and certainly not only those who are not educated.

However, never should any voter not vote for his or her candidate out of “predictions.” I believe it was Jimmy Carter who won by less than one vote per precinct. I was raised to believe in voting no matter what the odds or stated predictions are.

 

[je333]

Hi, Je333,

Yes, I guess I did not quite use the exact terminology - it is disordered, and I said it is evil. Again, I am just talking behavior. Are you saying that homosexual BEHAVIOR is not sinful? is not evil? That is the issue. I would appreciate you addressing this - because this is what I was talking about.

I look forward to you addressing the rest of my post.

God bless

Let me address this quickly before the thread closes.

I think, it’s best to define behavior, first. This is taken from Wikipedia.

Human behavior refers to the range of behaviors exhibited by humans and which are influenced by culture, attitudes, emotions, values, ethics, authority, rapport, hypnosis, persuasion, coercion and/or genetics.

The behavior of people (and other organisms or even mechanisms) falls within a range with some behavior being common, some unusual, some acceptable, and some outside acceptable limits. In sociology, behavior in general is considered as having no meaning, being not directed at other people, and thus is the most basic human action. Behavior in this general sense should not be mistaken with social behavior, which is a more advanced action, as social behavior is behavior specifically directed at other people. The acceptability of behavior is evaluated relative to social norms and regulated by various means of social control.

The behavior of humans is studied by the academic disciplines of psychiatry, psychology, social work, sociology, economics, and anthropology.

I am unsure as to what exactly you have in mind because the word encompasses such broad meaning. But if I were to make a few assumptions of what I think you might be talking about, perhaps, in the area of mannerism and sexual behavior, then here is my comment. Their mannerism is not sinful nor I deem it evil. The way a person carries himself/herself in body posture, speaking, or choices of preferred clothing as efiminate or butch is not sinful or evil. The display of holding hands in public, cuddling, courting is just expressing their fondness for each other and also I don’t deem it sinful and evil. However, on the sexual area, according to the bible, CCC and Church teachings, it is considered sinful and disordered, but not evil.

So, the behavior of homosexual in the area of sex is sinful and disordered. It is not intrinsic evil as you have claimed. The Church falls short of labeling it evil.

The evilness in my opinion is the porn industry’s way to capitalize for profit on the vulnerablitiy of the group, using homosexuality to exploit, lure and tempt them to sin.

 

[je333]

I fear you are right. Over the years, Americans have lost their “can do” spirit. It is all what is good for me at this moment and the rest be darned. As I have said before, I am glad I am as old as I am because if Obama gets reelected, I shudder to think what he will do by executive fiat. I just hope I am around long enough to say “I told you so.”

Have no fear, my dear. Put all your trust in Jesus Christ. It’s all in his hand!

 

[BroomWagon]

No need to wait long.

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

Let’s not forget Planned Parenthood is making ads attacking Romney’s pro-life position.

thedailybeast.com/videos/2012/09/25/planned-parenthood-continues-attack-on-romney.html

Planned Parenthood Spending Millions To Attack Romney In Swing States

Read more: nation.foxnews.com/planned-parenthood/2012/09/25/planned-parenthood-spending-millions-attack-romney-swing-states#ixzz28GJSq7Uw

Let’s not forget Paul Ryan, Veep Candidate is about as pro-life as one could hope for.

 

[BroomWagon]

And what would be the difference between lying and etch-a-sketching, a term incidentally brought about by Romney’s own party?

Go ahead and vote for Obama if Voting 4 times against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act (in other words, allowing live babies to die because they survived abortion) is something you feel is real virtuous!

 

[je333]

No one is talking about ‘persecution’ or of being other-wise uncharitable to someone who claims to have an inclination to someone of the same sex

How have you extended the love and compassion that Jesus have for these people? How did you show charitable acts to the community or to just even one of its members?

There are some real concerns about homosexual behavior being impressed upon an impressionable child as a ‘normal’ response. But, let’s not get carried away - let’s imagine something totally different. Imagine if you will a ‘Straight Pride’ group - these would be hetersexual males and females - some single, some couples demonstrating in-your-face their sexual orientation. There would be banners (I guess black and white would be appropriate - but, I would leave that decision to others…) and yes, babies would be carried and baby buggies/strollers decorated and all manner of demonstrations

I see this everywhere around the world being publicly displayed and celebrated in homes, government, religion and culture. You can even see this kind of display by the straight groups in gay pride!

of how God’s work is manifest in Genesis when He made male and female and joined them together. I started off by saying to use your imagination … this is necessary because such events really do not exist - at least as far as I know.

How you worded God’s creation of first male and first female in the beginning in Genesis is not entirely correct. Male and female were created joined first in one body but separated them for creation. I don’t need imagination. You know that I know what you are referring to. But that is up to you to believe. And it should give you an idea of how to treat all his creations including “homosexuals” with the respect they need. Only if the group is not lured into the worldly lifestyle they are in… sigh… They are created for much bigger purpose, you know, not the same sex marriage they are being lured to.

And, oh… male and female joined together in one body is the definition of marriage…

Now, let’s take a look at another group. This would be a group that ‘celebrates’ how they have sex - with whomever they wish and wherever they want. They accuse those who do not agree with them of being closed-minded, hatefully motivated and determined to persecute them out of existence. Being a minority - a truly small minority, as far as we know - they are claiming discrimination and have begun to compare themselves to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s. And, as we see them on parade we notice their banner proclaiming the rights of those who wish to engage in pedophilia. Hmmmmmmmmm. I think the comparrison is appropriate: both groups (Gay Pride and ‘Pedi Pride’) have soooooooo much in common it is astounding

.

You have a way of pushing the issue to the edge… If you are saying that LGBT are pedophilliac, then, no! And if that is the reason why conservatives are apprehensive about letting them adopt then that is unfortunate.

While it may seem easy to dismiss my imaginary ‘Pedi Pride’ group - to be honest about it - one has to say just why it is different from ‘Gay Pride’ and their goals. Remember, a child can easily express themselves as to what they want - there is no need for parental supervision when people are free to express themselves. And, don’t forget, Christ died for all of these sinners, too!
My guess is that there is no honest way to discriminate against one while promoting the other. Both would be called ‘intrisic evil’ by the Church - but, really, that is of little consequence to those who want to fight prejudice and be free of restraint.
Give it some thought. And, then, kindly share those thoughts with those on this thread.
God bless

Tom, it is intrinsic evil or should I say disordered to be dwelling on people’s sins. You’ve got to fight the sins of the people by love and mercy so you can penitrate to the sinners and be able to extend that love. All of us are sinners. So, how have you extended the love and compassion to the sinners? What charitable acts have you done to Barack Obama, to the dissenting Catholics, to the Pro-Choice women, to the LGBT community?

God Bless,
je333

 

[seekerz]

je333:
Tom, it is intrinsic evil or should I say disordered to be dwelling on people’s sins. You’ve got to fight the sins of the people by love and mercy so you can penitrate to the sinners and be able to extend that love. All of us are sinners. So, how have you extended the love and compassion to the sinners? What charitable acts have you done to Barack Obama, to the dissenting Catholics, to the Pro-Choice women, to the LGBT community?

God Bless,
je333

What can I say? Your charity leaves me speechless…

 

[Elizabeth502]

So, how have you extended the love and compassion to the sinners? What charitable acts have you done to Barack Obama, to the dissenting Catholics, to the Pro-Choice women, to the LGBT community?

How is it absolutely any business of yours what Tom does regarding the virtue of charity?

Are you his spiritual director? His parish priest? His Confessor? Why are you so interested in judging him and evaluating his level of virtue? He has not done so to others. He is discussing the reality of political and social coercion by one group who seeks to alter the structure of society(away from the complementary family unit) and to institutionalize that re-structuring, forever, with various strategies, many of which are highly uncharitable and disrespectful to governments and religious institutions.

Un. Real.

 

[je333]

how is it absolutely any business of yours what tom does regarding the virtue of charity?

Are you his spiritual director? His parish priest? His confessor? Why are you so interested in judging him and evaluating his level of virtue? He has not done so to others. He is discussing the reality of political and social coercion by one group who seeks to alter the structure of society(away from the complementary family unit) and to institutionalize that re-structuring, forever, with various strategies, many of which are highly uncharitable and disrespectful to governments and religious institutions.

un. Real.

Real

 

[tqualey]

Hi, ProVobis,

Thank you for your prompt respose.

Ah, both videos were the same, not sure if you meant to send that… but, let’s move on. These were videos of Romney through the years claiming that he will protect a woman’s ‘right to choose’. He said this serveral times - and based on how he looked, he was quite young when he first said it - middle aged - and now more like he looks today as the Republcan Candidate. And, that is your presentation - Romney is pro-abortion? OK, I do not think anyone has said anything even hinting that Romney’s past support for abortion was ever an issue. Are you aware of any change on this?

Now, if you would like something current - even though it is still that Romney supports abortion - here is a video you may enjoy: cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57501172/romney-my-views-on-abortion-rights-are-clear-/

And while I would not have voted for Romney in any of the Primaries, he is the only viable choice I see for someone NOT promoting (but, yes, he is accepting of) abortion. In keeping with the title of this thread, I honestly see Romney as the lesser of 2 evils. I certainly believe Obama’s vision of income distribution, a demoralized economy and our current $16 Trillion debt rising still higher… and, oh, yes - there will be more federal judges who sign of to abortion, more Mandates that destroy religious liberty and more problems for anyone with a conscience exercising it without being persecuted by a government official.

For those who still do not see a difference between Romney and Obama - I really have nothing else to say except we will all be held accountable before God on how we choose.

God bless

No need to wait long.

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

youtube.com/watch?v=lNDsyKnQIes

 

[TimeEntrance]

Catholics have a duty to vote

ewtn.com/vote/voting_faq.htm

Bishop Gracida

Those Catholic voters who love moral absolutes would have no choice but to vote for candidate, but those Catholics who recognize that in the real world it is sometimes necessary to choose the lesser of two evils in order to prevent greater harm—in this case harm to innocent unborn children would vote for candidate

smwa.org/Documents/Letters/Bishop_Letter/Bishop_Letter.htm

So, side with Stalin or side with Hitler, that kind of dilemma.

Since Bishops like philosophy - theology - my question would be if two know candidates were zealot members of the Church of Satan, would you vote for one, the kinder one?

I don’t get too worked up over democracy. I don’t necessarily have any beef with democracy and enjoy a number of things living in the modern republic of the United States.

But if the Christian narrative is true I don’t think there is anything particularly sacred about democracies.

I should point out that it’s not my intention to portray Romney and Obama as Stalin and Hitler. Neither are anything like those two. I was just putting up a dilemma of which of the two evils does one pick if they pick one at all.

I don’t think Obama is anti-Catholic either. I just think he is largely indifferent to the Catholic Church and sincerely subscribes to some of the beliefs on the political left. I’d like to believe his intentions are well meant even if misdirected.

I don’t think Romney cares for - or identifies with - most Americans either.

I’d be curious if Jesus would vote or if he would just stay out of the political process as a whole? If he did vote I wonder who he would vote for?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Je333,

Thank you for the definition from Wiki.

So, accordig to you: However, on the sexual area, according to the bible, CCC and Church teachings, it is considered sinful and disordered, but not evil.

How can something possibly be considered as sinful and disordered not also be considered evil. We may need to define that term, too. Maybe a practical example rather then some abstraction wold be helpful. Sodomy is considered both sinful and disordred. Would you not consider this also evil?

Here are a couple of link to help you along:

tanbooks.com/doct/church_sodomy.htm

lesfemmes-thetruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/sodomy-and-theology-of-body-death-of.html

As I see it, there is no need to not address this issue since you appear to defend it - but just not with clarity. Again we are talking behavior - and you may use sodomy as a specific behavior to consider.

God bless

Let me address this quickly before the thread closes.

I think, it’s best to define behavior, first. This is taken from Wikipedia.

**

I am unsure as to what exactly you have in mind because the word encompasses such broad meaning. But if I were to make a few assumptions of what I think you might be talking about, perhaps, in the area of mannerism and sexual behavior, then here is my comment. Their mannerism is not sinful nor I deem it evil. The way a person carries himself/herself in body posture, speaking, or choices of preferred clothing as efiminate or butch is not sinful or evil. The display of holding hands in public, cuddling, courting is just expressing their fondness for each other and also I don’t deem it sinful and evil. However, on the sexual area, according to the bible, CCC and Church teachings, it is considered sinful and disordered, but not evil.

So, the behavior of homosexual in the area of sex is sinful and disordered. It is not intrinsic evil as you have claimed. The Church falls short of labeling it evil.

The evilness in my opinion is the porn industry’s way to capitalize for profit on the vulnerablitiy of the group, using homosexuality to exploit, lure and tempt them to sin.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’m voting for Virgil Goode and my conscience is clear!

Also, it looks like Archbishop Lori would pat me on the back for it! Yay!

And yes, I think not only Catholics, but everyone is disadvantaged because they buy into the mentality of the lesser of two evils. Or maybe they don’t see any other options than the 2 they’ve got in front of them. Polls suggest 65%-70% of American voters would have considered voting third party this election.

Sadly, it is unlikely that even 2%. [A tremendous showing for third parties would be if all of them combined got more than 2% of the total vote].

America is one of only a handful of democracies that has a 2 party system. Why do we act like it’s the only way to go, when it clearly isn’t? And most ppl are at least fed up enough to vote for an entirely different party anyways.

I used to vote third party quite consistently, but I just don’t have the luxury anymore. The democrats have been take over the environmentalists, Marxists and socialists. Talk about third party, the democrats have become so radical that a lot of folks in these parties vote D consistently and ignore their own parties.

There is some third-party momentum at a local level. Minnesota has an Independence Party, but their candidate was an ex-republican who basically split some of the vote and now they have a radical democrat governor who in his first few months presided over one of the longest government shut-downs in history.

Vermont has a Progressive Party and Tom Tancredo nearly won the governorship in Colorado running Third Party in 2010, but again the republican vote got split (very unevenly) but the result was a D got elected.

In this election, which I think is the most important since the Civil War, people aren’t gambling, and throughout the history of the elections, that is what has happened. One strong third-party only draws votes from the other. Think Perot in 92 or Nader in 04 in Florida.

I really think that is why enough of the TEA PARTY supported Romney to get him the nomination, because they thought he’d be the best shot having had success in deep blue bastions.

There’s just too much at stake.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, TimeEntrance,

Your examples are extreme and unrealistic. Neither Obama or Romney is a Stalin or Hitler.

Ultimately, the issue is which Candidate has the best chance of undoing Obama’s attack on religious freedom and the promotion of abortion both foreign and domestic.

Maybe in the remaining 34 days a sober and more realistic view of what is really at stake will prevail.

God bless

So, side with Stalin or side with Hitler, that kind of dilemma.

Since Bishops like philosophy - theology - my question would be if two know candidates were zealot members of the Church of Satan, would you vote for one, the kinder one?

I don’t get too worked up over democracy. I don’t necessarily have any beef with democracy and enjoy a number of things living in the modern republic of the United States.

But if the Christian narrative is true I don’t think there is anything particularly sacred about democracies.

I should point out that it’s not my intention to portray Romney and Obama as Stalin and Hitler. Neither are anything like those two. I was just putting up a dilemma of which of the two evils does one pick if they pick one at all.

I don’t think Obama is anti-Catholic either. I just think he is largely indifferent to the Catholic Church and sincerely subscribes to some of the beliefs on the political left. I’d like to believe his intentions are well meant even if misdirected.

I don’t think Romney cares for - or identifies with - most Americans either.

I’d be curious if Jesus would vote or if he would just stay out of the political process as a whole? If he did vote I wonder who he would vote for?

 

[SuperLuigi]

I don’t think Obama is anti-Catholic either. I just think he is largely indifferent to the Catholic Church and sincerely subscribes to some of the beliefs on the political left. I’d like to believe his intentions are well meant even if misdirected.

If Obama were indifferent to our Church, do you think that Catholic leaders would be suing him since the HHS mandate requires us to pay for other people’s contraception?