Do you believe people are born gay?

[Christopher68]

NOT ONLY are People NOT BORN GAY,
that fact is the reason there is so much HOPE for overcoming same sex attraction!.

Honestly, there is so much ignorance and misinformation on this one point it makes me cry.:bighanky:

I found a new website that seems to center entirely on education of the origins of SSA.

ssahope.com

ssahope.com/same_sex_attraction_education.html

I have met several ex-gays and read and heard dozens of testimonials - I also know several gay identified men and women. I can click off the factors that contributed to their gay identity. There is NO DOUBT in my mind IT IS ABSOLUTELY possible to overcome attractions to the same gender and everyone should know it!

One thing that is abundently clear in reading this thread is that those who have strong feelings in opposition to homosexuality are much more inclined to believe that it simply a choice and not something they are born with, and vice versa. It’s natural to seek out data that somehow supports your position, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true. As I mentioned in a prior post, we don’t know for certain whether people are born gay or not, but I find it almost impossible to believe that someone would simply ‘choose’ to be gay - especially with all the discrimination and condemnation they receive from certain segments of society. That literally makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[chrysostim83]

The issue is not whether one is born gay, or learns to be gay–“nature vs. nurture” is commonly misunderstood as applied to this topic. The real question that most people have, and I suspect the OP had, is whether someone is *involuntarily *gay.

This is a really great insight. It seems absurd to get worked up over a mere matter of fact such as where homosexuality comes from—but it makes a lot more sense if the lines are getting crossed with genuinely moral issues about the possibility of choosing homosexuality to begin with or changing it after it is recognized.

 

[distracted]

Yes, I believe that some homosexuals were born that way. Others have chosen it based on various factors in their lives. As other posters have said, there are many homosexuals who fervently claim that they have no control over what they are attracted too, just as a heterosexual man or woman has no control over the fact that they are physically attracted to the opposite sex. And I believe them.

What all homosexuals DO have a choice in is whether they act on those feelings an engage in sex. Some homosexuals do remain celibate, or try to, and I believe that they should be encouraged and not continuously looked down on as being the sexual heathens. They are trying leave that behind. I think that most reasonable Catholics feel similarly.

Also, because of the way the OP was written I wanted to add that, in secular society, lesbianism is not really the same thing as male homosexuality. In society, men are turned on by two women together and it does not carry the “ick” factor of male homosexuality. So women experimenting with lesbianism is more prevalent and I don’t think would be fair to use the fact that many women experiment with lesbianism and then get married as a good example of how people are not born homosexual. This does not mean that some women are not born homosexual, it’s just that our secular sex culture allows women a lot of room to experiment so you will see women who are otherwise heterosexual, engaging in homosexual behavior.

well, god doesn’t like it either way, that’s all i know… i pray for them to come out of it…

i don’t belive anyone is born that way. they may be born with an imbalance in hormones or whatever… that causes them to be inclined a certain way but taht doesn’t mean anything… again, people have choices…

i notice that the longer i am celibate, the more i am attracted to the oposite sex… in a bigger and bigger way… not that i was ever sexually attracted to the same sex by a long shot… but as stated, i do appreciate the beauty of the female body. God knows waht he is doing, of course…

i think a lot of people just see some thing like that in themselves… som “appreciation” of the same sex and go with it … calling themselves gay when they don’t have to be…

God knows but whether “born” that way or not… there is no excuse because everyone has a conscience… at least until its blown throgh sin and lack of repentance…

 

[distracted]

One thing that is abundently clear in reading this thread is that those who have strong feelings in opposition to homosexuality are much more inclined to believe that it simply a choice and not something they are born with, and vice versa. It’s natural to seek out data that somehow supports your position, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true. As I mentioned in a prior post, we don’t know for certain whether people are born gay or not, but I find it almost impossible to believe that someone would simply ‘choose’ to be gay - especially with all the discrimination and condemnation they receive from certain segments of society. That literally makes no sense whatsoever.

knowing Chirst means knowing His mind about things… and His mind is against being gay and i am 99% sure he does NOT say that gays are born that way… I guess its kinda moot since we’ll never know in this life… probably.

all i know is that it was the Cahtlic Church (rosary first of all) that saved me from all my sins… and so… it can save anyone else too, regardless of what the sin is… and that’s about all we need to remember in this whole issue…

so hopefully all you catechized Catholics out there are catechizing the enitre world… or your world anyhow…

i wish someone had catechized me when i was young… i wish SO badly that someone had FORCED this religion on me… I would have listened if someone had explained the Catechism… i would have been VERY interested…

don’t assume that peple don’t want to hear about Catholicism… this young guy i just meet read something i wrote about Catholicism and was far more open to it thatn i thoght h;'ed be … even though he’s a liberal (i think… don’t know him well enough to say… but tend to think so)

and even if someone seems disinterested, plant a seed and some day that seed may bear fruit…

 

[carinapir]

i don’t belive anyone is born that way. they may be born with an imbalance in hormones or whatever… that causes them to be inclined a certain way but taht doesn’t mean anything… again, people have choices…

To me saying that people are born gay is just a shorthand way of saying exactly what you said in your post. So you do then, by my definition, believe that some people are “born that way.” There is something, whatever you want to call it, in them that causes an attraction to the same sex in a way that most of us do not have.

As you say, females can find each other attractive in a non-sexual way. Maybe men can too but they wouldn’t admit to it and maybe some men who find themselves finding other men attractive assume that they are gay and give it a try. I don’t know. All I know is that I believe that some people actually feel that they don’t have a choice in their attraction and we cannot look into their minds and hearts and find the truth. All we can do is tell them is that regardless of the attraction that they feel, the Lord says that they are not to engage in sexual activity of that kind. They can “be” homosexual in the sense that it is not required that they brainwash themselves into not having the attraction at all. If some of them can, then great, they can marry women and live normal lives. But if they cannot, they are only required to obtain from sex and in furtherance of that it is best that they limit certain kinds of contact with the same-sex, such as living together.

A homosexual person can be just as Catholic as you or I. It’s just a lot harder.

 

[Lynxdk]

knowing Chirst means knowing His mind about things… and His mind is against being gay and i am 99% sure he does NOT say that gays are born that way… I guess its kinda moot since we’ll never know in this life… probably.

It’s only a moot point in ~your~ life because it’s outside of your personal experience. Jesus is not against being gay because being gay is not like being a doctor or being a dishwasher, it’s not a choice, regardless if the arguments used are nature or nurture.

I can understand if, in your mind, the part your reflecting on and finding wrong is to say someone who is naturally and completely hetero were to go against their nature and use other people of the same sex purely as sex objects… that’s just as wrong as using someone of the opposite sex that way… the difference is in the semantics.

 

[CarlaOLS]

NO NO NO!

So many of you still don’t get it. There are two reasons why gay identifed people are desperate to believe they were born that way and it taints EVERY discussion on the matter even here. And it needen’t.

1. Persons affected and those who know them want to feel guilt-free over their condition, and consequent actions.
2. The feelings and attractions are so strong and almost knee jerk, and hard to overcome, deny or control (without the proper mindset, introspection, knowledge and prayer) that believing they are inborn seems an easy assumption.

BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO GUILT over the attractions themselves and only healthy guilt, ie that connected to sin over any sexual acts one engaged in because of the attractions.

Language is a learned behavior, but new languages are learned everyday, and if used, the old language disappears. Still it makes a poor example.

A better example would be a destructive behavior. Let’s take a man that overeats to soothe himself and has done so since childhood. Everyone would agree he should change his behavior and mindset. In self-analysis, and/or with a good psycho therapist, he is led through his past and first learns all the reasons why he overeats. THEN he learns other ways to console himself and become whole, finally he struggles to change his learned behavior and habits, to think a new way and respond differently to his emotions.

IT ABSOLUTELY MATTERS if the person is born gay - if it’s hardwired or not.

THEY ARE NOT BORN GAY - NO NO NO. It is a combination of factors that causes SSA. It is likely that some are born with certain personality traits ie sensitive, artistic nature that leaves them more prone to contracting SSA when other factors are in place. BUT HERE"S THE POINT - IF those factors were not present, and the stars not aligned just so, (which is why the incidence of sibling SSA is statistically too low for it to be genetic) THEN the person would not later in life develop SSA.

There is so much more to say, but I beg anyone expecially Catholics who consider themselves gay identified to pray for more wisdom and guidance - and DO NOT BELIEVE GOD MADE YOU to develop SSA.

SUE BOHLIN makes some good points:

Why did God do this to me?

It may feel like God did it, but let us suggest a different framework.

We are born into a fallen world, each of us is born broken; brokenness is manifested in various ways in various people. Everybody experiences a different aspect of our fallen world, and this is your aspect.

We experience two kinds of pressure that can end up as SSA: the external pressures of being sinned against by fallen people (such as neglect, abuse, or a disconnect), and the internal pressures that come from responding in the flesh to anything apart from God to fix ourselves and make us feel better.

Flesh is the part of us that operates apart from God’s empowering: self-oriented, self-gratifying, self-determining. All of us are born with nothing but flesh; at the moment you trust Christ, your spirit comes alive and you suddenly have a new source of power and transformation available only by yielding to God on a moment-by-moment basis. It is like being an appliance that gets plugged into a working power outlet at conversion. Operating in the Spirit (instead of the flesh) means you turn the power switch to “on.” The moment you rely on yourself instead of God, you flip the switch off. The power is still available, but you are not using it. On a spiritual level, homosexuality is a result of responding to circumstances and pressures in your life in the flesh instead of turning to God in yieldedness and submission in the spirit.

GOD HAS A GREAT AND MYSTERIOUS PLAN for each one of us, and the amazing transformation that happens to those who have been freed of SSA shows HIS GLORY so brightly every life they touch is also changed. SSA has great potential for giving glory to God.

Check out this page too. EX GAY TESTIMONIES

 

[Dousias]

A homosexual person can be just as Catholic as you or I. It’s just a lot harder.

Hi Carinapir-

Yes they can, but it does require one minor adjustment and one that most people make when joining any organization. Rarely do people agree on all points of order or dogma. They pick and choose the points that have relevance to their lives and ignore the points that don’t. Religions attract people because they have positive social impact for their members. Yet within the teachings lie misconceptions or misrepresentations that people are not in agreement with. Intelligent people recognize this and ignore irrelevant issues while seeing and experiencing the wonderful aspects of spiritual life.

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[Kevin42]

NO NO NO!

So many of you still don’t get it. There are two reasons why gay identifed people are desperate to believe they were born that way and it taints EVERY discussion on the matter even here. And it needen’t.

1. Persons affected and those who know them want to feel guilt-free over their condition, and consequent actions.
2. The feelings and attractions are so strong and almost knee jerk, and hard to overcome, deny or control (without the proper mindset, introspection, knowledge and prayer) that believing they are inborn seems an easy assumption.

BUT THERE SHOULD BE NO GUILT over the attractions themselves and only healthy guilt, ie that connected to sin over any sexual acts one engaged in because of the attractions.

Language is a learned behavior, but new languages are learned everyday, and if used, the old language disappears. Still it makes a poor example.

A better example would be a destructive behavior. Let’s take a man that overeats to soothe himself and has done so since childhood. Everyone would agree he should change his behavior and mindset. In self-analysis, and/or with a good psycho therapist, he is led through his past and first learns all the reasons why he overeats. THEN he learns other ways to console himself and become whole, finally he struggles to change his learned behavior and habits, to think a new way and respond differently to his emotions.

IT ABSOLUTELY MATTERS if the person is born gay - if it’s hardwired or not.

THEY ARE NOT BORN GAY - NO NO NO. It is a combination of factors that causes SSA. It is likely that some are born with certain personality traits ie sensitive, artistic nature that leaves them more prone to contracting SSA when other factors are in place. BUT HERE"S THE POINT - IF those factors were not present, and the stars not aligned just so, (which is why the incidence of sibling SSA is statistically too low for it to be genetic) THEN the person would not later in life develop SSA.

There is so much more to say, but I beg anyone expecially Catholics who consider themselves gay identified to pray for more wisdom and guidance - and DO NOT BELIEVE GOD MADE YOU to develop SSA.

SUE BOHLIN makes some good points:

GOD HAS A GREAT AND MYSTERIOUS PLAN for each one of us, and the amazing transformation that happens to those who have been freed of SSA shows HIS GLORY so brightly every life they touch is also changed. SSA has great potential for giving glory to God.

Check out this page too. EX GAY TESTIMONIES

You have provided absolutely no scientific evidence to support your belief. Sue Bohlin has absolutely no scholarly credibility in this area that I could find. Furthermore, anecdotes cannot be used as scientific evidence to support a hypothesis. If you want to personally believe that homosexuality is not inborn, that is your prerogative. However, without any evidence you should not expect other people agree with you, and you certainly should not pass of your own belief as the “truth”.

 

[Dousias]

There is so much more to say, but I beg anyone expecially Catholics who consider themselves gay identified to pray for more wisdom and guidance - and DO NOT BELIEVE GOD MADE YOU to develop SSA.

Hi CarlaOLS,

The common thinking is God is perfect and all things created by God are perfect too. (I believe that is a great truth) Then the wide range of human experience is perfect too. Yes, that includes many experiences that we would see as negative such as famine, war and poverty. But all this and more are Her great gift to us if we see them as paths to spiritual oneness. A good example would be the endless horror of World War Two and Adolph Hitler’s genocide of Poles and Jews. Because of this horrible tragedy, it is highly unlikely to be allowed to ever happen again. From a huge negative forms an even larger positive. We judge things as wrong without recognizing they are paths to rightness.

Is thinking our God creates imperfection healthy?

Blessed be, Dousias

 

[chrysostim83]

CarlaOLS----

Let me relate your posts to the OP’s question by exhibiting your argument in a schematic form:

1. 
   *]If gay people were born that way, then reparative therapy wouldn’t change any gay people (Premiss)
   *]There is scientific and anecdotal evidence that reparative therapy changes some gay people (insert evidence here)
   *]Thus, reparative therapy changes some gay people (inductive inference from 2)
   *]Therefore, gay people are not born that way (modus tolens with 1 and 3)
   
   Logically, this argument is flawless, but we can only accept it if the premisses are known to be true. Are they?
   
   We’ve already seen that premiss 1 is questionable. It is probable that most people with OCD are born that way, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be helped with a combination of drugs and (cognitive) therapy. I would guess that people are born either introverted or extroverted, but that doesn’t mean therapy can’t help them to balance their personality.
   
   Premiss 2 is also problematic. NARTH claims there is scientific evidence for therapeutically mediated change, but the APA disagrees. The recent report on “Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation” gives a very thorough review of the literature which deals with this question. Why not try to read it yourself to see if it is biased? If that sounds a bit heavy to you, you could check out Warren Throckmorton’s blog (Throckmorton used to be a reparative therapist until his research and clinical experience convinced him that this kind of therapy doesn’t work).
   
   So much for the argument. Let me add that when I deny the validity of reparative therapy, you seem to think I am emptying the Cross of its power. That is certainly not my intention. I am only saying that homosexuality might be like concupiscence insofar as neither will be overcome in this life. So far as I can tell, there is nothing anti-Christian in this idea.

 

[Dr_MWJ]

It is the unerring doctrine of the RCC that the primary purpose of human marriage is procreation. Nevertheless, homosexuals and lesbians enter into gay marriage knowing fully well that no procreation can result from their marriage. They elevate a secondary good of marriage - pleasure - into the primary good in direct defiance of God’s counsel. This seems to me to be a very dangerous game of playing chicken with God.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

CarlaOLS;5885747:

There is so much more to say, but I beg anyone expecially Catholics who consider themselves gay identified to pray for more wisdom and guidance - and DO NOT BELIEVE GOD MADE YOU to develop SSA.

Hi CarlaOLS,

The common thinking is God is perfect and all things created by God are perfect too. (I believe that is a great truth) Then the wide range of human experience is perfect too. Yes, that includes many experiences that we would see as negative such as famine, war and poverty. But all this and more are Her great gift to us if we see them as paths to spiritual oneness. A good example would be the endless horror of World War Two and Adolph Hitler’s genocide of Poles and Jews. Because of this horrible tragedy, it is highly unlikely to be allowed to ever happen again. From a huge negative forms an even larger positive. We judge things as wrong without recognizing they are paths to rightness.

Is thinking our God creates imperfection healthy?

Blessed be, Dousias

I don’t know of anyone who is perfect (except Jesus) and yet God made us all. We are all born with original sin.

I understand that people with SSA feel like they were born that way. But there is no proof of that. Just because from their earliest memories, they have been attracted to the same sex, does not make it so. Were pedifiles born that way? I understand that gays didn’t choose to be gay, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t explore the roots of these attractions and work to change them. Usually there is some unfulfilled need that ends up becoming sexualized.

The fact is that many people have changed their sexual preference. The video below is one example.

newschannel34.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoid=19961@wbgh.dayport.com&navCatId=3

The fact that the APA does not believe this does not impress me much. The Gay activists and liberals in college see to it that this will never be taught or widely accepted.

So all you people out there that are trying to take hope away from people struggling with SSA should seriously look at which side you are on. Are you on the side of holiness? Or are you siding with satan who is desparately trying to drag people into the pit? Or perhaps if you admitted that change was possible, you would have to re-examine your own life.

John Marie Philomena

 

[Lynxdk]

I understand that people with SSA feel like they were born that way. But there is no proof of that. Just because from their earliest memories, they have been attracted to the same sex, does not make it so. Were pedifiles born that way? I understand that gays didn’t choose to be gay, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t explore the roots of these attractions and work to change them. Usually there is some unfulfilled need that ends up becoming sexualized.

You’re assuming people that are gay don’t question these things, don’t explore these issues, and that their being told Not to question and explore, and just accept that they’re gay as if that also means that by doing so they also need to “have a gay lifestyle, as seen on TV” and that’s not the case at all. Then, to top it off, you throw in “usually there is some unfulfilled need…” as if that’s the cause of their being gay, to which you have no proof, and if they can just figure out what that is, it’ll “solve the problem they have!”

The Church of Scientology uses that same sort of arguments, that it’s earliest memories that cause people to become mentally ill, and if they simply go back over them the right way, they’ll be able to overcome the problems in their life… and guess what? It works for some people and you can find testimonials all over the place that say so… and yet, in my opinion, they’re still a dangerous cult, all things told.

I have yet to speak with ~anyone~ who identifies themselves under the generalized umbrella of LGBT who hasn’t deeply questioned themselves, why they are the way they are, what might have caused it, pouring over memories of childhood to see if they can understand what and when triggered and made them that way, as if they way they are is wrong and a problem that can be solved… if they can ~just figure it out!~ Unfortunately, not all problems are solvable in this world, and the answers some find work for themselves, aren’t always applicable to others.

The fact is that many people have changed their sexual preference. The video below is one example.

One example, for which you can find many more for whom it’s not worked at all, and in some cases even caused harm.

The fact that the APA does not believe this does not impress me much.

The APA doesn’t impress me much either, they’re not perfect, they have a lot of ideas of causes and remedies, but not all of them work equally on all people, but they do know that reparative therapy can lead some people into further depression, so pushing it as the answer to fix all people is not the answer any more than pushing Scientology is.

So all you people out there that are trying to take hope away from people struggling with SSA should seriously look at which side you are on. Are you on the side of holiness? Or are you siding with satan who is desparately trying to drag people into the pit? Or perhaps if you admitted that change was possible, you would have to re-examine your own life.

Accusing people of trying to take hope away from others and being on “the wrong side” isn’t going to get you anywhere because your judging the motives of others without knowing what their motives actually are. There’s a good reason why it says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged.”

I re-examine my own life and beliefs almost daily at times. Sometimes I just have to accept that I don’t have a definitive answer, and that answer is not going to come to me today, and that the answers I find that work for myself ~now~ aren’t necessarily the answers that will work for me ~tomorrow~… Nor are they applicable to everyone, nor should they be. Those are between me and God, and my own walk though this life… and ultimately, ~only~ God is capable of knowing and judging me.

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

You’re assuming people that are gay don’t question these things, don’t explore these issues, and that their being told Not to question and explore, and just accept that they’re gay as if that also means that by doing so they also need to “have a gay lifestyle, as seen on TV” and that’s not the case at all. Then, to top it off, you throw in “usually there is some unfulfilled need…” as if that’s the cause of their being gay, to which you have no proof, and if they can just figure out what that is, it’ll “solve the problem they have!”

The Church of Scientology uses that same sort of arguments, that it’s earliest memories that cause people to become mentally ill, and if they simply go back over them the right way, they’ll be able to overcome the problems in their life… and guess what? It works for some people and you can find testimonials all over the place that say so… and yet, in my opinion, they’re still a dangerous cult, all things told.

I have yet to speak with ~anyone~ who identifies themselves under the generalized umbrella of LGBT who hasn’t deeply questioned themselves, why they are the way they are, what might have caused it, pouring over memories of childhood to see if they can understand what and when triggered and made them that way, as if they way they are is wrong and a problem that can be solved… if they can ~just figure it out!~ Unfortunately, not all problems are solvable in this world, and the answers some find work for themselves, aren’t always applicable to others.

One example, for which you can find many more for whom it’s not worked at all, and in some cases even caused harm.

The APA doesn’t impress me much either, they’re not perfect, they have a lot of ideas of causes and remedies, but not all of them work equally on all people, but they do know that reparative therapy can lead some people into further depression, so pushing it as the answer to fix all people is not the answer any more than pushing Scientology is.

Accusing people of trying to take hope away from others and being on “the wrong side” isn’t going to get you anywhere because your judging the motives of others without knowing what their motives actually are. There’s a good reason why it says “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged.”

I re-examine my own life and beliefs almost daily at times. Sometimes I just have to accept that I don’t have a definitive answer, and that answer is not going to come to me today, and that the answers I find that work for myself ~now~ aren’t necessarily the answers that will work for me ~tomorrow~… Nor are they applicable to everyone, nor should they be. Those are between me and God, and my own walk though this life… and ultimately, ~only~ God is capable of knowing and judging me.

When I feel I have something to confess, I will confess it. My motives are pure - to help those young confused people that are searching for answers. To offer them hope that their situation may not be permanent. That it may not be as black and white as most would have them believe.

What are your motives?

John Marie Philomena

 

[Lynxdk]

When I feel I have something to confess, I will confess it. My motives are pure - to help those young confused people that are searching for answers. To offer them hope that their situation may not be permanent. That it may not be as black and white as most would have them believe.

What are your motives?

John Marie Philomena

The situation isn’t as black and white as most would have them believe. On the one hand many people are saying it’s Black and on the other many are saying it’s White, while many people say that it’s not that simple.

Unfortunately most of these arguments are based on what people ~feel~ to be true, rather than what ~is~ true, and the only thing that’s true about this situation right now is that no one knows for certain “the cause of homosexuality”, so to pretend otherwise and claim they have the cure, is snake oil. It’s not peoples motives I’m questioning, it’s their methods, and repariative therapy methods only work in some cases.

That’s why I like to use the Scientology example. I have known several of them and I have no doubt their motives are pure. They want to help people. Their methods, however, are very questionable, especially when viewing their group as a whole.

 

[Lynxdk]

I would like to add, just to be clear, that I do know and understand that some people are able to find relief via reparative therapy, so I’m not wholly dismissing it for ~everyone~.

As a simplified example, I would consider it like some anti-depressants. One kind works great for some people, while it makes other people worse.

 

[edwest2]

According to the Catholic Medical Association, people are not born gay.

narth.com/docs/hope.html

Also, through a non-scientific vote, gay activists had Homosexuality removed as a disorder from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual in 1973.

Peace,
Ed

 

[CHRIS_DICKSON]

I believe it ultimately comes down to either accepting or denying what our Catholic Faith teaches. We can argue until we’re blue in the face, but it all boils down to the fact that we either follow the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI and the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church, or we don’t.

 

[Lynxdk]

Ultimately, it’s God’s decision, regardless of what we believe.