do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[Janet1983]

then how come it brought me closer??

i didn’t even know Jesus (intimately) until i came back to the RCC

how can you say you love someone you don’t know?? I’m sorry if this truth sounds harsh (many truths do) but you don’t know Jesus intimately until you know him by spending much time with Him in His Real Presence in his (one and only) Church. That is the only place that has His Presence. If you hvae never been There, you don’t know JEsus well…

I don’t believe in the real presence anymore and I actually do know Him. I was raised Catholic and I was raised into this belief.
I do not believe it anymore… Jesus Christ is a part of my life and this intimacy is not dependent upon going into a church and it does not end after digestion and after the blessing at the end of mass. I do not only live in the presence of the Lord for a maximum of 2 hours a day… I talk to Him… I praise Him, I thank Him for His blessings, I ask Him to forgive me and I can come and ask for my needs…

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t believe in the real presence anymore and I actually do know Him. I was raised Catholic and I was raised into this belief.
I do not believe it anymore… Jesus Christ is a part of my life and this intimacy is not dependent upon going into a church and it does not end after digestion and after the blessing at the end of mass. I do not only live in the presence of the Lord for a maximum of 2 hours a day… I talk to Him… I praise Him, I thank Him for His blessings, I ask Him to forgive me and I can come and ask for my needs…

Interesting. 2 hours a day. How long does a thought last? What about a prayer of praise? Pretty miniscule comparatively, don’t you think?

 

[distracted]

I don’t believe in the real presence anymore and I actually do know Him. I was raised Catholic and I was raised into this belief.
I do not believe it anymore… Jesus Christ is a part of my life and this intimacy is not dependent upon going into a church and it does not end after digestion and after the blessing at the end of mass. I do not only live in the presence of the Lord for a maximum of 2 hours a day… I talk to Him… I praise Him, I thank Him for His blessings, I ask Him to forgive me and I can come and ask for my needs…

i’ve had it happen often that i will feel i am doing very well with God… i am avoiding sin, taking care of the charitable things He requires (St mt 25:31-46) etc… Then i will enter a Church. I feel instantly way BETTER… but as i sit quietly in HIs Presence, i am shown totally different “things”… maybe you could call it my subconscious but that doesn’t seem to say it… in any case, it is both good and not so good… and yet it is all good… because it is truth…

i don’t know how to put this into words but i will say this… It is There that i find truth… absolute, complete, pure truth… (Jesus IS truth, He is the Word of God Incarnate) … i find the truth about whatever it is i think about There… whatever concerns me…

i did not say anything in my post about Believing in the Real Presence… I probably wouldn’t necessarily believe it myself… if i hadn’t been There – and spent HOURs there… i wish i could be There now… I may have to move so as to be closer to Him… hmmmm… ***There is VAST difference between believing in someone and being WITH that someone… ***

 

[distracted]

I don’t believe in the real presence …

But He believes in you…

 

[ronin67]

ALL the councils affirm the same thing: outside the CC there is no salvation.

Does this exclude non-Catholics from salvation? Nope. It just means that if they achieve salvation it is through Jesus Christ and His Church.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Yes!!! You guys are the real deal. The true church is Christ’s. You still have those hard-liner Catholics who believe the Catholic Church is the only way. How can we help them see the truth of Christ???

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[PRmerger]

Yes!!! You guys are the real deal. The true church is Christ’s. You still have those hard-liner Catholics who believe the Catholic Church is the only way. How can we help them see the truth of Christ???

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

I dunno, Ed. My vote is to take them before the Blessed Sacrament and see what happens!

Next, take them to Mass…

Expose them to spirit-filled, charitable, knowledgable Catholics…

Pray for them to have an open mind and open heart…

Answer all their questions and dispel any (and the many!) myths they may have had about Jesus’ Church…

And voila! They’ll be in RCIA in no time!

 

[ron77nyc]

Perhaps, when you read those statements YOU conclude that Jews, Hindus, Muslims cannot achieve eternal life, but I certainly don’t conclude that.

Popes Eugene and Boniface don’t leave room for any other conclusion than: if you’re not one of us your out. Please show me where in their message you can find the slightest bit of hope for pagans, Jews and Muslims.

**Again, did you know, ron, that the CC gives HONOR to non-baptized Jews–we give them their own FEAST day–December 28!! Each and every year. **

The CC teaches that there’s no hope for Jews, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, Baptists, Mormons?? Pshaw!!

The Holy Innocents are included among the old testament saints…before the preaching of the gospel.

 

[PRmerger]

Popes Eugene and Boniface don’t leave room for any other conclusion than: if you’re not one of us your out. Please show me where in their message you can find the slightest bit of hope for pagans, Jews and Muslims.

“unless before death they are joined with Her”. That seems to give one the slightest bit of hope, don’t you think?

The Holy Innocents are included among the old testament saints…before the preaching of the gospel.

Yup. They were Jews in heaven that, presumably, Popes Eugene and Boniface, honored. It seems to contradict your sentiment that they were announcing no Jews were in heaven.

 

[ron77nyc]

how can you say you love someone you don’t know?? I’m sorry if this truth sounds harsh (many truths do) but you don’t know Jesus intimately until you know him by spending much time with Him in His Real Presence in his (one and only) Church. That is the only place that has His Presence. If you hvae never been There, you don’t know JEsus well…

Protestants experience the Real Presence in worship. I have had that experience in worship and I’ve also had that experience in the Eucharist.

John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

The fact that anyone at all has come to Jesus is evidence that the Father has called them. Why not take down the wall between “us and them?”

 

[ron77nyc]

“unless before death they are joined with Her”. That seems to give one the slightest bit of hope, don’t you think?

I think we actually do agree. Popes Eugene and Boniface are talking about all Protestants, Jews, pagans, atheists, Muslims and good people who don’t want to put themselves in submission to the Pope. There is no hope for them. Very different from what John Paul II is saying.

Yup. They were Jews in heaven that, presumably, Popes Eugene and Boniface, honored. It seems to contradict your sentiment that they were announcing no Jews were in heaven.

Hebrew 11 names all those who died in faith before the time of Christ. They never heard the gospel and there wasn’t a pope or a church to belong to. Eugene, Boniface and others didn’t honor any Jews who refused to be Catholic.

** Your father did business with Hyman Roth, he respected Hyman Roth… but he never trusted Hyman Roth! ** That’s from “The Godfather” part 2.

 

[PRmerger]

I think we actually do agree. Popes Eugene and Boniface are talking about all Protestants, Jews, pagans, atheists, Muslims and good people who don’t want to put themselves in submission to the Pope. There is no hope for them.

Q.E.D.

Hebrew 11 names all those who died in faith before the time of Christ. They never heard the gospel and there wasn’t a pope or a church to belong to. Eugene, Boniface and others didn’t honor any Jews who refused to be Catholic.

Nor should we, ron. We do not honor *anyone *who refuses to be Catholic.

Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives** refuse to believe and be converted**, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he “will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,” and that he will pronounce the condemnation: “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!” (CCC 1034)

 

[ron77nyc]

Then do we agree that Eugene and Boniface don’t say the same thing that John Paul II and Benedict XVI are saying?

 

[PRmerger]

Then do we agree that Eugene and Boniface don’t say the same thing that John Paul II and Benedict XVI are saying?

No, Ron, no. :crying:

What, exactly, do you think Popes JPII and B16 are saying that contradicts E and B?

 

[ron77nyc]

What, exactly, do you think Popes JPII and B16 are saying that contradicts E and B?

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that “God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7). Certainly, the condition “inculpably ignorant” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, “Grace works in an unseen way… The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery” (GS 22).

The above states that there is hope for non-Catholics. God will judge them.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**These 2 say outside the Church you have no chance at all. **

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is **absolutely necessary for the salvation **of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

 

[PRmerger]

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
For those too who through no fault of their own do not know Christ and are not recognized as Christians, the divine plan has provided a way of salvation. As we read in the Council’s Decree Ad Gentes, we believe that “God in ways known to himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel” to the faith necessary for salvation (AG 7). Certainly, the condition “inculpably ignorant” cannot be verified nor weighed by human evaluation, but must be left to the divine judgment alone. For this reason, the Council states in the Constitution Gaudium et Spes that in the heart of every man of good will, “Grace works in an unseen way… The Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery” (GS 22).

---

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is **absolutely necessary for the salvation **of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Yes, Ron. BOTH are true. They are not contradictory. If someone is invincibly ignorant of the CC he is not culpable for his ignorance. If someone refuses to submit, he “will go into the eternal fire”.

Take your average Protestant. Could she explain the Divine Liturgy and what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass means? Does she know where in Scripture the Divine Liturgy is? Does she know all the Scriptural verses prayed during the Mass? No–she’s invincibly ignorant and therefore cannot refuse to believe it. She has no idea!

 

[ron77nyc]

Eugene and Boniface are saying that those ignorant people will not be saved unless they are joined to the Church before they die. Pius XI makes it clearer.

Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 11), Jan. 6, 1928: “The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation.”

 

[PRmerger]

Eugene and Boniface are saying that those ignorant people will not be saved unless they are joined to the Church before they die.

Possibly. If they are not invincibly ignorant, then they are culpable to the degree that they refuse to accept Christ and His Body.

There is no salvation outside the CC.

Nothing more.

Nothing less.

Invincibly ignorant–not your fault! However, you’ve been preached to, heard the Good News…God have mercy on your soul! “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

 

[ron77nyc]

Take your average Protestant. Could she explain the Divine Liturgy and what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass means? Does she know where in Scripture the Divine Liturgy is? Does she know all the Scriptural verses prayed during the Mass? No–she’s invincibly ignorant and therefore cannot refuse to believe it. She has no idea!

Many Catholics are also ignorant of the Mass and the Eucharist and no one is worried about their salvation because they belong to the Church. They are in so they’re OK as far as anyone is concerned.

Invincibly ignorant–not your fault! However, you’ve been preached to, heard the Good News…God have mercy on your soul! “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin”.( John 15:22).

This has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do with the preaching of the gospel, how we gain eternal life and how that message is getting from the Church to those inside and outside the Church. Is salvation obtained by belonging to the Catholic Church or is it by faith in Jesus?

 

[PRmerger]

Many Catholics are also ignorant of the Mass and the Eucharist and no one is worried about their salvation because they belong to the Church. They are in so they’re OK as far as anyone is concerned.

I don’t know where you get that sentiment, either, ron. According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given. (See PopeB16’s encyclical that I cited earlier, Spe Salvi).

This has nothing to do with me but it has everything to do with the preaching of the gospel, how we gain eternal life and how that message is getting from the Church to those inside and outside the Church.

You are certainly free to believe that as a Catholic, Ron.

Is salvation obtained by belonging to the Catholic Church or is it by faith in Jesus?

Guess what the answer is, ron…I know you know!

It’s…

BOTH/AND!!

 

[ronin67]

Yes, Ron. BOTH are true. They are not contradictory. If someone is invincibly ignorant of the CC he is not culpable for his ignorance. If someone refuses to submit, he “will go into the eternal fire”.

Take your average Protestant. Could she explain the Divine Liturgy and what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass means? Does she know where in Scripture the Divine Liturgy is? Does she know all the Scriptural verses prayed during the Mass? No–she’s invincibly ignorant and therefore cannot refuse to believe it. She has no idea!

The average protestant? I can asure you that the average protestant 9 times out of 10 will have a better working knowledge of the overall message of the bible when it comes to salvation through Christ by the Grace of God, then the average Catholic. I carry a bible when I go to church and to mass (Catholics look at me funny when I do this). What is truth??? This is the big reason I’m going to be a Catholic, got to get them in the bible so they not only hear the words at mass, but know them when they are spoken. Also, I will still maintain my memberships in my Baptist church and Lutheran church. To understand the Catholic experience, you have to live it, so that is what I’m going to do. So when a Catholic starts saying I don’t understand the Catholic view, I can guide him in the right direction of knowledge that I know from the Catholic experience. Lead by example. Jesus is the greatest example of this. A man or woman with the knowledge of the truth of Christ is armed with all they will ever need.

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed