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goodcatholic
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these people love having the last word with big grandiose statements that instead of glorifying God, attempt to glorify themselves.I don’t take them seriously and I’m sure they don’t take me seriously either.
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TaylorDonBarret
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There is a difference between Christians and non-Christians. To be ecumenical with Christians is to affirm the fact that we are saved through faith in Christ and Baptism. Orthodox and Protestants are in the family of God, justified and redeemed. The Church is very clear about that. To be ecumenical with non-Christians is a complete denial of the faith. The Church teaches that it is possible for non-Christians to be saved under the right circumstances. However, as a general rule, non-Christians remain in original sin, deprived of sanctifying grace, and, to be crass, “on the way to Hell.” We can build ecumenical bridges with Christians, but we cannot do the same with non-Christians. With rare exceptions, we can only have evangelistic friendships with them.
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TaylorDonBarret
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The Catechism states that Protestants have been justified and are members of God’s family. Your understanding of grace and sin is radically false. Baptism bestows sanctifying grace and that grace is not lost unless a person commits mortal sin - remember, mortal sin requires full knowledge.
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TaylorDonBarret
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You said this applied to “very many Protestants.” That is not only an uncharitable estimation, but it is also in direct contradiction to the Catechism which describes Protestants categorically as being justified and within the family of God. In case you do not know, to be justified means if you died you would go to Heaven. This is what the Catechism says about Protestants. Which doesnt leave room for the Catholic to deny sanctifying grace to “very many” of them.
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CelticWarlord
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I have no problem with people of other faiths, atheists etc. My family is filled with them.
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Eric_Hyom
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All the dogma and the laws of the Catholic Church must hang and depend on the greatest commandments. No one except our Lord Jesus can say who will or will not have eternal life. So when people say that salvation cannot happen outside the Catholic church, they take on the role of our Lord who died that our sins might be forgiven.
Abraham, Noah and Moses were never in the Catholic church, so if there is hope for them, there must be hope for others.
Abraham, Noah and Moses were never in the Catholic church, so if there is hope for them, there must be hope for others.
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Eric_Hyom
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As are most families, mine included.
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Mintaka
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Actually, all the Biblical patriarchs counted as members of the qahal or assembly. The Greek translation of qahal is ecclesia; and the English translation of ecclesia is church. And that is why the patriarchs are saints of the Church, with feastdays and everything.
That is also why ecumenical dialogue, on anything but a casual friendly basis, requires a lot of theological training.
That is also why ecumenical dialogue, on anything but a casual friendly basis, requires a lot of theological training.
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TaylorDonBarret
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Protestants ARE members of the Church. They have been justified (saved) and incorporated into the body of Christ through faith and Baptism. You will be unable to convert them if you deny this fact, because they are well aware that they are already in relationship with Jesus, and if you deny that, then you will be seen to be in error, and will not be trusted.
Pope John Paul II had no problems praying with the Archbishop of Canterbury which he did very solemnly when he went on pilgrimage to Canterbury Cathedral praying there with leaders of Christian communities from throughout the UK .
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anon90438963
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This doesn’t make sense at ALL. History has WELL documented the fact that Protestants deliberately broke away from the Catholic Church and are “protesting” it. To deny this is to deny the historical record. Catholics believe they have part of the truth (indeed, they kept some things of Catholicism, depending on the sect) but not the full deposit of the faith. Hence, they caused a breach in Jesus’ Church and must repent and repair it.
No, they are not. They are joined to the Church in an imperfect manner (a valid baptism does this) but they are not members of the Church. That’s why when they convert, they must go through a Rite of Reception, thereby placing themselves under the authority of the Church, including her disciplines and laws. This is also why they cannot receive Communion (because there is no communion) or be absolved (because the Church has no authority over them), and are not bound by the form of marriage (because they are not bound by Canon Law).
We can always explain this fact to them in a charitable manner, to anyone who would listen in good faith.
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EvangelistVictor
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So if a Protestant dies, been water baptised in the trinitarian formula, repented of their sins, believe in the creed, they going to heaven?
As with any human being, maybe. All I will say is the same thing as the Catechism, 846 through 848.
God judges according to that person’s conscience. And yet, we don’t know how contrite they could be if they fall into mortal sin, since they don’t have absolution; they don’t have the Eucharist, the pledge of eternal salvation (and which Jesus said is a requirement for eternal life). We don’t know any of that. Our Sacraments give us that assurance. We can say that they CAN be saved; it’s quite another thing to say that they WILL be saved.
So ultimately, all we can say is, “could be. We entrust them to the mercy of God.”
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And Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church have sanctifying grace .Because they had sanctifying grace, and were incorporated into the Church in that way.
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Not those in mortal sin, no.
Depends on the person, actually. Not all Catholics in communion with the Church have sanctifying grace either; those in mortal sin are called “dead members” while they are in mortal sin, but members nonetheless.
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I think we all accept that it depends on the person actually .
I was referring to the general principle .
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I think we all accept that it depends on the person actually .
I was referring to the general principle .
This statement would not be necessary because the Catholic Church possesses the assurances of salvation, namely, the Sacraments. The context of the statement is that there is hope for Protestants to find salvation, even without the Sacraments, or despite the teaching of Outside the Church there is no Salvation.
This statement is not necessary for Catholics because one who visibly dies a holy death does not give observers a “Good hope” of salvation, but an assurance that this person is going to heaven.
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