do you have to be Catholic to get into Heaven??

[emseguin]

Oh and PS

An excellent read!
Everyone should read Catholic Controversy: St. Francis De Sales Defense of the Faith.

"After being repeatedly rebuffed in his attempts to re-evangelize Calvinist Protestants who would not listen to Catholic preaching for fear of reprisals, St. Francis resorted to writing leaflets and inserting them into copies of his sermons, then posting them on walls, slipping them under doors and handing them to anyone he could. Four years later almost 72,000 had returned to the ancient Catholic Faith! These tracts have been gathered together and entitled The Catholic Controversy. The works are still as fresh and powerful today and give some of the most cogent arguments against Protestantism ever penned, presenting a defense of the Catholic Faith that in some respects has never been equalled. "

JMJ

 

[ron77nyc]

It is NOT a contradiction. They have the possibility of salvation, but to the degree that they reject the teachings of the CC, accept it, or are invincibly ignorant is the degree to which their salvation lies.

Nothing more.

Nothing less!

So if Billy Graham visits the Vatican and the Pope tells him" Billy, I am the Pope, the Catholic Church is the true church and you are a schismatic. If you don’t put yourself in submission to me and all that the Church teaches you will not have eternal life."
Billy says: “I’m sorry. I can’t do that. The Lord has told me to continue doing what I’m doing. I can’t stop preaching the gospel the way I preach it.” Is Billy Graham going to be among the damned?

 

[Janet1983]

…or are invincibly ignorant…

What does that mean? Is that something like “willingly ignorant” (i.e. dumb on purpose)?

 

[ronin67]

Dear ronin 67

Yes, Christ is the Church, however there is only ONE Church.
Please explain to me how Christ would possibly want SUCH a crazy amount of division so as to have 30000 + churches? Please explain to me why there is ONE Catholic Church, and yet, Protestant Churches are flying up by the second?
I dont like the music here, so I will create my own church and play the music I want.
I dont like the minister here or how they public speak, Im going to bring a better speaker and open up a church.
Heck, if Hillsong didnt have MUSIC, well I think they would not have a ‘church’ either.

The “true” message you state that must be taught so as to be Christ’s church, well, I think THAT makes no sense, to me anyway, because each Protestant church teaches something different.

Keep searching, you are great to ask questions and speak up, God is working to lead you to the one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, that does not divide, and the gates of hell will not prevail. Pray, and pray hard about this, He will lead you if you want it.
I will pray for you tonight.

Peace and God’s blessings,

Thank you sir for the prayer. I always need all the help I can get. As stated in a earlier post, petty differences between ceremonial procedings is exactly what it is, petty and if a person decides to start his own church based on this, that is foolish (agree with you 100%). However if they change anything that is stated in the Holy Bible and break away because they don’t like what God’s inspired word says. Well, we both know they are wrong. Their are alot of crazy churches that pop up on the Protestant side, but to say they are all missing the mark, is incorrect also. Look I know the mind set of the Catholic church when it comes to the one true church, but will the Father deny someone who has accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior entrance to Heaven because they are not Catholic? Yes, the Holy Bible says Christ is the Head of the one true church. Look at it this way, just because the Catholic Church was the first Christian church formed, does that automatically make it THEE one true church??? Can other Churches fall into the catagory of the one true church? Or did God really mean that any Church that follows my divine inspired words and accepts my son as their Lord and savior, be the one true church (kind of like the mystery of the Holy Trinity, three distinct beings, yet all are God)?? You and me as mere humans that can never fully understand the extent of the Grace of God, nor should we dellusion ourselves thinking we do know God’s intent inside and out. Would the one true church make mistakes like the Catholic Church did in the early days by making people pay for forgiveness, the Spanish inquisition, etc. Yes, even Protestants did so crazy things to our fellow human beings (Salem Witch Trials, The Jehovah Witness’, Joseph Smith’s vision of deception, thus the formation of the Mormon church). We as followers of Christ Jesus thru God the Father as a whole, even sat back and watched Hitler exterminate God’s chosen people and did nothing until millions died. The bottom line; Pride of the Catholic Church refuses to accept Protestants as equals in Christ becuase they believe they are the one true church because they were the first Christian Church and Pride on the Protestant side refuses to bow down to Catholic Doctrine that doesn’t always go stricly by the scripture (Protestants still don’t get the excessive elevation of Mother Mary and some of the other practices). So how do we fix it my fellow man in Christ??? Keep the division or come to a ageement as long as the truth of the scripture is preached, per the Holy Bible? Again, the Catholic church or any Protestant church hasn’t cornered the market on salvation, Jesus owns the rights to that market (rightously/rightfully so).

Take Care and May God Bless you!

Ed

 

[ronin67]

Indeed!

And to the degree the the Baptist Church, Lutheran Church and all the Churches that preach the truth of the Bible agree with His Body, the CC, then they are united with Christ, the Head.

The Bible didn’t say the Catholic Church was the body. It said the church was the body (their you go thinking its just the Catholic Church again). You guys are so silly. Salvation through Christ and anyone who practices, preaches, and promotes this biblical truth is the true church (the body of Christ).

Take Care and God Bless!

Ed

 

[PRmerger]

What does that mean? Is that something like “willingly ignorant” (i.e. dumb on purpose)?

No, it’s not the same as “willingly ignorant”…and definitely not the same as “dumb on purpose.” Firstly, “ignorant” and “dumb” are not the same. Dumb–there’s just no hope for you. You can’t fix it. :sad_yes:
Ignorant: just get educated!

So what does “invincibly ignorant” about the CC mean? It means that:
-no one has ever taught you
-you were taught but didn’t get it
-you were taught but taught incorrectly

So, someone who says, “I know what the CC teaches and I disagree” but cannot articulate the CC’s teaching on artificial contraception, cannot cite the Scriptural verses for the CC’s teaching on the Eucharist, cannot expound on why the Divine Liturgy is a sacrifice, has no idea where the liturgical prayers are in Scripture, does not know what the ECFs taught on the papacy, cannot provide Scriptural references for the 7 sacraments…etc etc etc…IS invincibly ignorant.

On another note:
Just curious, Janet…

You posted on another thread :

Originally Posted by Janet1983
… I joined on the 26th of September 2007 and I got saved after that date… So when I joined I was still Catholic.

Just curious: what is the significance of the “1983” in your username? (I thought I read in one of your posts that the “1983” indicated the date you were “saved”).

---

 

[PRmerger]

So if Billy Graham visits the Vatican and the Pope tells him" Billy, I am the Pope, the Catholic Church is the true church and you are a schismatic. If you don’t put yourself in submission to me and all that the Church teaches you will not have eternal life."
Billy says: “I’m sorry. I can’t do that. The Lord has told me to continue doing what I’m doing. I can’t stop preaching the gospel the way I preach it.” Is Billy Graham going to be among the damned?

First of all, if the Pope told him that, it would have no authority, because he’s speaking as a man–however holy and knowledgable, and not as the vicar of Christ.

Secondly, what the CC says to Billy Graham and all others of his ilk is: Come and be wed to Christ and His Church! Come enjoy the Fullness of Truth! To the degree that you preach the true Gospel of Christ you are joined to us anyway, so let’s just make it official why don’t we!

 

[ncgolf]

Salvation through Christ and anyone who practices, preaches, and promotes this biblical truth is the true church (the body of Christ).

Take Care and God Bless!

Ed

So lets get into our time machine and go back to, let’s say the year 140. How was this bibilical truth promoted? What version of the Bible did those early Christinans use?

We know they preached Christ but how was a biblical truth promoted?

 

[2nd_Adam]

First of all, if the Pope told him that, it would have no authority, because he’s speaking as a man–however holy and knowledgable, and not as the vicar of Christ.

Secondly, what the CC says to Billy Graham and all others of his ilk is: Come and be wed to Christ and His Church! Come enjoy the Fullness of Truth! To the degree that you preach the true Gospel of Christ you are joined to us anyway, so let’s just make it official why don’t we!

I hope you all know that Billy Graham has had a historic relationship with various popes.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[PRmerger]

The Bible didn’t say the Catholic Church was the body. It said the church was the body (their you go thinking its just the Catholic Church again). You guys are so silly. Salvation through Christ and anyone who practices, preaches, and promotes this biblical truth is the true church (the body of Christ).

Take Care and God Bless!

Ed

Yes, indeed! And what Church was that that existed in the 5th century, let’s say? Did they believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Sure did! Did they have bishops and priests? Sure did! Did they have a pope? Sure did! Did they have the Divine Liturgy? Sure did!

Does the church you belong to resemble the church of the 5th century, Ed?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are making a very Catholic statement above, Ed. Christ is the Head. The CC is His Body. Outside of Christ (Head and Body), there is no salvation. We cannot decapitate Christ. He’s a total package–head and body.

You are making a very Christian statement above. Christ is the Head. The invisible church is His true body. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. We cannot decapitate Christ. He’s a total package–head and body. All those united to Christ by faith by the Spirit is part of the universal (catholic) body of Christ. - Revised by 2nd Adam

 

[ronin67]

So lets get into our time machine and go back to, let’s say the year 140. How was this bibilical truth promoted? What version of the Bible did those early Christinans use?

We know they preached Christ but how was a biblical truth promoted?

Answer; The Catholic Church. That was tough. Again, no denying the Catholic Church was first, but first doesn’t mean the only true church. Many thanks for the Catholic church in getting the ball rolling and spreading the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. However, since then, many other denominations on the Protestant side have done the same thing as the Catholic church did back then. So are the Protestants who are teaching the same truth that the Catholic church teaches any less saved then those in the Catholic church? NO! Again any church that teaches and preaches the truth of the Gospels is the true church. Catholics and Protestants united for Christ. WOW, that would be great!

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes, indeed! And what Church was that that existed in the 5th century, let’s say? Did they believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Sure did! Did they have bishops and priests? Sure did! Did they have a pope? Sure did! Did they have the Divine Liturgy? Sure did!

Does the church you belong to resemble the church of the 5th century, Ed?

Here’s my challege to you. The Magestrium teaches that membership in the Catholic Church does not mean that you will end up in Heaven. It also acknowledges other Christians from various non-Catholic communites will be in Heaven. Who is your true brother in Christ, those that will be in Heaven from different non-Catholic communities, or Catholics that will not end up in Heaven (goats in the Catholic Church)? Please answer and explain your reasoning. God the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, regardless of being a member of a particular Christian community.

 

[ron77nyc]

First of all, if the Pope told him that, it would have no authority, because he’s speaking as a man–however holy and knowledgable, and not as the vicar of Christ.

These are the Vicars of Christ making infallible statements:

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock;…”

Secondly, what the CC says to Billy Graham and all others of his ilk is: Come and be wed to Christ and His Church! Come enjoy the Fullness of Truth! To the degree that you preach the true Gospel of Christ you are joined to us anyway, so let’s just make it official why don’t we!

**Here is what the Church says today: **catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

“The Church in this world is the sacrament of salvation, the sign and the instrument of the communion of God and men” (CCC 780).

"Many people misunderstand the nature of this teaching.

Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be damned."

Is catholic.com saying that Popes Boniface, Benedict XV and Eugene speaking infallibly are radical traditionalists? Notice when they are quoting popes, saints and doctors they omit Boniface, Eugene and Benedict XV.

 

[PRmerger]

You are making a very Christian statement above. Christ is the Head. The invisible church is His true body. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. We cannot decapitate Christ. He’s a total package–head and body. All those united to Christ by faith by the Spirit is part of the universal (catholic) body of Christ. - Revised by 2nd Adam

Amen!

Once you are ONE FLESH with Christ, then you are part of His Body, the Church.

 

[PRmerger]

Catholics and Protestants united for Christ. WOW, that would be great!

Take Care and May God Bless!

Ed

That, indeed, would be great, Ed. And to the degree that they preach the same things, they are united.

But, is the Eucharist truly the body/blood/soul and divinity of Christ, or not? Is the Pope the vicar of Christ or not? Is it ok to divorce and re-marry, or not? On all these things, and much, much more, we are NOT united, and the Truth needs to be preached on it. Either the CC teaches the Truth, or it doesn’t.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s my challege to you. The Magestrium teaches that membership in the Catholic Church does not mean that you will end up in Heaven. It also acknowledges other Christians from various non-Catholic communites will be in Heaven.

No, Adam. It says that Christians from various non-Catholic communities have the possibility of eternal life. It has never said that a non-Catholic is definitively in heaven. (Ok, except for the Jewish Holy Martyrs, and the Old Testament prophets–acknowledged!)

Who is your true brother in Christ, those that will be in Heaven from different non-Catholic communities, or Catholics that will not end up in Heaven (goats in the Catholic Church)? Please answer and explain your reasoning. God the Holy Spirit unites us to Christ, regardless of being a member of a particular Christian community.

Anyone who is baptized is my true brother in Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

That, indeed, would be great, Ed. And to the degree that they preach the same things, they are united.

But, is the Eucharist truly the body/blood/soul and divinity of Christ, or not? Is the Pope the vicar of Christ or not? Is it ok to divorce and re-marry, or not? On all these things, and much, much more, we are NOT united, and the Truth needs to be preached on it. Either the CC teaches the Truth, or it doesn’t.

If I am united to Christ by faith through the work of the Spirit, does it matter if I do not agree with the Catholic view of the Eucharist, or receive the Pope as the vicar of Christ, or have a different view on divorce? These are not gospel issues according to the Scriptures. I cannot believe in what I don’t believe. Do I believe in another gospel (Gal 1)?

 

[ronin67]

Yes, indeed! And what Church was that that existed in the 5th century, let’s say? Did they believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? Sure did! Did they have bishops and priests? Sure did! Did they have a pope? Sure did! Did they have the Divine Liturgy? Sure did!

Does the church you belong to resemble the church of the 5th century, Ed?

No silly, this is the 21st Century. We streamlined it. We have the truth of Salvation though Jesus Christ. I believe that was 30-33 A.D. Hold on, wait a second, that was before the 5th century and what is that, this was Jesus himself. I believe the truth of Christ thru the scripture trumps all. I believe you are a good man, but hear this. Christ Jesus is the reason for unity, not division due to human pride not relenting for denominational differences. The Catholic Church was first and I do thank God the Catholic church was formed. Without the Catholic Church the message of Christ wouldn’t have made to all the corners of the earth. However, the Protestant side was the checks and balances that stood up to human pride and corruption on the very human side of the Catholic church. You know if you look at it, God does have a very unique way of humbling human pride. Just when you think you know it all, you take the fall that pride gives. I believe this is what happened to the Catholic church. Look no one on this group will ever change my mind on this. The true church or body of Christ is the church that teaches that Jesus Christ was the savior of this world and those who accept him as their savior are saved by the grace that God our loving Father extended to his sin born creation. I fall short of God’s glory quite often, but you know what, I may be a mess, but I’m God’s mess and Christ is my savior. I will continue to pray for unity in the Christian community. Maybe one day our pride will allow us to recognize each other as true children of God no matter what denomination we serve in as long as the truth of the Holy Bible is adhered to.

Take Care and May the Peace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with us all.

Ed

 

[2nd_Adam]

No, Adam. It says that Christians from various non-Catholic communities have the possibility of eternal life. It has never said that a non-Catholic is definitively in heaven. (Ok, except for the Jewish Holy Martyrs, and the Old Testament prophets–acknowledged!)

Anyone who is baptized is my true brother in Christ.

This statement can be revised to fit Catholic Christians too based on Catholic theology.

“It says that Christians from various Catholic communities have the possibility of eternal life. It has never said that being a member of the Catholic Church is definitively a ticket to heaven”. - Revised by Adam