S
SusanneT
Guest
Definitely going down the way of ‘anything goes’ Anglicanism isn’t the way forward. Whereas I believe a return to traditionalism is.
Do You Know How Bad the Dechristianization of Europe Really Is?
- Status
S
Saxum
Guest
Definitely. The problem is that the Bishops first need to admit that they screwed up by changing a successful formula. They copied the Anglicans but Catholics didn’t want to change. That’s why they left in the 70s. Stats don’t lie. Everybody was happy with the Latin, the devotions and the beautiful churches. The church flourished because we kept it real. If there’s any priests or bishops reading this then listen up: give the Catholics what they need, which is strong catehesis and decent worship.
Last edited:
K
KJW5551
Guest
Again though, the people might say they are Christian, but they are not practicing their faith. Something like 7% of Russians go to church regularly.
www.pewforum.org
Russians Return to Religion, But Not to Church
Between 1991 and 2008, the share of Russian adults identifying as Orthodox Christian rose from 31% to 72%, according to data from the International Social Survey Programme. During the same period, the share of Russia’s population that does not identify with any religion dropped from 61% to 18%.
www.pewforum.org
B
Brendan_64
Guest
It’s similar here in the UK. And when you do get the likes of politicians who are open about their Christian faith they can end up being forced out of their positions (such as ex-Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron) or branded as an extremist (such as Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg).
As a Christian in the UK, I think you are generally regarded as a bit nutty. I think you are tolerated as long as you are seen as a ‘liberal’ Christian who accepts the secular line on gay marriage, contraception, abortion and the likes.
But I think we should not get disheartened by this. Benedict XVI wrote about the Church getting smaller in the future. It is not about numbers. Keep in mind John 15:18, “If the world hate you, know ye that it hath hated me before you.”
Last edited:
G
goout
Guest
Catholics, remember that the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.
From the beginning, we have struggled to live in Him, we have struggled to live and proclaim the Gospel.
Don’t be knocked off-mission by struggle.
(these are the exhortations of JP2, who live among two of the most ungodly cultures to ever exist. and still lived a life of hope, faith, and charity. )
From the beginning, we have struggled to live in Him, we have struggled to live and proclaim the Gospel.
Don’t be knocked off-mission by struggle.
Do not be afraid, do not be downcast.
(these are the exhortations of JP2, who live among two of the most ungodly cultures to ever exist. and still lived a life of hope, faith, and charity. )
Last edited:
S
Saxum
Guest
This is definitely true. I’ve been called eccentric because I attend Mass. Christians are regarded as suspect. They only tolerate us because of political correctness but scratch the surface and the anti-Catholic bias comes tumbling out.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
I think you’re accepted by our secular society so long as you are a ‘modern’ Christian who buys into the secular agenda. I don’t think they mind you believing in God, just so long as this doesn’t conflict with secular values. Personally, I think this may get worse before it will get better.
Although I do wonder what the effect would be if someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg ended up as the British Prime Minister. A solid Catholic who is not afraid to speak up, attends Latin Mass and is a family man. I wonder?
Although I do wonder what the effect would be if someone like Jacob Rees-Mogg ended up as the British Prime Minister. A solid Catholic who is not afraid to speak up, attends Latin Mass and is a family man. I wonder?
Last edited:
J
Jas31784
Guest
What annoying people and thriving on naive? Nah that’s not cool.
B
Brendan_64
Guest
That is an interesting perspective, I’d never looked at it like that.
S
Saxum
Guest
Look at the wider society. They’re totally lost. I mean things are crazy! The Catholic community are part of this wider society. Loads of Catholics left the Church and embraced the world. Maybe it would’ve been worse without Vatican II and John Paul II. I’ve blamed Vatican II for EVERYTHING that happened in the last 50 years. But now I think it might have been worse without Vatican II. Don’t forget that the paedophile priest crisis began before the Council and the liturgy began changing before the Council. So maybe the Council put the brakes on by trying to combat things. Just a thought.
A
ATraveller
Guest
Quantity over quality.
That’s not what Jesus wants.
What He actually wants is real discipleship. Disciples who are truly repentant and truly seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. Who seek to live holy lives. Who seek to serve Him.
In a decade or so, any church/parish/congregation that looks ‘good’ at this moment but never properly nourished the flock will face a crisis because no spiritual transformation occurred and it will wither.
That’s not what Jesus wants.
What He actually wants is real discipleship. Disciples who are truly repentant and truly seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. Who seek to live holy lives. Who seek to serve Him.
In a decade or so, any church/parish/congregation that looks ‘good’ at this moment but never properly nourished the flock will face a crisis because no spiritual transformation occurred and it will wither.
Last edited:
A
anon64350612
Guest
Go to Europe and chat with any random person you meet from any country. It is rare to find a person who is devout in the Catholic faith or any faith. Take a tour of the Vatican or San Marco Square and your tour guide will lead you through all the Catholic art and architecture with thinly veiled contempt for the church. The statistics do not surprise me.
A
anon64350612
Guest
Legion of Mary Peregrinatio Pro Christo. Google it? We already have that in the Catholic Church. We just don’t do it.
C
Carmel
Guest
Quite a few Anglican Priests became Catholic Priests and now some parishes have married priests. The Anglican priests have the Ordinariate .
A
anikins
Guest
Yup. And that number is increasing steadily. We have more and more married priests in the Church every year.
Last edited:
I am French. I have seen a quick collapse of the Church since I was child, and I am only 30.
Church which are empty and merge
numbers of catechized children which fall. And uninteresting cathechism
Practicing Catholics who goes secular (premarital cohabitation, etc etc…)
more than 50 % of births out of wedlock.
religion completely banned from normal life and Christians values as a taboo, mostly in sex and life issues…
I need a time to realized that…
And contrary to what some of you said in this post, the relatovely hight birthrate in France (1,9 children per women) in comparaison of the rest of europe, are not the fact a Traditional Catholics families who are very very few, anocdectical, but thanks to the births politics which help families (maternity leave, help to paid daycare…), and immigration. But the rate slow down because of recent negative changes in politic for families and the fall of the number of women in childbearing years…
And Italy is still a Catholic contry, but a dying one. So in the next year Catholicism will plumge to.
Church which are empty and merge
numbers of catechized children which fall. And uninteresting cathechism
Practicing Catholics who goes secular (premarital cohabitation, etc etc…)
more than 50 % of births out of wedlock.
religion completely banned from normal life and Christians values as a taboo, mostly in sex and life issues…
I need a time to realized that…
And contrary to what some of you said in this post, the relatovely hight birthrate in France (1,9 children per women) in comparaison of the rest of europe, are not the fact a Traditional Catholics families who are very very few, anocdectical, but thanks to the births politics which help families (maternity leave, help to paid daycare…), and immigration. But the rate slow down because of recent negative changes in politic for families and the fall of the number of women in childbearing years…
And Italy is still a Catholic contry, but a dying one. So in the next year Catholicism will plumge to.
F
FollowChrist34
Guest
Most of Western Europe (excepting Southern Europe) split ways with Christianity as a central cultural institution after the Renaissance. Or I think at least by the 18th century the influence of the Church was weakening. Maybe I exaggerate but not by much. The Enlightenment was about man, not God. Voltaire, all that. Diderot. 1776, US. This is old news. 
They killed God, in a nutshell.
They killed God, in a nutshell.
Last edited:
J
JamalChristophr
Guest
Thanks for sharing your experience, Anicette. It’s good to have people from Europe. We need a more balanced perspective on things, etc.
C
commenter
Guest
To rebound off this post, it’s pretty clear that traditional Catholics or Catholicism in general isn’t driving up the national birthrate to 1.9, since the birthrate among non-religious Frenchmen is 1.9. Same for nominal Catholics; their birthrate is already at 2.0; we don’t need to add the birthrates of other groups, traditional Catholics or otherwise, to reach that number.
What interests us is not the French birthrate in itself, which as you correctly point out is being artificially propped up by generous social benefits, but the fact that there is a burgeoning segment of the French Catholic population that is having children, and many of them—keeping pace with, and often even exceeding, the Muslim birthrate. While 120,000 is indeed a small number relatively speaking, it is not insignificant, especially if the majority of these Catholics found families and have four or five children on average. Without these small but committed communities and families, we would have good reason to be pessimistic about France’s future, but at the moment there’s still a glimmer of hope. As for the rest of Europe, my knowledge is too sketchy to say anything definite, so hopefully other posters will continue to contribute and shed light on the situation in their own countries.
[/quote]
Your factual information and observations are useful. Your reluctance to comment on areas where your knowledge is “too sketchy” is unfamiliar to most of us, especially American Catholics online. We gladly comment, pontificate in fact, on areas we have no knowledge whatsoever; which for most of us, that means every place outside the USA.
What interests us is not the French birthrate in itself, which as you correctly point out is being artificially propped up by generous social benefits, but the fact that there is a burgeoning segment of the French Catholic population that is having children, and many of them—keeping pace with, and often even exceeding, the Muslim birthrate. While 120,000 is indeed a small number relatively speaking, it is not insignificant, especially if the majority of these Catholics found families and have four or five children on average. Without these small but committed communities and families, we would have good reason to be pessimistic about France’s future, but at the moment there’s still a glimmer of hope. As for the rest of Europe, my knowledge is too sketchy to say anything definite, so hopefully other posters will continue to contribute and shed light on the situation in their own countries.
[/quote]
Your factual information and observations are useful. Your reluctance to comment on areas where your knowledge is “too sketchy” is unfamiliar to most of us, especially American Catholics online. We gladly comment, pontificate in fact, on areas we have no knowledge whatsoever; which for most of us, that means every place outside the USA.
C
commenter
Guest
We have to avoid two temptations here: to credit the Council with everything good that has happened, or to blame the Council for every bad thing that happened. Many fruitful discussions have been sidetracked that way. We are living in the world in which the Council did happen.Saxum:
That is an interesting perspective, I’d never looked at it like that.
I don’t live in Europe, but even the less bad situation in the US terrifies me. I would never have predicted how heavily my relatives - 3rd generation from Ireland - would have been so deeply absorbed by the secular media.
What I see are small subgroups within the Church flourishing in the Faith. We have a diocesan Latin Mass community, but there are many other devout Catholics who only go to the OF Masses. Both groups overlap with prolifers, with homeschoolers, and with those who set up a new, traditional Catholic high school, and a new, traditional order of sisters, now in formation. We benefit enormously from a Catholic radio station, independent but compatible with the diocese, again with the same people as in the other groups.
But we are an intense minority with the shrinking, liberal Catholic community, which dominates most institutions. The home schoolers are almost the only ones having baptisms in some parishes. These subgroups are the hope for slowing dechristianization.
Last edited:
- Status