Do You Trust American Bishops?

[Buckeyejoe]

I live in the Clevealnd area, the Bishop is Anthony Pilla,

I just read his stance on whether or not to give communion to politicians supporting abortion (John Kerry etc.) I have read his statement twice…I’m still not sure if he is condeming or condoning this practice of withholding the Eucharist.

He’s a typical American Bishop, speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Clutters up a simple newsletter with mumbo jumbo language…

Why can’t he just come out and say in plain English what needs to be said!!! Make it clear! I’m not the only one, the news media aparently was confused and reported, what Pilla claims as a wrong interpretation.

I give Pilla poor grades as a Bishop. Cleveland needs real leadership in these periouls times.

Thanks

 

[eikke]

the majority of american bishops, like the majority of bishops in most places and eras, are time-servers. their entire mentality can be summed up as, “if the church does disintegrate, it won’t be until after our generation.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Hebrews 14:17

Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

St. Ignatius of Antioch (AD 50-110):

Be ye subject to the bishop, and to one another, as Jesus Christ to the Father, according to the flesh, and the apostles to Christ, and to the Father, and to the Spirit (Ltr to Magnesians, Ch. XIII)

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. (Ltr to the Smyraeans, 8)

The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles or the Didache, AD 100:

Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops … do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers.

St. Cyprian of Carthage, AD 250

the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers … this, then, is founded on the divine law (To the Lasped,Epistle 26/33)

“Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church.” (To Florentius,Epistle 68[66]:8)

Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:

There is a very notable distinction between the members of the Church; for there are some who rule and some who obey; some who teach and some who are taught. … That part of the Church which teaches is called the Teaching Church. … That part of the Church which is taught is called the Learning Church, or the Church Taught. , The Teaching Church is composed of all the Bishops, with the Roman Pontiff at their head, be they dispersed throughout the world or assembled together in Council. … The teaching power in the Church is possessed by the Pope and the Bishops, and, dependent on them, by the other sacred ministers. … we are obliged under pain of eternal damnation to hear the Teaching Church; for Jesus Christ has said to the Pastors of His Church, in the persons of the Apostles: "He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you, despises Me. …

After the Pope, those who by Divine appointment are to be most venerated in the Church are the Bishops … The Bishops are the pastors of the faithful; placed by the Holy Ghost to rule the Church of God in the Sees entrusted to them, in dependence on the Roman Pontiff … all the faithful, ecclesiastic and lay, should be united heart and soul with their Bishop, who is in favor and communion with the Apostolic See. … Each one of the faithful, both ecclesiastic and lay, should revere, love, and honor his own Bishop and render him obedience in all that regards the care of souls and the spiritual government of the diocese"

Do you venerate your Bishop or do you despise him? If the latter, are you manifesting your opinion “through the institutions established by the Church … with reverence and charity toward those who, by reason of their office, represent the person of Christ” (Lumen Gentium, 37)?

If you find yourselves among those that despise your Bishop, I suggest you presume, as does the Church, *good faith, unless proven otherwise by competent Church authority, *while at the same time manifesting your opinion in accord with this protocol: cuf.org/protocol.htm

 

[JNB]

The Bishops are a mixed lot, though I have alot of respect for Cardinal George for one, but still, too many try to be “pastoral” or politicians rather than sheppards or leaders such as the late Cardinal McIntyre of the LA archdiocese and the late Cardinal Krol of the Phildelphia archdiocese.

But if one looks back in the last 40 years, much of the damage done to the church in terms of liturgy, theology and the falling away of t he faithful can be laid at the feet of the Bishops and the inabaility or unwillingness of the Vatican to discipline them. All one needs to do is look at the Netherlands for example of de facto schism and see how much damage that can do, sinc ethe church in the Netherlands is now basically destroyed.

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

St. John Chrysostom:

The floors of hell are paved with the skulls of bishops.

 

[fix]

Hebrews 14:17
St. Ignatius of Antioch (AD 50-110):
The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles or the Didache, AD 100:
St. Cyprian of Carthage, AD 250
Catechism of Pope St. Pius X:
Do you venerate your Bishop or do you despise him? If the latter, are you manifesting your opinion “through the institutions established by the Church … with reverence and charity toward those who, by reason of their office, represent the person of Christ” (Lumen Gentium, 37)?

If you find yourselves among those that despise your Bishop, I suggest you presume, as does the Church, good faith, unless proven otherwise by competent Church authority, while at the same time manifesting your opinion in accord with this protocol: cuf.org/protocol.htm

Great quotes. Here are some others:

*When there is an imminent danger for the Faith, Prelates must be questioned, even publicly, by their subjects." *

–St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica II, II, q. 33, a. 4

​

*“But though we, or an angel from Heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.” *–Galatians 1:8

**

*“Better that only a few Catholics should be left, staunch and sincere in their religion, than that they should, remaining many, desire as it were, to be in collusion with the Church’s enemies and in conformity with the open foes of our faith.” *

–St. Peter Canisius (1521-1597)​

 

[ricatholic]

I voted no to the trust question, but I see few bishops who dispute or teach anything contrary to what comes from Rome.

They even see to generally act like all the rest, they even get promoted like Law did recently.

Peace

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Fix,

Certainly prelates must be questioned. That’s why I linked to a protocol which allows one to do so in accordance with *Lumen Gentium. *St. Thomas does not contend we despise our bishops.

St. Gregory the Great asserted, “obedience is rightly preferred to sacrifices, because by sacrifices another’s body is slain whereas by obedience we slay our own will.” (Moral. xxxv)

St. Gregory the Great also asserts that “evil should never be done out of obedience: yet sometimes for the sake of obedience we should lay aside the good we are doing,” and “obedience should be practiced, not out of servile fear, but from a sense of charity, not through fear of punishment, but through love of justice.” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIa, 104, 3)

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, in regard to obedience to the law, he states, “it is not competent for everyone to expound what is useful and what is not useful.” (Summa Theologica, II, 96, 6). Instead, he asserts “those alone can do this who are in authority, and who, on account of such like cases, have the power to dispense from the laws.” Dispensation is certainly appropriate in times where it would be perilous to obey the law: “If, however, the peril be so sudden as not to allow of the delay involved by referring the matter to authority, the mere necessity brings with it a dispensation, since necessity knows no law.” Nevertheless, “if it be a matter of doubt, he must either act according to the letter of the law, or consult those in power.”

The 15th century monk Thomas Kempis in his book Imitation of Christ wrote of obedience and subjection as follows:

It is a very great thing to live in obedience, to be under a superior, and not to be free to do as we please.

It is much safer to obey than to govern.

Many live under obedience more from necessity than from love, and such are discontented and easily complain. They cannot attain freedom of mind unless they willingly and heartily put themselves under obedience for the love of God.

Go wherever you will, but you will still find no rest except in humble subjection under the government of a superior.

 

[Joe65436]

Cyprian of Carthage, Epistles LXVIII(6), To Florentius Pupianus, On Calumniators-6

“Bees have a king, and cattle a leader, and they keep faith to him. Robbers obey their chief with an obedience full of humility. How much more simple and better than you are the brute cattle and dumb animals, and robbers, although bloody, and raging among swords and weapons! The chief among them is acknowledged and feared, whom no divine judgment has appointed, but on whom an abandoned faction and a guilty band have agreed.”

 

[misericordie]

deogratias:

Some one recently asked me if I trusted our American Catholic Bishops to provide us with the true teachins of Christ.

I thought this a provocative question and one that might make for a good poll and discussion.

You can just take the poll or feel free to elaborate on your answser

I trust about four Bishops in the USA to teach of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as the VATICAN teaches it, and all Faithful to the Magisterium CATHOLIC doctrine. Not catholic Doctrine mixed with elements of Protestantism.
The Archbishops, and Bishops I would TRUST ina ll that is CATHOLIC, in their office of teachers are: Archbishop Charles Chaput (my favorite), The Bishop of Lincoln, Nebraska, the CURRENT Bishop of St. Louis(Burke), the Bishop of Colorado Springs, and the NEW Bishop of Richmond, Virginia(DiLorenzo) EXCELLENT!!

 

[DuMaurier]

I don’t trust American Bishops at all. Too many are in collusion with the gay subculture which has emerged in the church. For a long time I didn’t know what irked me about the Church in North America but after the revealing statistics coming out of the sexual abuse crises I found out; there are too many homosexual priests.

Think about it, how many “manly” priests do you see around lately? I mean strong, powerful, father figure types. Most I see are rather effeminate looking and sound rather effeminate too. The exception being priests which come from overseas, particularly the third world.

No, I don’t think American bishops are good judges of character at all.

 

[misericordie]

DuMaurier:

I don’t trust American Bishops at all. Too many are in collusion with the gay subculture which has emerged in the church. For a long time I didn’t know what irked me about the Church in North America but after the revealing statistics coming out of the sexual abuse crises I found out; there are too many homosexual priests.

Think about it, how many “manly” priests do you see around lately? I mean strong, powerful, father figure types. Most I see are rather effeminate looking and sound rather effeminate too. The exception being priests which come from overseas, particularly the third world.

No, I don’t think American bishops are good judges of character at all.

YES SO TRUE!!! Where are the Manly priests? Why are so many effeminate? My Pastor sure is NOT effeminate. No one wants to hear (with all respect) a sissyish priest, religious brother. One reason I loved Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ is because the Christ there was manly, and not portrayed as effeminate.

 

[Salvo]

I’ve been going through these threads, and I have to say I really admire the charitable attitude here on the subject. I think what we have now is the same situation we have had throughout history; the church hierarchy facing rampant moral dilemmas. The ones that rank high on the list are 1. the obvious sex scandals plaguing the church (nothing new here historically speaking) and 2. the immense secular support for the crime of abortion.

I know it is very cliche to liken the latter to the holocaust of WW II, but I will do it for the purposes of this particular thread. The German (and other occupied) Bishops had a choice to make: preach the gospel and enforce the Vatican’s teaching on the treatment of the Jews or quietly submit to popular sentiment and pressure from the government. Unfortunately, the latter option was far too often the choice taken by the German and other bishoips of occupied Europe. And saddly, I think most American bishops are opting to take this route as well. Rather than enforce church doctrine, many lean towards a quiet and tacit detente with pro-Abortion politicians.

To answer the original question: individually, yes. But statistically, no, I wouldn’t trust them at this point.

 

[Edwin1961]

Buckeyejoe:

I live in the Clevealnd area, the Bishop is Anthony Pilla,

I just read his stance on whether or not to give communion to politicians supporting abortion (John Kerry etc.) I have read his statement twice…I’m still not sure if he is condeming or condoning this practice of withholding the Eucharist.

He’s a typical American Bishop, speaks out of both sides of his mouth. Clutters up a simple newsletter with mumbo jumbo language…

Why can’t he just come out and say in plain English what needs to be said!!! Make it clear! I’m not the only one, the news media aparently was confused and reported, what Pilla claims as a wrong interpretation.

I give Pilla poor grades as a Bishop. Cleveland needs real leadership in these periouls times.

Thanks

Before going back to my baptismal rite (Byzantine), I was going with the Roman rite for 37 years. I was not impressed with Bishop Pilla. My brother is a Diocesian Priest and is unsure about Bishop Pilla (but he has to follow what his Bishop tells him).
I heard it said that Bishop Pilla, from a poll taken sometime ago, that stated that Bishop Pilla is the second most influencial person in Cleveland.
What a thought!

However, as a Byzantine Catholic, I like our bishop. (I mostly heard him being called ‘Bishop John’…don’t know his last name). He seems very reserved and orthodox in teachings. That’s all I can say about him at this point.

go with God!
Edwin

 

[rfk]

Salvo:

Rather than enforce church doctrine, many lean towards a quiet and tacit detente with pro-Abortion politicians.

Due to the historical relationship many ethic Catholic groups had with the Democratic party, I believe there is some truth to this statement. I do believe that many of the current generation of Bishops grew up in Democratic families and have voted that way, and thus have a reluctance to take Democrats to task.

But I need to counter argue this point, because of the widespread slander that been spread against Pope Pius XII and the Church:

Salvo:

The German (and other occupied) Bishops had a choice to make: preach the gospel and enforce the Vatican’s teaching on the treatment of the Jews or quietly submit to popular sentiment and pressure from the government.

Bottom line, the Catholic Church saved approximately 900,000 Jews during WWII. A number of Catholic Bishops and Cardinals were named “Righteous Gentiles” by the state of Israel after the war.

It would be a mistake to look only at public pronouncements because every time the Church spoke out publicly, there were reprisals where priests, bishops, and more Jews were sent to the camps. Instead look at what was done surreptiously.

Pope Pius XII ordered all Convents and Monasteries opened to hide Jews, and ordered the Bishops, in writing, to save lives “by all means possible”. Most European Bishops acted honorably. Yesterday, I was watching EWTN Bookmark’s review of Sr. Margherita Marchione’s new book on Pius XII. She said she had photographs of roughly 20 women holding infants in their arms in the Pope’s personal quarters. The Pope actually gave up his own bedroom to serve as a nursery for those babies!

There is a lot of documentation of this. You could start at the Catholic League: catholicleague.org/pius/dalinframe.htm

 

[Salvo]

rfk:

But I need to counter argue this point, because of the widespread slander that been spread against Pope Pius XII and the Church:

Hello Bob,

I’m actually one of the strongets advocates of the Vatican’s behaviour during the holocaust. It is well known that the church saved hundreds of thousands of people and that they were adamant about opposing the Nazi policies, specifically towards the Jews (as well as to the church which was also heavily persecuted itself). But this does not dismiss the fact that many German and other Nazi sympathising bishops did litte or nothing to save the Jews, or even their own clergy.

Thus, this is a perfect analogy for the present day abortion situation. While the church/Vatican says one things, the bishops tacitly support or do nothing to oppose the evil yet legal policies of the state. I for one expect more from those who supposedly dedicate their lives to the church. Don’t you?

 

[Confiteor]

Salvo:

Hello Bob,

I’m actually one of the strongets advocates of the Vatican’s behaviour during the holocaust. It is well known that the church saved hundreds of thousands of people and that they were adamant about opposing the Nazi policies, specifically towards the Jews (as well as to the church which was also heavily persecuted itself). But this does not dismiss the fact that many German and other Nazi sympathising bishops did litte or nothing to save the Jews, or even their own clergy.

Thus, this is a perfect analogy for the present day abortion situation. While the church/Vatican says one things, the bishops tacitly support or do nothing to oppose the evil yet legal policies of the state. I for one expect more from those who supposedly dedicate their lives to the church. Don’t you you?

I think this is a meaningful analogy though it is a painful one to admit. Recently, we’ve seen a spate of books on the topic of Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust. No one accuses him of being responsible in a direct sense for the death of 6 million Jews, but his detractors point out he did not speak out promptly, firmly or loudly enough against it. Ditto the American bishops (and all of us Catholics) and the 40 million babies lost to abortion in the past 30 years.

 

[Salvo]

Confiteor agreed. And while the church was under direct threat to its very existence under the Nazi regime, no excuse as such can be made for the American bishops. What dire consequence could they expect if they were to put together a press release tomorrow saying, “Abortion is STILL murder. All those who directly support murder through legislation are commiting a grave sin and therefore not in good grace for communion and should not approach the communion rail.”

Obvously, there are scarcely any “communion rails” left in the US, but I’m trying to make a point…

 

[rfk]

Salvo:

I’m actually one of the strongets advocates of the Vatican’s behaviour during the holocaust.

OK, good. There has been so much widespread slander of Pius XII that I get a little touchy about defending him. Glad we agree on him.

Salvo:

But this does not dismiss the fact that many German and other Nazi sympathising bishops did litte or nothing to save the Jews, or even their own clergy.

The German Bishops were not as outspoken as the Dutch Bishops, for example. The Dutch Bishops were very vocal. Unfortunately, their vocal protest caused Dutch Jews to actually have the highest executation rate from the reprisals. I hope we can agree in the WWII situation, it is not public protest that is the measuring stick, but rather, what did they do behind the scenes to save lives.

If you have good evidence that the German Bishops tacitly supported the Holocaust, or did nothing to resist it behind the scenes, then I would agree also with you in your analogy. My history is not strong enough to know precisely what the German Bishop’s record was in that time frame.

German Bishops aside, and getting back to the topic at hand, do I wish the American Bishops were outspoken against abortion? Of course.

Salvo:

Thus, this is a perfect analogy for the present day abortion situation. While the church/Vatican says one things, the bishops tacitly support or do nothing to oppose the evil yet legal policies of the state. I for one expect more from those who supposedly dedicate their lives to the church. Don’t you?

In the interests of charity,however, I would also like to point out that the Bishops have consistently opposed abortion for 30+ years. If you search the usccb.org site for the words abortion OR euthanasia OR “pro-life”, you get over 1800 documents. Do I wish they were stronger about it? Absolutely. Do I wish they would publicly spank Kerry? Yabba-dabba-doo. But to be fair, I do trust that all of our Bishops believe abortion is evil.

I’ll tell you what I would like. I’d like to hear about abortion and contraception and homosexuality from the pulpit during regular Sunday Masses.

 

[oremus]

davy39:

As a whole, I’m not sure. We have a new bishop, Leonard Blair, from the Detroit area, but he hasn’t been here long, so it’s too early to tell. But he did walk into a real firestorm when he took over. I sort of felt sorry for him. I think the bishops as a whole, disregard the Vatican too much. They should follow the rules to the letter. If they did, we’d all be better off. Pray for them and for more vocations.

Davy, He did walk into a firestorm, didn’t he. Our family prays for him everyday. He celebrated mass at one of our parishes for the rural life century farm awards, and his homily was very orthodox. I looked over at my husband and he gave a thumbs up. My son met him at one of the dinners they give for teens and young adults thinking about a vocation, and he said he wants to have a mass for homeschoolers. That is quite a change from Bishop Hoffman who wanted kids to attend only the Catholic schools (the Catholic schools around here teach Catholic Lite.)

Bishop Blair has to contend with all those Toledo AmChuch types. I lived in Toledo for eight years and, gosh, they were liberal. He has to deal with the liberal government of Toledo, liberal press, etc. Out here in the sticks, it’s more conservative.

I found this on the diocesan website:

www.toledodiocese.org/press/Blade%20art.htm

God bless,
oremus