Does anyone ever know what they are doing when they sin?

[steve-b]

steve-b:

post 126 I offered the following, (btw you didn’t answer)

.“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”

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That knowledge is front and center. Jesus is telling us about Himself. How far would you take that with Him?

I think you may perhaps not understand what I am asking for, but let me give this a try.

Let’s say a person has in his mind, at the forefront, .“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”.

Is this the person who you are saying is simultaneously, at the moment, choosing to sin?

Are you suggesting ignorance is constant and even permanent? I would suggest that sounds like one way some maybe most, use to game the system.

 

[OneSheep]

Are you suggesting ignorance is constant and even permanent?

No, I am not. Are you going to answer my question?

 

[notforgotten]

Not that I have given it much thought, but I will have to say yes…it has opened my eyes to an inadequate condition in which we all possess and I have humbly seen it in others and offered a deeper level of forgiveness. I need to practice this more in my life though.

You once called yourself, “dumbsheep”…lol.

I used to call myself, “lowlyservant.”

 

[OneSheep]

Not that I have given it much thought, but I will have to say yes…it has opened my eyes to an inadequate condition in which we all possess and I have humbly seen it in others and offered a deeper level of forgiveness. I need to practice this more in my life though.

We know from the Gospel that Jesus “grew in wisdom”. So Jesus must have had the human experience of doing something in ignorance, and learned something from His errors.

The word “understand” means to “stand among”. At a deeper level of forgiveness, we do as Jesus did from the cross, He “stood among”, he entered into the mindset of the people who were wanting Him punished and gone.

So when He says, “forgive them, for they know not what they do”, he is forgiving at a deeper level, a level that says “I could have been among these people doing the very same thing if I had the same awareness they do.” This is more than merely offering, it is truly forgiving from the heart, right?

When we take this step, we are truly connecting with people in a deeper way, right? It is a new wholeness, a deeper holiness. Can you relate to this?

 

[notforgotten]

I believe that Jesus would have “grew in wisdom” through His experiences and not out of ignorance or error. Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they do” implies that he understood them and their actions, not that He would do the very same thing if He was in their position. Because of His great compassion and understanding, He could forgive with a deeper level of understanding in His heart. His mercy would be perfect and not clouded with shades of darkness. He would no longer see us for what we were, but what we have become. There would be no residual resentments as with us humans. God and Jesus are perfect. They are high above all the angels and the Creators of all things both visible and invisible.

 

[OneSheep]

I believe that Jesus would have “grew in wisdom” through His experiences and not out of ignorance or error.

We are pretty much in agreement. If a person is “growing in wisdom”, they are growing from a position of less awareness to more awareness. Ignorance is a harsh word, it sort of says “blameably lacking” or something like that. Seeing God’s perfection, a merciful perfection, takes all the blame out of it. People make errors, they are not necessarily errors in compassion, but they follow the same pattern we make an error, we learn something, we grow. That is what experiential growth is about, correct? If we say that Jesus was incapable of error, then we start to move into the direction of those who said that Jesus was not really human.

Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they do” implies that he understood them and their actions, not that He would do the very same thing if He was in their position. Because of His great compassion and understanding, He could forgive with a deeper level of understanding in His heart.

You left out a very important part of what I said, though:

if I had the same awareness they do

Obviously, Jesus had the awareness of the divine, but because He experienced what it means to be human, (and we can all relate to that human experience) He also was able to put Himself in their shoes. A very important aspect of mature forgiveness is being able to understand the lack of awareness, blindness, mental illness, etc. involved when people make hurtful choices, and you are demonstrating this great humility.

Can you look at the worst actors in history and say “I could have been this person doing the very same thing if I had the same (lack of)awareness he did”? For me, it takes a realization that we truly do not know what we are doing when we sin.

 

[OneSheep]

I would suggest that sounds like one way some maybe most, use to game the system.

Yes, you do have a tendency to focus on people getting away with something while I am trying to bring it back to understanding!

Yes, some people remain ignorant and blind a very long time, even a lifetime. Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “Anytime you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you’re living in an illusion.” Yes, people can hold grudges for a lifetime, and therefore have the illusions for a lifetime.

And when the illusions are relevant to our behavior, we certainly do not know what we are doing.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

I would suggest that sounds like one way some maybe most, use to game the system.

Yes, you do have a tendency to focus on people getting away with something while I am trying to bring it back to understanding!

Understanding? People quickly understand gaming the system.

Example:

When Adam was caught having eaten the apple, did he take ownership of his actions when confronted by God? Nope! What did he do? Adam immediately blamed Eve. THEN he blamed God, by saying the woman YOU gave me caused me to eat the fruit you said NOT TO EAT… Was Adam some poor ignorant schmuck? He came up with that argument awfully quick. Where did he learn that argument from that he gave? Why didn’t he apologize? It would have been the first excuse ever given and the first apology.

ALL Sin can be boiled down to disobedience. And the net of that, the first human being didn’t own up to what he did, he doubled down on his offense, by blaming Eve and ultimately God, but not himself… and that’s exactly the approach you’re taking in your approach. No body is guilty. No body knows what they are doing when they sin…which is the topic of the thread… Ultimately the consequences to this topic, taking your approach,

People come away with a blurred understanding of their part of wrong, or even indifferentism to it, because of misapplied or false sentimentality towards God and their own responsibility in sin. They lower the bar, rather than keeping the bar high where it was put there by Jesus, with solid teaching.,

For those who have tried to fashion Jesus into an overly pleasant, overly affirming sort of fellow in all situations, rather than the uncompromising God & Lord that He is, … well, I would suggest, they will have a rude awakening on “the” day… Because the Jesus who is there, said the following

“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”

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[OneSheep]

Yes ppl of the age of reason know when they are sinning because the natural laws of God are written into every mans heart. By committing sin their intellect becomes darkened.

You are referring to the conscience, yes, it is there but it takes experience and awareness to have access to it. A conscience can indeed be malformed, misinformed.

Can you come up with a scenario where a person knows what he is doing?

thanks for your response!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

post 126 I offered the following, (btw you didn’t answer)

.“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search

That knowledge is front and center. Jesus is telling us about Himself. How far would you take that with Him?

I think you may perhaps not understand what I am asking for, but let me give this a try.

Let’s say a person has in his mind, at the forefront, .“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”.

Is this the person who you are saying is simultaneously, at the moment, choosing to sin?

Yes it’s the same person.

See my previous post to you for an example

 

[DeniseNY]

You’re not alone in this. I’ve done it as well.

 

[OneSheep]

Im sorry it was a long answer but yes i truly believe even the most badly formed conscience can recognize good from evil acts until they reach the point that they accept the evil and desire it.

Thank you for your long answer. It sounds like you had a well-formed conscience in spite of the fact that you had so many influences around you to misguide it!

So yes, as you were told by therapists, your conscience “should” have been badly formed, but you by the grace of God beat the odds and were able to connect with a deeper part of yourself. Congratulations! You are not saying that other people can not have a malformed conscience, though, as the CCC says conscience formation is a life-long process:

“Knowing what we are doing when we sin”, though, is more than just the conscience. First of all, “knowing what we do” means that we are not blinded by desire or resentment, which is very often the state of mind when people sin. The test for this is, does the person regret his action later, such that he would not repeat his sin? If the answer is yes, then there was something he did not know when he sinned. If the answer is no, then his conscience is malformed.

Another part of “knowing” could be called the “love test”. Would the person commit the same sin against his own mother, against his own child? If the answer is no, then the person’s value of human dignity is underdeveloped, he is immature in empathy toward other people. If the answer is yes, then he is blinded by despair.

Make sesne?

 

[Lovinglight]

Thnk you…trying to understand…but not really. It seems kind of opposite. If a persons sorry…how can they lack empathy?

A person can regret their actions cuz of the consequences or because they genuinely feel contrition which i would think is a good conscience.

 

[OneSheep]

Thnk you…trying to understand…but not really. It seems kind of opposite. If a persons sorry…how can they lack empathy?

Yes, I do see that you are trying to understand, and the “tests” can be confusing if they are mixed. What I meant is that if a person later regrets his sin, to the degree that he would not repeat it, then his clear thinking is at the time of regret, not the time of the sin. If his presence of mind, if his “knowing” at the time of the choice to sin was the same as when he had the regret, he would not have sinned. A person who later regretted wanting Jesus crucified was blind at the time of crucifixion.

The other test, “would the person commit the same sin against his own mother or child?” has to do with empathy and seeing value in all people. Let’s say a person steals some clothes from a store. Would he steal the clothes if the store was owned by his own mother or child? If the answer is no, then he is not aware of the value of the person who owns the store, he is inconsiderate of their wants and needs as people, he has an undeveloped value of human dignity, his value of people is limited to those he loves, those who love him.

So, in a sense you are correct. Even a psychopath can be sorry that he killed someone, because now he is in jail. He sees that his sin was wrong because now he is suffering the consequences. However, did he ever have empathy for the person he killed, or the loved ones of the victim? Probably not. People we call “psychopaths” have a very limited and underdeveloped empathy ability.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Steve,

Now just for a moment, breathe. Think to yourself: “am I going to say everything OneSheep is wrong just because of who he is and the observations he makes are so wrong?” If so, try to be aware of that bias. I might say something that actually makes sense!

Adam immediately blamed Eve.

Well, of course he did. It was Eve who took it first. However, he did sin and obviously regretted his action. Would he have chosen to eat the fruit if his mindset would have been the same as when he had the regret? No, not if his regret had been forefront, knowing fully the consequences (including the emotional consequences) of his action.

THEN he blamed God, by saying the woman YOU gave me caused me to eat the fruit you said NOT TO EAT

Yes, he is making excuses, trying to escape the consequences. Does he know what he is doing when he does this? Answering that question would involve understanding what is happening in his mind. At the time of the statement, he was probably feeling some fear, so it is understandable that his fear blinded his sense of right and wrong concerning taking responsibility.

Where did he learn that argument from that he gave?

Did you know that even robots will lie when they are programmed to be competitive and “learn” from trial and error? It only takes a bit of intelligence to seek escape.

Why didn’t he apologize?

An apology would have meant taking ownership and being willing to accept the consequences. If he later regrets this, then his mindset at the time was one of blindness. The time of regretting not apologizing is when he is of clearer mind, connected to his conscience, not when he refuses to apologize.

No body is guilty.

He is guilty in the sense that he committed the sin, but he did not know what he was doing when he did all of them. Does God blame them, hold something against them, refuse to forgive? That depends on one’s image of God.

rather than the uncompromising God & Lord that He is

God’s love for us is uncompromising. Human desire for justice, however, can compromise our love for one another. Keep in mind when Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulterer. Keep in mind the prodigal son’s older brother.

(continued)

 

[OneSheep]

“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”

This verse taken alone is far out of context of the Gospel. Our theology has it that people choose hell, we are not “cast” there. The verse has to be carefully explained, otherwise it contradicts God’s forgiveness. The prodigal son’s father wants His son back, even when he is out sinning.

Steve, if you did not fear hell, would you behave? Is it only out of self-preservation that people avoid sin? Well, it may be true for some people. For those people, fear is a very good thing. All of us need some degree of fear when we are children and do not have empathy and love as our primary guide.

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep:

Let’s say a person has in his mind, at the forefront, .“But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him”.

Is this the person who you are saying is simultaneously, at the moment, choosing to sin?

Yes it’s the same person.

Okay, great, now we can go from my saying my observations and you making assertions contesting without evidence.

The first question is, why is the person choosing to sin, even though he fears hell? For the sake of clarity, can we say he is choosing to steal something? Commit adultery? Pick a sin, please, it may help.

And when I’m asking “why is the person choosing?” what I am not looking for is an evaluation, but the reasons in the person’s mind for choosing to sin even if those words are in the forefront.

 

[Kei]

I would like to make it clear that being overcome by immoral passions is itself sinful, I am pretty sure.
But I would argue based on my own experience that when one rationalizes, they still know that it is wrong but that they are finding a way to make it sound OK to do just for their own sake. It is a mind that has not the Law of the Lord above all things.
Contrast that with the Jews. Had Jesus TRULY been a blasphemer, then what they were doing might have been seen as something fine to do. However, they really did not know what they were doing.

 

[OneSheep]

I would like to make it clear that being overcome by immoral passions is itself sinful, I am pretty sure.

Yes, I agree that it is. The question is, does the overcome person know what he is doing when he does this sin?

But I would argue based on my own experience that when one rationalizes, they still know that it is wrong but that they are finding a way to make it sound OK to do just for their own sake. It is a mind that has not the Law of the Lord above all things.

Exactly. It is a mind that has not the Law of the Lord (sound conscience) above all things, or he has an underdeveloped conscience, and/or he has an undeveloped ability to empathize. If he knew what he was doing, he would have the Law of the Lord in the forefront, above all else.

And when our mind is “trying to find a way to make it (sin) OK”, then we are also sinning. To a degree we are alienated from what is true, alienated from love. We are blinded by fear of consequence. If I do this rationalizing, and later regret it, then the clear mind is not when I have been rationalizing, but when I have the regret for doing so. If I had known the regret before I had done the rationalizing, then I would not have chosen to rationalize.

And when I want to keep blaming myself, my mind resists seeing that I did not know what I was doing. The clear mindset is one in which a person understands and forgives, not when one is in a state of blaming.

Contrast that with the Jews. Had Jesus TRULY been a blasphemer, then what they were doing might have been seen as something fine to do. However, they really did not know what they were doing.

Well, they did not know what they were doing at many levels.
A. They did not know that Jesus was not blaspheming
B. They did not see His divinity
C. They did not see his human dignity
D. (there are probably many more things they did not know, i.e. that He was showing people God’s love, etc.)

Are you seeing that letter “C” applies to the other two people being crucified that day? Crucifixion and torture in themselves are ramifications of the lack of awareness concerning human dignity.

 

[OneSheep]

I hope this is being received as I am trying to demonstrate.

Understanding our lack of awareness is very humbling, but it empowers us to be responsible.

When Jesus said, “forgive them, for they know not what they do”, He called us to take a look within. Where is my ignorance? Am I ignorant? And then, through use of the gift of understanding, we are given the ability to forgive at a deeper level, deeper than the level of “okay, I won’t be mad at myself”.