Do you think the US should invade Iran?

[Brad]

jdnation:

Actually I didn’t write that, it was an article from here…

whatreallyhappened.com/thebadnews.html

I’m not American, but I can say that in Canada and in France and India, people are fretting over America going to fight another war for wrong reasons. We don’t buy the ‘for democracy’ reason, in fact it simply seems like a last minute excuse now that every other one has fallen apart.

From what I know it appears clear that this war was a sham for Israel’s sake. Plus for those of you wanting to invade Iran, you might want to consider that in that event a draft might come into effect. If I may speak for myself, I’m afraid of George Bush, I also believe that your recent election was stolen… again. For a President with one of the lowest approval ratings, I don’t see how he could’ve won the popular vote, plus there are all those DieBold scandals to consider and I fear another invalid election is taking place in Iraq. From what I hear, it is not really democracy that the muslims are afraid of, but rather that with such Americanization, their strict religious values (however faulty we see them) will be replaced with the immorality occuring in American society now.

Added to that I don’t buy George Bush being a Christian, and I fear that he will take Christianity down with him. It seems to be all rhetoric, and his abortion and homosexual stands are certainly questionable. It seems that your government wants war rather than negotiation. To what end I have no idea but the Iraq war seems a catalyst for bigger things to come. All Bush needs is another excuse, perhaps another terrorist incident, to institute a draft.

Whatever your sources, you are being poorly informed.

George Bush has a high approval rating prior to the election.

He won the popular vote, with no credible accounts of fraud, by well over 3 million votes.

In a democracy, it is up to the people how moral the country will become. In America, people used to make the right choices overall - now they do not. “Americanization” is not Iraq’s problem. Unfetterred freedom (license) could be but I don’t think this would be allowed for many years.

There is no reason to believe George Bush is not a Christian.

Bush had a legitimate reason to go to war with Afghanistan and Iraq. The people in both countries are now glad he did. It is too bad those that have never known what it is like to live in tyranny want to rain on their parade - a parade their ancestors never saw and they have waited a lifetime for.

 

[jdnation]

Please take a look at these sites:

wherethetruthhurts.org/tractsbooksread.php?w=59

bushrevealed.com/

 

[Brad]

jdnation:

Please take a look at these sites:

wherethetruthhurts.org/tractsbooksread.php?w=59

bushrevealed.com/

I looked at the second site. Any site that is completely one-sided, as if the only news regarding Bush is how he is anti-Christian, cannot gain any credibility. I’d be careful as to judging someone based on such a skewed analysis. Looks like a front for an anti-Bush group.

 

[jdnation]

Well then I’d ask you to please read all 4 pages of the first link and consider them. Pro-Life sites are one-sided too, but I’m sure you have no problem disagreeing. Just because it is against something is no argument to ignore it.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

Actually I didn’t write that, it was an article from here…

whatreallyhappened.com/thebadnews.html

I’m not American, but I can say that in Canada and in France and India, people are fretting over America going to fight another war for wrong reasons. We don’t buy the ‘for democracy’ reason, in fact it simply seems like a last minute excuse now that every other one has fallen apart.

That was part of the bigger picture long before we went to war. That is what the left here claims at least, that this group in the White House had the spread of democracy idea before WMD was ever even talked about. So I don’t think you are right about this statement.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

From what I know it appears clear that this war was a sham for Israel’s sake. .

I won’t even acknowledge this statement because it is so far from reality

jdnation:

Plus for those of you wanting to invade Iran, you might want to consider that in that event a draft might come into effect.

We, US posters, didn’t start this thread, rather it was started by a person from England I believe. We don’t want to go to war with Iran. The title was to instigate fighting on the forums, IMHO. There will not be a draft here, and the topic was only used to stir up trouble during our elections by the Democrats here. We have many that volunteer here, and there would be no need for a draft.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

Added to that I don’t buy George Bush being a Christian, and I fear that he will take Christianity down with him. It seems to be all rhetoric, and his abortion and homosexual stands are certainly questionable. It seems that your government wants war rather than negotiation.

I don’t think you can be the judge of this. He seems perfectly Christian to me. Have you ever listened to him? Try it sometime. His stands on abortion are much stronger than most world leaders. What’s you real problem. Be more specific.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

From what I hear, it is not really democracy that the muslims are afraid of, but rather that with such Americanization, their strict religious values (however faulty we see them) will be replaced with the immorality occuring in American society now.

You are naive if you think the insurgents are religious, or that we as Americans are more immoral than any other people in this world. It only takes reading the Old Testament or reading the European papers to know that we haven’t cornered the market on immorality. Check the thread on the prostitution in Germany problem that we are reading about in their papers.

 

[Brad]

jdnation:

Well then I’d ask you to please read all 4 pages of the first link and consider them. Pro-Life sites are one-sided too, but I’m sure you have no problem disagreeing. Just because it is against something is no argument to ignore it.

The difference is pro-life sites do not single out 1 person and generate bad news only about him.

 

[Brad]

jdnation:

Well then I’d ask you to please read all 4 pages of the first link and consider them. Pro-Life sites are one-sided too, but I’m sure you have no problem disagreeing. Just because it is against something is no argument to ignore it.

I read the first link. It misses the point on George Bush regarding judicial nominees to the Supreme Court. Bush did say he does not have a litmus test. He never said “pro-life” litmus test, just “litmus test.” This means he will consider judges based on their ability to interpret the constitution, not based on 1 personal belief. A judge that is pro-life might also be pro-slavery. You cannot appoint a judge based on just one of his believes. That would be ludicrous.

Yet, Kerry said he would do exactly that - he would only appoint judges that were opposed to reversing Roe V. Wade.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

If I may speak for myself, I'm afraid of George Bush, I also believe that your recent election was stolen... again. For a President with one of the lowest approval ratings,

Now, did you see the map of the voters of the US? It is mostly a red map. There are only some blue strongholds for the Democrats. I live in a blue state but a red county. We had a fair election, but you have been listening to the likes of Michael Moore and the poor losing Democrats that cry unfair, like spoiled school children. They lost fair and sqaure because we don’t want our country to lose sight of the values we were founded on. It seems that many in Europe just need to complain about us and so be it, but don’t think you know about us from a stupid movie or a few blogs or from some left wing nuts.

 

[jdnation]

Well your arguments sound resonable, though I’m still not convinced about Bush. Aside from the judges, you fail to address the other issues. Listening to him tells me nothing, Hitler also spoke lots of similar rhetoric, however we can clearly see it is not the case. I feel Bush is only playing to both sides. The so called ‘left wing’ (not talking about these two I put up) sites you aim your criticisms at usually were never left wing and in fact many detested both candidates. I’ve found your media to be extremely hand in glove with your administration (And although I have seen Farenheit 9/11 in Chicago I’ve learnt how dubious Michael Moore can be, but I’ve known about such things before he came on the scene). I found more reliable news online from the foreign press and other web blogs telling me the truth about the absence of WMD etc. long before the invasion, that the American media ignored (though much later apologized for it) It’s a wonder how foreign press and little run blogs knew what the well funded American media failed to. It’s highly suspicious.

Though as far as comparing America’s morality to the rest of the world, it was not to infer the the American people, well at least the vast majority of you are… but the secularism your democracy creates has certainly not been helpful, and in issues like homosexuality etc in minorities certainly causes problems and at times even overpowers the majority, some for good reason (slavery or women’s rights for example), but mostly all I’ve been seeing is bad. It’s the same in Canada. It is a testable fact as other countries become more westernized, things as pornography, militant feminism, gay rights etc begin to come in and erode it. It is that democracy unfortunately allows this. Not saying democracy is bad or evil, this is simply the unfortunate side effect. And since these people have been living under theocratic rule, but despite what we think they’ve always seen their way as right and are afraid of this change for exactly those reasons.

You may be under the impression that most of these people are happy, but seeing both sides, I’d have to disagree with the picture that your media reports to you. As much as you genuinely feel about spreading democracy and freedom and liberty, there was in the end no real lawful grounds for the invasion of Iraq and it is illegal. The UN, despite being packs of dogs themselves, has increasingly voted against your nation. And your government is seen as arrogant, rogue and yes, I’ll say it again, completely under Israel’s influence. As well for nations with the largest nuclear arsenals it is also hypocritical to demand anything of other nations that seek them to deter you. The threat of terrorism seems an excuse at your expense for geopolitical power. And for a country having issues with their own elections it’s also bitter irony.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

I’ve found your media to be extremely hand in glove with your administration .

This is contrary to most opinion.

jdnation:

I found more reliable news online from the foreign press and other web blogs telling me the truth about the absence of WMD etc. long before the invasion, that the American media ignored (though much later apologized for it.

jdnation:

Every country, every leader, the UN, all thought Saddam had WMD so let’s skip over that misconception you have. It is well documented.

jdnation:

It’s a wonder how foreign press and little run blogs knew what the well funded American media failed to. It’s highly suspicious .

What is suspicious to me is that you think our media could be biased, but not yours. Imagine.

jdnation:

Though as far as comparing America’s morality to the rest of the world, it was not to infer the the American people, well at least the vast majority of you are… but the secularism your democracy creates has certainly not been helpful, .

I am stopping you there because we do not corner the market on immorality. Let’s talk about the Muslim nations that treat women as slaves, use people up and disprespect them in their holy cities. You are being naive. Did the Baathists not terrorize their own people with rape rooms, mass graves, stoning women, human shredders? All in their holy cities. I guess that was Western influence? No, just pure evil. Western influence doesn’t cause evil, it is Satan and original sin. You are very naive if you think your country is gettting all it’s evil from democracy. Does that then relieve you of your sin? Blame in all on America. Hogwash!!!

I am fairly sick of people not admitting their country on their posts. It is not fun to be in the dark. You throw daggars, but hide where you are from. Why.

jdnation:

And since these people have been living under theocratic rule, but despite what we think they’ve always seen their way as right and are afraid of this change for exactly those reasons. .

This is racism on your part, pure and simple.

jdnation:

You may be under the impression that most of these people are happy, but seeing both sides, I’d have to disagree with the picture that your media reports to you…

So the men I saw dancing in the street were not happy, the children that put the ballots in the bins for their parents weren’t smiling, the women weren’t in their best clothes to show their pride in their country? And I am the naive one?

jdnation:

And your government is seen as arrogant, rogue and yes, I’ll say it again, completely under Israel’s influence…

So it all boils down to more hatred on your part? And you call us arrogant and rogue. No, I am afraid that you need to search you own soul.

 

[aimee]

Fitz:

This is contrary to most opinion. What is suspicious to me is that you think our media could be biased, but not yours. Imagine.
I am stopping you there because we do not corner the market on immorality. Let’s talk about the Muslim nations that treat women as slaves, use people up and disprespect them in their holy cities. You are being naive. Did the Baathists not terrorize their own people with rape rooms, mass graves, stoning women, human shredders? All in their holy cities. I guess that was Western influence? No, just pure evil. Western influence doesn’t cause evil, it is Satan and original sin. You are very naive if you think your country is gettting all it’s evil from democracy. Does that then relieve you of your sin? Blame in all on America. Hogwash!!!

I am fairly sick of people not admitting their country on their posts. It is not fun to be in the dark. You throw daggars, but hide where you are from. Why.

This is racism on your part, pure and simple.

So the men I saw dancing in the street were not happy, the children that put the ballots in the bins for their parents weren’t smiling, the women weren’t in their best clothes to show their pride in their country? And I am the naive one? So it all boils down to more hatred on your part? And you call us arrogant and rogue. No, I am afraid that you need to search you own soul.

Excellant post… I totally agree.
Also, This person or persons need to pray …they certainly have issues.

 

[Fitz]

aimee:

Excellant post… I totally agree.
Also, This person or persons need to pray …they certainly have issues.

Yes I agree. Let us say a prayer for all filled with racism and hatred of the Iraqi people. They are willing to hate so much that they need to villify America for bringing elections to a people that have been oppressed by their own government for a long time and tortured by their government.

 

[jdnation]

Media bias is typical on all sides. The fact is that for some reason your media got the facts wrong! Despite what was in the foreign press, and the foreign press turned out to be right! I’m not saying this because I was always biased, like many people when this all started, I had no idea what was going on. Obviously someone had to be correct. Much after the invasion when the reports were coming in on missing WMD etc. which everyone else reported much before the invasion, it turned out the American Media was wrong. And it is highly suspicious considering they would obviously be keeping their eye on teh foreign press as well. The American media isn’t some two-bit operation, it’s has highly competent reporters and pulitzer prize winning journalists and financed well. However most of these people had their reports tossed aside and spoke out about it. I mean you can argue about the media supporting the troops but this was before there were any troops there to begin with! Your media failed to voice what was going on to keep in line with your administration and after it was too late they even publicly apologized for it!

If you’re going to denounce the tortures used by Baathist militants and torture, why don’t you also bring up the US tortures? Or about UN troops raping and being involved in the sex trade, trafficing etc? It is highly hypocritical! YOu go into the country and do teh same thing. According to prisoners under both Saddam and the US, they claimed the US were worse! Point out where I mentioned tortures etc. were due to America or democracy. I merely said secular society’s promotion of sex and other values. Where did I say torture and rape were due to Western influence? please don’t put words in my mouth.

I thoguht I’d already mentioned where I came from. I was born and lived in India till I was a pre teen and showed I lived in Canada when I said we have the same situation here with concern to immorality. My country’s Prime Minister stayed out of the war for the reason that the excuses the US made for invading Iraq were dubious and contradicted by other nations and not supported by the UN. Though we still supplied you with some staff for medical etc. And we were there with you in Afghanistan. And we were right to stay out of the Iraq war. The war in Iraq was not promoted because of spreading democracy, we were never given that impression at all.

And you claim I’m being racist? Where? Please point out how you interpreted what I said there as being racist…

As for the images of happy Iraquis, I remember pictures of others welcoming troops etc. but these appear as propaganda. Even the images you saw of people tearing down the Statue of Saddam Hussein were carefully filmed to make it seem like there were large crowds. The reason the American troops there are having trouble with ‘insurgents’ is not because these are a mere number of small rabble rousers. The Americans are fighting the entire country! Aside from images you see of smiling Iraquis in Baghdad and other major cities protected by Americans the remainder of the country is in smoking ruins. And this is where the other majority of the people lie.

There is no hatred in me for the American people. Your country had some of the largest Peace marches ever! Millions in New York, LA etc. marched against this war alongside peace marches around the world including many here in Canada. This is practically unprecedented in history, it’s clear that Americans do not support the war. Of course now that you’re forced into it, there’s no choice but to sort it out or leave whenever you’ve had enough. It’s pointless to argue now. However despite all this your government is already preparing for another war, and mostly using the same reasons about haboring terrorists, Nuclear Weapons Programs etc. The same for going to invade Iraq which didn’t turn out to be true (Proven by your own 9/11 Commission and CIA), so obviously as in any case of false accusations, the remainder of the world is going to watch what you claim more closely and under more scrutiny. I’m relaying the facts that your government since it went ahead without UN approval is by definition then a rogue nation (although who’s really gonna do anything about it?) because it defied them. And despite all that has been levelled against they still arrogantly justify the war. The rest of the world sees this and therefore feel that way about your administration. Not YOU, but your corrupt elected officials.

 

[jdnation]

Thank you for the prayers, and I pray for you too, because it seems that your country is being deliberately sabotaged from within and I’m afraid of what might happen to you. It is obvious the majority of Americans did not want this war. It is unfortunate that you had to choose between Bush and Kerry. If you’d asked me prior to teh election who I’d vote for if I was American, seeing that both of them favored the course of war, since Bush claimed to be pro-life and against homosexuality and Kerry clearly wasn’t, I would have reluctantly said Bush, being the lesser of two evils whom we may give the benefit of the doubt. However there shouldn’t be such a dilemma and now I think Bush’s record of being this way really just seems a front, something politicians do in order to keep voters. Well who knows… maybe, just maybe Bush might turn around and actually do what he claims, he doesn’t have another election to worry about, so you can pray and hold out hope… that’s about all I can say. Iraq and the rest of the Middle East are said to be punished by God in the end, but let’s hope the US isn’t the catalyst for that. Because you must well know by now that the fate of the US does affect the rest of the world for economical and military reasons. Many of these countries invest in you, such as China etc and you need them as much as they need you, especially now. Therefore you ought to at least listen to what they say and then decide what is the right course. Don’t let unright men steer you wrong.

 

[gilliam]

I think you will find the Bush is pretty transparent. He says what he thinks and does what he says.

 

[Fitz]

jdnation:

Thank you for the prayers, and I pray for you too, because it seems that your country is being deliberately sabotaged from within and I’m afraid of what might happen to you. It is obvious the majority of Americans did not want this war. It is unfortunate that you had to choose between Bush and Kerry. If you’d asked me prior to teh election who I’d vote for if I was American, seeing that both of them favored the course of war, since Bush claimed to be pro-life and against homosexuality and Kerry clearly wasn’t, I would have reluctantly said Bush, being the lesser of two evils whom we may give the benefit of the doubt. However there shouldn’t be such a dilemma and now I think Bush’s record of being this way really just seems a front, something politicians do in order to keep voters. Well who knows… maybe, just maybe Bush might turn around and actually do what he claims, he doesn’t have another election to worry about, so you can pray and hold out hope… that’s about all I can say. Iraq and the rest of the Middle East are said to be punished by God in the end, but let’s hope the US isn’t the catalyst for that. Because you must well know by now that the fate of the US does affect the rest of the world for economical and military reasons. Many of these countries invest in you, such as China etc and you need them as much as they need you, especially now. Therefore you ought to at least listen to what they say and then decide what is the right course. Don’t let unright men steer you wrong.

You posts ramble and repeat items that I already answered so I am not going to respond. Obviously you know best jd and just want to vent. I for one have had enough of the rambling. For a person that thinks the joy of the election was stages media, I will pray because you don’t know propaganda from reality. My God Bless you. For others that wish to respond to you, make you posts shorter and to the point.

 

[jdnation]

Sorry to ‘ramble,’ so you seem pretty satisfied with the recent news. Hopefully it’s a good sign, but let’s not get too excited or it will be deja vu all over again…

“United States officials were surprised and heartened today at the size of turnout in South Vietnam’s presidential election despite a Vietcong terrorist campaign to disrupt the voting. According to reports from Saigon, 83 percent of the 5.85 million registered voters cast their ballots yesterday. Many of them risked reprisals threatened by the Vietcong. A successful election has long been seen as the keystone in President Johnson’s policy of encouraging the growth of constitutional processes in South Vietnam.”

– Peter Grose, ‘U.S. Encouraged by Vietnam Vote,’ The New York Times, Sept 4, 1967, page 2.