Do you pity the damned?

[HabemusFrancis]

I do. I have read all of what Hell is and like, not only the fire and demons, but the utter hatred,cruelty and complete lack of love that permeates the place.

I actually pity the damned and cant help but think Id like to help them in some way, even if it is impossible and indeed forbidden by God.

There is no living human being who is in more dire straits and more abhorred than the damned. Is it wrong to feel this way?

 

[GLam8833]

The sobering FACT of eternal punishment
Heb. 6:2 does NOT eliminate the need for
perfect contrition for our sins, WHILE WE
STILL LIVE. It is NOT written in stone that
we will be damned every time we sin
mortally, once CONVICTION sets in, repent
and confess. “tho hand join in hand, the
wicked will not be guiltless” Prov. 11:21

 

[Crusaderbear]

Pity them? Yes. But pray for those who may still be saved!

 

[po18guy]

I think that in a certain sense, pity is misplaced, as they received their reward in this life. It is an exchange for which they will have eternity to ponder the wisdom of. They will pity themselves, as hell is all negativity and consists of a complete lack of goodness or of the positive. Conversely, we must marvel at God’s perfect justice. Any lack of justice would render God’s mercy meaningless. From a position in heaven, as a soul enjoys the beatific vision, there will be no sadness or regret, but rather only satisfaction that all has been made eternally right.

 

[St_Francis]

I have a tendency to worry, and I now try to pray instead of fretting.

Perhaps whenever you pity the damned, you could pray for those suffering in the same way in Purgatory, or for those on earth who are headed in the direction of Hell?

 

[Crusaderbear]

Since we mortals don’t know who is in heaven or hell, we should pray for all souls departed. The Lord will redirect our prayers accordingly. Pitying those damned to hell is a reminder to us to avoid their fate at all costs. Lest we forget that hell is always a possibility.

 

[dshix]

I think that in a certain sense, pity is misplaced, as they received their reward in this life. It is an exchange for which they will have eternity to ponder the wisdom of. They will pity themselves, as hell is all negativity and consists of a complete lack of goodness or of the positive. Conversely, we must marvel at God’s perfect justice. Any lack of justice would render God’s mercy meaningless. From a position in heaven, as a soul enjoys the beatific vision, there will be no sadness or regret, but rather only satisfaction that all has been made eternally right.

Perhaps whenever you pity the damned, you could pray for those suffering in the same way in Purgatory, or for those on earth who are headed in the direction of Hell?

The damned are beyond pity or mercy, because once they have attained Hell, they are in complete rejection of God, and there is no further chance for their redemption. Far better to save our empathy for those in Purgatory.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Those in hell were not put there against their will. They chose hell. If they choose to pity themselves for all eternity, that is enough pity they deserve.

 

[o_mlly]

Since we mortals don’t know who is in heaven or hell, we should pray for all souls departed. The Lord will redirect our prayers accordingly. Pitying those damned to hell is a reminder to us to avoid their fate at all costs. Lest we forget that hell is always a possibility.

Through a special gift of the Church we know some who are in heaven. The Church does not teach that anyone is in hell. Therefore, we pray for the repose (re-positioning) of the souls of all the departed, that is from purgatory to heaven.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

**I would if they really existed. **

To throw someone into the eternal fire, which is not quenched and have the worm gnawing their innards is so incredibly cruel, that words are insufficient to describe it. If God would be someone as you describe it, he would be evil incarnate. To punish some poor Catholic with eternal torture for missing mass for some frivolous reason - and not repenting - is incredibly capricious, cruel and evil.

There is a very strange expression used frequently: “he or she is saved”. Saved from what or from whom? God, of course. He is the police, the prosecutor, the jailer and the torturer. (There is no defender allowed.) And, of course this is “perfect” justice and infinite “mercy”…

If God would manifest himself and would declare that you (the apologists) are correct in his description, it would be the most horrible day of my life. Fortunately that is highly improbable. No being (or Being) could be as cruel as you describe God. And, of course there are the nincompoops who say that the damned “chose” to be damned. I can just visualize some people who keep banging on the door of hell and scream: “Open it! We want to get in, and we demand to be tortured forever and ever!!!” Yeah, right!

 

[dshix]

**I would if they really existed. **

To throw someone into the eternal fire, which is not quenched and have the worm gnawing their innards is so incredibly cruel, that words are insufficient to describe it. If God would be someone as you describe it, he would be evil incarnate. To punish some poor Catholic with eternal torture for missing mass for some frivolous reason - and not repenting - is incredibly capricious, cruel and evil.

There is a very strange expression used frequently: “he or she is saved”. Saved from what or from whom? God, of course. He is the police, the prosecutor, the jailer and the torturer. (There is no defender allowed.) And, of course this is “perfect” justice and infinite “mercy”…

If God would manifest himself and would declare that you (the apologists) are correct in his description, it would be the most horrible day of my life. Fortunately that is highly improbable. No being (or Being) could be as cruel as you describe God.

This point of view is not consistent with Catholic belief. Why would God create Hell if it has no purpose? Do you believe that Satan is not in Hell? If you believe that Satan is damned, why wouldn’t you consider it possible for humans also to go to Hell.

Remember that God possesses all the virtues perfectly. He is infinitely merciful, but He is also perfectly just. Should a soul choose to reject God, it would be unjust for God to force that soul to be present before Him in Heaven.

And, of course there are the nincompoops who say that the damned “chose” to be damned. I can just visualize some people who keep banging on the door of hell and scream: “Open it! We want to get in, and we demand to be tortured forever and ever!!!” Yeah, right!

Amusingly, what you declare to be something that only “nincompoops” would say is exactly the truth. Souls who have rejected God would suffer more by being in the presence of God for one instant than by being eternally separated from Him.

This is because God is perfect, and it is extremely painful for any person who has a single blemish on his soul to be in God’s presence. This is why Purgatory is a great mercy: souls there get the opportunity to wash away all sins and imperfections so that they may eventually live in the presence of God with perfect happiness. The damned, on the contrary, don’t want to be cleansed, and don’t want to repent, and don’t want to love God.

 

[GLam8833]

May I ADD that it is satan who uses the Law
of God to punish us!! "the sting of Death is
sin, the power of sin is the Law"1 Cor. 15:56
And who is the one who holds the “power of
death”==>the devil!! See Heb. 2:14

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

This point of view is not consistent with Catholic belief.

I am aware of that.

Why would God create Hell if it has no purpose?

Even the concept of hell contradicts love.

Do you believe that Satan is not in Hell?

Not even Catholics believe that, so why should I? They believe that Satan roams the world freely and tries to corrupt us - according to the church.

Remember that God possesses all the virtues perfectly. He is infinitely merciful, but He is also perfectly just.

Nonsense. Mercy and justice contradict each other. To be both just and merciful at the same time is exactly like a “married bachelor”, a logical contradiction.

Formally:
To be just means to mete out a punishment which is exactly, precise commensurate to a deed.
To be merciful means to mete out a punishment which is less than the just sentence would be.

Should a soul choose to reject God, it would be unjust for God to force that soul to be present before Him in Heaven.

Who “rejects” God? Missing a mass for a Catholic does not constitute “rejection” of God. Having IVF does not mean that one “rejects” God. Having sex outside marriage does not mean that one “rejects” God. The only way to reject God would be to get into his presence; to be exposed to whatever heaven is supposed to be, and THEN declare: “Let me get out of here!”. That would be the only real rejection. But even that would not mean demanding eternal torture and suffering.

Amusingly, what you declare to be something that only “nincompoops” would say is exactly the truth.

Do you have a video showing some people banging on the door of Hell, and demanding to be tortured eternally? Put in on YouTube, if you have one.

Obviously I am seriously lacking “perfection”. But I would not condemn even my worst enemy to eternal torture. That is unimaginable cruelty. Not be in the presence of God is exactly what happens here on Earth. Admittedly it is not paradise, but it is not torture either.

If one would be admitted into heaven, and THEN she would declare that she does not want to be there, then the loving sentence would be to exile the purpose to some place where there is NONE of the alleged heavenly pleasure, but no torture either.

A loving God would not be like a spoiled brat who demands that everyone keep on getting on their knees, declare their “unworthiness” and begging for forgiveness for their lack of “perfection”. A loving God would forgive unconditionally, would actively display his love by helping the ones in need. But the real love would be to bypass this valley of tears, and create everyone directly into heaven.

Obviously that is NOT what the Catholic belief says. But it is rational, logical and loving. Remember that many Catholics leave the church, because they cannot stomach the concept of hell.

 

[Contarini]

I do. I have read all of what Hell is and like, not only the fire and demons, but the utter hatred,cruelty and complete lack of love that permeates the place.

I actually pity the damned and cant help but think Id like to help them in some way, even if it is impossible and indeed forbidden by God.

There is no living human being who is in more dire straits and more abhorred than the damned. Is it wrong to feel this way?

C. S. Lewis has a very good discussion of this in The Great Divorce. He distinguishes between the “action of pity” which he says will continue and the “passion of pity” which will not. He argues (or his spokesman George Macdonald does–rather cheeky of Lewis since MacDonald was a universalist in real life) that the “passion of pity” is a means by which the wicked blackmail the righteous. As people move further and further away from God, they become more and more nearly nothing, so that there is no real person there to pity at all.

Another very interesting imaginative take on the question is the “King’s Cross” scene in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

 

[3DOCTORS]

I am aware of that.

Who “rejects” God? Missing a mass for a Catholic does not constitute “rejection” of God. Having IVF does not mean that one “rejects” God. Having sex outside marriage does not mean that one “rejects” God. The only way to reject God would be to get into his presence; to be exposed to whatever heaven is supposed to be, and THEN declare: “Let me get out of here!”. That would be the only real rejection. But even that would not mean demanding eternal torture and suffering.

Such an assumption is completely subjective, and most likely revealing of what Church teachings you disagree with most strongly.

If we know that an action (or avoidance of one) is desired by the beloved, and we dig in our heels, insist upon the “right” to our way, and refuse to consider the beloved’s desire, is that not showing rejection and contempt for the beloved? Does it not threaten the bond with the beloved?

When the expectations and penalties are made clear, how can we cry “foul!”? If we do something that will weaken the loving bond, it’s like the person who is aware that drunk driving is dangerous, but states “I’m going to get drunk now, and then get in my car and drive down the highway, but it’s okay because I don’t intend to kill anybody.” When a crash happens and someone’s dead, it doesn’t matter what falsehood the drunk driver chooses to believe. The victim is still dead.

Obviously I am seriously lacking “perfection”. But I would not condemn even my worst enemy to eternal torture. That is unimaginable cruelty. Not be in the presence of God is exactly what happens here on Earth. Admittedly it is not paradise, but it is not torture either.

If one would be admitted into heaven, and THEN she would declare that she does not want to be there, then the loving sentence would be to exile the purpose to some place where there is NONE of the alleged heavenly pleasure, but no torture either.

Sounds like the old concept of Limbo, or like escaping a prison sentence by way of an insanity defense and being sent to a mental institution instead. Wishing such an option was available does show a tenderheartedness in a way. But such an option would be redundant - if a person isn’t subjectively guilty, he or she will go to Purgatory and have a chance to be healed and purified. I wonder if you’ve ever had the chance to read about Divine Mercy and if that would help you feel less inclined to perceive God as cruel?

A loving God would not be like a spoiled brat who demands that everyone keep on getting on their knees, declare their “unworthiness” and begging for forgiveness for their lack of “perfection”. A loving God would forgive unconditionally, would actively display his love by helping the ones in need. But the real love would be to bypass this valley of tears, and create everyone directly into heaven.

Jesus Christ made Himself vulnerable to us sinful human beings even to the point of allowing us to nail Him to the Cross. How is that by any stretch an act of a spoiled brat?

Obviously that is NOT what the Catholic belief says. But it is rational, logical and loving. Remember that many Catholics leave the church, because they cannot stomach the concept of hell.

Yes, that is one of many reasons. Another is that they wish to write their own moral code. Or they have a deep spiritual wound. And many more reasons. I think sometimes when a person runs up against a Church teaching they are strongly put off by, they need to do some soul searching and prayer - even ask God to help understand - and to help accept.

And be patient, as these big questions can take time to resolve. Just try to be teachable. Try to question your own assumptions as much as you question the Church. Just try it. What have you got to lose but your angry feelings and resentments? Try to take the worry about Hell and turn it into a determination to help people get to Heaven. We can’t read God’s mind, but we can learn to trust.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

If we know that an action (or avoidance of one) is desired by the beloved, and we dig in our heels, insist upon the “right” to our way, and refuse to consider the beloved’s desire, is that not showing rejection and contempt for the beloved? Does it not threaten the bond with the beloved?

But we don’t KNOW. And ever if we knew, the loving God would forgive unconditionally.

When the expectations and penalties are made clear, how can we cry “foul!”?

They are NOT clear. You are under the miscomprehension that non-Catholics and non-believers are under some obligation to accept what the church teaches. The teaching about a finite “misdeed” and infinite punishment and a loving deity are logically inconsistent. Maybe you are able to exercise “doublethink” but we are not. An illogical and irrational teaching cannot be accepted. Moreover, not just the non-Catholics and the unbelievers reject it, a growing number of Catholics reject it, too. That should tell you something.

Jesus Christ made Himself vulnerable to us sinful human beings even to the point of allowing us to nail Him to the Cross. How is that by any stretch an act of a spoiled brat?

A loving God would not need a sacrifice to forgive the trespasses. This is an obvious leftover from the pagan religions.

And be patient, as these big questions can take time to resolve.

2000 years was not enough?

No matter how you twist it, a finite “disobedience” CANNOT merit an infinite punishment. And a loving God would create everyone into heaven. The rule of “Do not pass GO, do not collect 200 dollars” only exists in Monopoly.

 

[Bradski]

I do. I have read all of what Hell is and like, not only the fire and demons, but the utter hatred,cruelty and complete lack of love that permeates the place.

I actually pity the damned and cant help but think Id like to help them in some way, even if it is impossible and indeed forbidden by God.

There is no living human being who is in more dire straits and more abhorred than the damned. Is it wrong to feel this way?

So a cage appears in Times Square. Nobody seems to know where it came from. It just appeared. And in the cage is a woman. She appears to be in tremendous pain, as if tormented by demons. As if being burnt.

Everyone is trying desperately to help her. There appears to be no way into the cage. Police and emergency workers arrive. They all try everything they can to free her, to no avail. Her screams are unbearable to hear. People turn away. They can’t bear to listen. People are beside themselves with frustration. It goes on for almost an hour. The whole of the square is cleared. There is no sound in the centre of NY except for the almost animal noises the tortured soul in the cage is making. It echoes down the empty streets – empty because no-one can help and no-one can bear to listen.

It continues for hours. The government is called in. The best minds in the country try to work out how to help this poor woman. The news goes international. Offers of help pour in but as the days go on, every suggestion fails. They cannot even move the cage.

Weeks pass and the whole of New York is deserted. Nobody can bring themselves to live anywhere near the continuous torment that this woman is enduring. Her husband has gone literally mad and some of her family and friends have even committed suicide because they can’t live with the thought of what this woman is going through.

Then one day a priest asks the authorities for a meeting. He knows what is happening. He knows what the woman is going through and why. He tells the authorities that she is being punished. But most think he is mad. What person could deserve what this woman is suffering? What crime could possible deserve such a punishment?

‘But she turned away from God,’ says the priest. It seems that the woman’s mother spent her whole life caring for the poor, for the disadvantaged. She sacrificed her life for others. She was an example to all. And one night she was killed driving home to see her grandchildren by a drunken driver running a red light.

The woman was beside herself. She went to her church and blasphemed God. The priest actually had it on tape:

“Haec credam a deo pio, a deo justo, a deo scito? Cruciatus in crucem. Tuus in terra servus, nuntius fui; officium perfeci. Cruciatus in crucem – eas in crucem.”

“She would not repent so she is being punished for it. You cannot help her”.

And the question is asked: ‘But if we cannot help her, how long must she endure this agony?’

‘Forever’, says the priest. ‘For all eternity. It will never end’.

With thanks to Aaron Sorkin, writer of The West Wing, for the Latin. youtube.com/watch?v=fYcMk3AJKLk

 

[vz71]

You wrote so well of a description of hell.

I kept waiting for the part where they find a way to open the cage but discover the woman will not leave it.
She has totally rejected God and accepts her eternal plight over admission of her own sin.

That she cannot, and will not, accept forgiveness.

But it was just a story written by someone that does not have an understanding of hell.

 

[Vera_Ljuba]

You wrote so well of a description of hell.

I kept waiting for the part where they find a way to open the cage but discover the woman will not leave it.
She has totally rejected God and accepts her eternal plight over admission of her own sin.

That she cannot, and will not, accept forgiveness.

But it was just a story written by someone that does not have an understanding of hell.

Interesting conclusion. However it contradicts the principle that hell is the WORST thing imaginable. Clearly, if she would not leave the cage, and thus get rid of her suffering, than that suffering is NOT the WORST thing imaginable. She prefers - therefore enjoys her suffering compared to the freedom and not suffering any more.

The logical contradiction is plainly visible. If she chooses to stay in hell, then leaving hell would be worse than staying. So hell is NOT the worst thing imaginable.

 

[vz71]

Interesting conclusion. However it contradicts the principle that hell is the WORST thing imaginable. Clearly, if she would not leave the cage, and thus get rid of her suffering, than that suffering is NOT the WORST thing imaginable. She prefers - therefore enjoys her suffering compared to the freedom and not suffering any more.

The logical contradiction is plainly visible. If she chooses to stay in hell, then leaving hell would be worse than staying. So hell is NOT the worst thing imaginable.

Your assuming a reason for not leaving the cage that we have no evidence for.
Perhaps she will not leave the cage because she belongs there.