Because we have a freewill.
pocaracas, stir up some imagination!Cheers!
It’s eternal… you would tire of it.
Everyone else would also be ok… or gone…
Eternal life can be a good thing. Would it really be so bad to see all your old buddies again?So, what do you think about the “better story” or the “story with flavor” ideas? Choosing among options. Choosing against the flat and lifeless. I don’t remember if all of that was in the Life of Pi movie. Or the “faith” it takes to deny the existence of God. Book is excellent.I saw the movie
Fair enough. Humans aren’t perfect…yet…
Understood. And though I think this use of the word “knowingly” is rather broader than is necessary for unrepentant “knowingly and willingly rejecting God” to (for instance) result in damnation, my answer is still yes, and I still use myself as an example. I know that my sins are contrary to the will of God, I know that God is goodness itself, and I know that the will of God is exactly the same thing as the absolute best possible way for the universe and everyone/thing in it to behave. I know this. No doubt whatsoever in my mind, no “well maybe in this case…,” no “but maybe the good effects will…”. And I do it anyway.
Some of them doubtless did, but the scriptures themselves paint a picture of a crowd worked into rage by manipulation, not one attempting to carry out a well reasoned punishment. Nevertheless, perhaps they did not know what they did, but we do not have that excuse. If the crowd did not know that Jesus is God when they crucified Him, well we do know who Jesus is when we do the same thing.
Nope, at least not always. Yes, the knowledge of good and evil can prevent me from committing evil, but even when that knowledge is there, it doesn’t always. It is true that I am less likely to do evil that results in immediate acute harm, but the fact that I am more likely to do evil with more remote, less acute harm is not because I do not know that the harm is there, but because I am more easily able to ignore it.
Paul was expressing frustration, but he was not only doing that. Given that he explains why it is that we sin knowing that we are sinning later, there is certainly a sense in which he does understand what he does. We are all fallen and weak, we knowingly choose the immediate selfish pleasure over the obvious good.Thanks for your addition here.
A law of men… a law that rules people. A law that considers bad behaviors and their corresponding penalties. Did he do such a thing?
No… I was trying to offer my point of view on the subject. A point of view which I think is in line with the thread’s subject.
I’m sorry for drawing on previous work by other people… It’s just that it’s a chore to have to do it all ourselves.
He had the merit of putting some ideas in one single book and had the marketing backing to get that book to a ton of places.
Ah… headaches… I’ve heard about this awesome home remedy for them: sex.
Am I trying to convince anyone that god doesn’t exist?
yoohoo! I win, I win, I win!!
It’s the eternal part that bugs me.pocaracas, stir up some imagination!
Ah… no. This comes from a portuguese expression which combines three words and arose out of a moment of frustration a few years ago, when I was trying to register on a portuguese forum using some variant of my name… it’s at times like these that it sucks to have one of the most common first names and one of the most common last names on this country. Then again, it’s great for anonymity.
yeah… now that you mention it, I remember that thing…
Up until a few hundred years ago, slavery was widely practiced in Europe and America… Some will claim that it’s still practiced, today, in some parts of India and Africa.
Cheers!
It seems that someone is familiar with the ancient tools of Arianism which are being adapted for the project of modernizing Divine Revelation. As apparent, this modernizing is to dump annoying doctrines so that all views of knowingly and willingly rejecting God are equally successful in getting rid of human responsibility. However, the legitimate recognition of the “fly in the ointment” might stop the project of harmonizing.Granny,
Will you please get off your high horse about this Arianism business! Enough! When you find what you think is an Arianist, let me know, and we can discuss him. In the mean time, stop judging! Please! What was your last suggestion, that even those who use the term “omni” are arianists? Granny, get a grip!
Grrrr… Love you though…
Almost forgot to reply to this!
)Think about the happiest moment of your life and freeze it. That is eternity. That moment where time seems to stop (and you wish it did, to preserve the moment and the feelings) - that is eternity.
Hi Fran,
All I know is that God is a omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient. God is love. I know that from within. Suffering leads to awareness. There are a lot of things I simply don’t know the answer to, like “why do we learn so slowly?’” and “why are we born ignorant?”
Man does harm because he has the God-given appetites, the capacity for blindness, and is not omniscient. We do harm because we want stuff and we become blind to the humanity of others when we want. In addition, we are compelled to punish wrongdoing, and we are blind to the humanity of those we wish to punish.
The Church teaching is that man is inherently good, as stated in Genesis. However, the Church says that man is “stained” which implies that man is not all-that-good-anymore. It is a mixed message. That is the other reason why I say that it is okay for Catholics to think of man as “evil” or “wicked”. The labels represent an underlying resentment toward the human condition, and assertions from the hierarchy will not touch this resentment. What is needed is a reconciliation within the human, which takes time. So, in the mean time, is the person who resents humanity to be kicked out? No, because all of us resent humanity at various times in our lives. The answer is to inspire people to see the beauty in what it means to be human. The beauty of our nature.
Hi Iron D:
So, what I am looking for is an example of your last sentence to really analyze.
So, when we ignore the effects we are putting it out of our mind. If something is out of our mind, it is not “knowingly”.
We would have to enter into the moment in order to discern whether he is K&WRG though.
Yes, there is an answer, Iron Donkey! You gave the answer, there was a desire for a fleeting pleasure. The intent was to experience the pleasure, was it not? People choose what they see as the greatest good at the moment. Is it a willing rejection of God? Is that the intent? Or is the rejection a rejection of a rule, with no intent to reject God. For example, a person who is speeding is not willingly rejecting his nation, he is, for some reason, merely rejecting a rule.
You are starting to affect me! Pocaracas!It’s the eternal part that bugs me.
Eternal means forever and ever and ever, to infinity… that’s a long time to be with my old buddies…
heck, even for muslims, it’s a long time to be with their … I don’t know… 73(?) virgins…
Even at one per week, after 73 weeks, you still have an eternity with non-virgins
Oops, I used it.Accurate representations on matters of spirituality are hard to come by. We can’t prove or disprove the existence of God, we can only evaluate theories of the cosmos to see if they make sense. The problem is, no view makes sense out of everything. And some views, are, well, more seemingly “realistic” because they deny anything “unproven”, but the absence of meaning makes life seem purposeless and/or depressing. So, I like a better story, and I choose to see the world through that story. No harm done - unless I defend the story with blind zeal. But such “blind zeal” goes against my version of the story.
So you gave me 3 cases. Here is my counter:
Did you see my post 264? I gave two versions of why Jesus suffered and died on the cross.
Not going off on a tangent. You have not acknowledged the teaching yet.
Good morning One Sheep,Hi Iron Donkey, and welcome!
So, I am using “knowingly” in the broadest, all-inclusive sense. In other words, people reject God because there is a crucial bit of information that they do not know.
For example, if I just told my children not to smoke “because it is wrong”, I am leaving out some crucial information. If I tell someone to be careful with an extremely valuable object “because it is wrong to break it” without explaining its value, I have left out some crucial information.
The crowd who hung Jesus, for example, were completely unaware of Jesus’ value. They thought they were doing the right thing, carrying out justice, and in the endeavor of punishment they were blind to His humanity and divinity.
Are you open to the possibility that when you are saying “this is not good”, you may not know all the reasons why it isn’t good, i.e. harm done? For certainly there are many evil acts that you do not do because the harm done is more clear, right?
Oh, and as far as Paul’s words, he was expressing a frustration. But we need not give up trying to understand what we do! And what is more: after 2000 years more of scientific study, we know a great deal more about why the human behaves the way he does.
Thanks for your addition here.
One Sheep,Hi Iron Donkey, and welcome!
So, I am using “knowingly” in the broadest, all-inclusive sense. In other words, people reject God because there is a crucial bit of information that they do not know.
For example, if I just told my children not to smoke “because it is wrong”, I am leaving out some crucial information. If I tell someone to be careful with an extremely valuable object “because it is wrong to break it” without explaining its value, I have left out some crucial information.
The crowd who hung Jesus, for example, were completely unaware of Jesus’ value. They thought they were doing the right thing, carrying out justice, and in the endeavor of punishment they were blind to His humanity and divinity.
Are you open to the possibility that when you are saying “this is not good”, you may not know all the reasons why it isn’t good, i.e. harm done? For certainly there are many evil acts that you do not do because the harm done is more clear, right?
Oh, and as far as Paul’s words, he was expressing a frustration. But we need not give up trying to understand what we do! And what is more: after 2000 years more of scientific study, we know a great deal more about why the human behaves the way he does.
Thanks for your addition here.
Come on Vico. I know you can do this.
This really sounds like a great denial of the purpose of the Catholic Church.Accurate representations on matters of spirituality are hard to come by. We can’t prove or disprove the existence of God, we can only evaluate theories of the cosmos to see if they make sense. The problem is, no view makes sense out of everything. And some views, are, well, more seemingly “realistic” because they deny anything “unproven”, but the absence of meaning makes life seem purposeless and/or depressing. So, I like a better story, and I choose to see the world through that story. No harm done - unless I defend the story with blind zeal. But such “blind zeal” goes against my version of the story.
A person who knows about God and does not accept Him is rejecting God.
Yeah. We’re dumb sheep. Dumb sheep go where the shepherd tells them to go - they don’t stand around wondering about the circumstances and which way they should head.
Have you heard of grace? I think I must have mentioned this before.
I’m not going here again. You and simpleas can believe whatever the heck you want to. That doesn’t make it CORRECT. Depraved is a different concept. I’ve already told you I’m not a Calvanist. I know the church teaching really well. I teach the church teaching. Don’t take my word for it. PLEASE take this post to a priest of your choosing and ask him to explain how we are inherently good. And then ask him to explain to you why we sin.
Gee. Thanks for explaining to me what Jesus said. I think I must have missed that sentence. If He is giving us a supernatural approach, and I’m telling you I’m christian, why do you continue with your second pp?? What difference does it make WHO the enemy is? Shouldn’t I just be following Jesus’ instructions??
Only God could know what the woman was doing and what was in her heart, my dear One Sheep. Not me and not you.
See One Sheep.Good morning, pocaracas, and thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut!
I would hope so.
If it is boring, it is not a utopia, right? I could never tire of creating beautiful things or learning more. But wow, what if we were to know everything? Gosh, how could life have any thrill without discovery? Then, I suppose, all my focus would have to turn to making life better for everyone else, which is even more rewarding!
We can know by self-reflection and observation of beauty. There is a connection we can find in All that Exists, a Love. And faith also presents a “better story”. Have you read* Life of Pi?*
Yes, very good points. There is a “knowing” accessible through prayer and self-reflection, but revelation is not easy to gain for people. The information is out there; when the human appreciates the beauty of a hover fly dancing between blossoms, her appreciation comes from the source of the same beauty. Appreciation is in itself beautiful! And what are “guidelines” if they are not means by which we protect that which we hold dear? Indeed, the guidelines themselves are innate to a large degree. The software is all there, it is experience that fills in all the necessary data. I know that sounds a little spacey, but we Westerners are a bit too left-brained in our approach to the world.
I think that Dawkins is operating from what he sees as an evil - religion and faith itself. Dawkin’s approach is “organic” in that he sees a “power of goodness” in science and a “power of evil” in religion. He would not word it that way, of course, but that is the impression I get from his approach. I wish that He could understand and forgive “religious people”; all of us suffer a bit of ignorance whether we believe in God or not.
Have a great day.