Does abortion save millions from hell?

[JimG]

My position is that of the Church: that Baptism is necessary for salvation. Do unborn babies who are aborted receive baptism of desire? Or baptism by martyrdom for the Faith? I do not know, and the Church has not said.

 

[Cruciferi]

This is a rebranding of the age old question, “But Lord, How Many Will Be Saved?”.

Outside of Canonized Saints, we do not know where individuals go. I contend that the majority of humanity will be saved; however, that’s speculation. Same thing with the unbaptized infants and adults. We don’t know.

These individuals are entrusted to God’s Infinite Mercy and that should be sufficient.

 

[JimG]

Of course the Church entrusts unborn children and others to God’s mercy. It also encourages parents to baptize their newborns without delay to ensure that original sin is removed and that they become children of God and members of the body of Christ.

 

[Zaccheus]

Yes, but are they being punished in hell for sending someone to heaven?
The only answer to this dilemma is that the material good is of moral value.

Abortionists are not punished in hell for sending someone to heaven.
Abortionists are punished in hell for performing abortions.

If the unborn baby goes to heaven that is not the intent of the abortionist.
The intent of the abortionist is to abort an embryo.

 

[Pnwcatholic]

I think the Church should say. It would help a lot of grieving mothers.

 

[Zaccheus]

For Catholics, however, the result of any death of an innocent or absolved person has a positive result.

Abortion is evil.

 

[Zaccheus]

Are those responsible for the death of a foetus going to hell for sending someone to heaven?

They go to hell for committing infanticide. If the victim goes to heaven that is neither the intent of the abortionist nor is it in the abortionist’s power to choose that outcome.

 

[JimG]

The Church has a positive outlook. But it cannot say for sure because it does not know what has not been revealed.

 

[Rau]

For Catholics, however, the result of any death of an innocent or absolved person has a positive result.

Said victims may indeed find themselves in heaven - but, so what? That outcome provides no license to do evil.

 

[o_mlly]

It only takes 1 to kill a foetus, and that 1 doesn’t have to be the mother.

Are those responsible for the death of a foetus going to hell for sending someone to heaven?

The OP’s thought experiment premised 100 million abortions. Do you claim that a significant portion of the 100 million are other than procured direct abortions? If procured then at least 2 are involved in the direct killing of an innocent.

 

[Zaccheus]

I think the Church should say. It would help a lot of grieving mothers.

Assuming the Church knows.
The Church does not know what happens to infants who die without baptism. We trust God’s mercy for them but we shouldn’t be called on to invent an answer.

 

[Annie]

And a woman can live long enough to repent and then join her children in heaven.

We hope that those neither baptism nor original sin go to Heaven. Maybe they don’t, in which case the mother would not be able to join her children in Heaven.

Yes, but are they being punished in hell for sending someone to heaven?

Abortion is grave matter. If the other two conditions are dulfilled and there was no repentance before death, then the person would go to Hell.

We do not know that the unborn/unbaptized go to Heaven, but we do know that someone has subverted God’s will by killing them, and that that person had a part to play in God’s plan which has now been eradicated. All the good that that person would have done will never happen.

But I also think its harmful to women to say babies that haven’t been born are not in heaven.

So we should lie to people to keep them happy? (I am not saying we need to emphasize this when a mother is grieving, but we should make it clear that we do not know rather than letting everyone think that all babies go automatically to Heaven.)

The Church does not know what happens to the souls of those who die baptized and without personal sin.

If we teach that they definitely go to Heaven, people will think, just as some have speculated here, that abortion isn’t that bad.

And many prayers will be left unsaid.

 

[Gorgias]

It IS the logical conclusion. There is a very good theater play: “Sister Mary Ignatius explains it all for you”, and in the play this is an important part.

Right. Because we should have our theology from playwrights who write comedy, and not from the Church.

For Catholics, however, the result of any death of an innocent or absolved person has a positive result.

Except that it’s not merely “death”, but rather, “murder”. Are we going to claim murder as a positive act?

I based my OP on Catholic belief.

Well… on an incomplete analysis, perhaps.

How can the Church not know something so basic when they know all about the moral intricacies about sexual interaction between married couples for example?

Hmm… because the former has to do with God’s will (which we don’t have special insight into) and the latter has to do with human will (which we kinda have better perspective on)?

 

[Annie]

The existence of limbo would mean that God is unjust. Say someone murders a foetus. The murderer repents & goes to heaven & sees God. The foetus goes to limbo & never sees God. Would God be just to allow a murderer to go to heaven but not allow their innocent victim?

If Limbo exists, God is still just.

The reason the baby killed by abortion cannot go to Heaven (if Limbo exists) is that the option of going to Heaven was taken away by another human being, not God, Who condemns that act. The ones who are unjust are those who take that chance away while keeping it for themselves.

God remains merciful, and it is through His mercy that a murderer may be able to repent and enter Heaven.

The perpetrators first have to repent, which will be very difficult. Then they have to persevere in making reparations, an enormously heavy task considering the gravity of the act.

 

[Annie]

I think the Church should say. It would help a lot of grieving mothers.

How can the Church not know something so basic when they know all about the moral intricacies about sexual interaction between married couples for example?

Certain issues are natural knowledge, like we can figure out that killing others is wrong.

Other things are revealed knowledge, which was given to us by God, first to the Jews then to the Apostles.

If God did not reveal something, the Church cannot teach what we speculate about it as true, because that would mean the Church would be teaching a lie, which Christ taught the Church would be protected from.

 

[Annie]

For Catholics, however, the result of any death of an innocent or absolved person has a positive result.

No, because all unjustified killing is terribly wrong. A person who is not murdered can get to Heaven and still do God’s will on earth before natural death.

A person who is murdered cannot do the good that God had planned for him to do.

An unbaptized person who is murdered before committing personal sin may or may not attain Heaven; the Church does not know.

Now, we have no idea what that would do to the soul of the perpetrators, but we can make some educated guess. As John 15:13 says: “There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” And giving up their eternal bliss is even greater…

Heaven is much more than eternal bliss.

Heaven is being with God and adoring God. Giving up one’s place in Heaven can in no way be considered the equivalent of giving up one’s life for one’s friends, because the murderer would not be giving up something that is his. He would be depriving God of what is His.

 

[Spaten]

Heaven is much more than eternal bliss.

Have you been there? And brought back some video?

 

[Zaccheus]

How can the Church not know something so basic when they know all about the moral intricacies about sexual interaction between married couples for example?

One thing does not follow from the other.
The Church knows what God has revealed to us.
Some things we can work out through human reasoning.
God has not revealed what He does for the souls of the unborn, or unbaptized infants. Nor can we reason our way to that information-- insufficient data.

 

[Zaccheus]

The logical conclusion is that killing all the newborns immediately after baptism is the absolute, surefire way to help them into heaven. This is what the church teaches

NO. The Church does not teach this.
What the Church teaches is that murder is evil, and we must not do evil. Not for any reason. No matter how much someone urges that we can get some good out of it.

 

[Brendan_64]

But rather that the harmful effects of abortion may not be as dire as claimed by some.

I think for the innocent child involved, being killed in your mother’s womb (in a horrendous manner) is just about as harmful as it get in this world.