Does anyone here, that believes in God, actually think that God accepts gay marriage?

[Chizzywinks]

Firstly, I am sorry that you went through some troubled times and am happy that you have now found happiness.

But I will tell you that the ONLY way you know that “God knows what is in” your heart is because the Catholic Church told you this.

Everything you know about God being love, God’s forgiveness, God’s mercy…comes from the Catholic Church.

So if you believe that the CC got it right about God being merciful, why do you believe the CC got it wrong about divorce and re-marriage?

Aren’t you just trying to pick and choose the teachings that make you feel comfortable, rather than really conforming yourself to what God has revealed?

I didn’t say the CC has it wrong. What I’m saying is that, in my heart, I am not an adultress. I do not have any want or need for some higher up in the CC to declare that, ok…your previous marriages are anulled! No. As I’ve said before, my Lord knows what happened and what is in my heart. He knows what I am sorry for.

Oh yes, I’m a sinner, as we all are…but I am not as horrific of a sinner as the Church decides I am.

And about the Methodists…I do not know the whole deal with them. All I know is that when I go to a service with my husband, I leave feeling good. They seem to preach more about our Lord being loving, forgiving, kind and accepting, rather than pointing fingers saying how all those people are sinners bound for hell.

 

[Chizzywinks]

Amen!

Have you heard of the Rev. Fred Phelps, Chizzy?

His religion professes that God hates homosexuals.

He seems to believe this with all of his heart.

Are you really going to say that one’s religion doesn’t matter?

Well, guilt can be there for a reason. Unreasonable guilt is bad and unnecessary, but guilt can often be a good thing.

I don’t know what the source of your guilt is. If it’s unreasonable, then stop feeling guilty! If it’s justified, then it ought to motivate you to change.

Not talking about hate religions. I was talking about Methodists, Lutherans, Buddhists (yes, I know, I know), LDS… Judaism. Not Scientology, though. Never Scientology!

 

[PRmerger]

Not talking about hate religions. I was talking about Methodists, Lutherans, Buddhists (yes, I know, I know), LDS… Judaism. Not Scientology, though. Never Scientology!

But who gets to decide which is an “acceptable” religion and which is one of those you think are unacceptable?

 

[PRmerger]

I didn’t say the CC has it wrong. What I’m saying is that, in my heart, I am not an adultress. I do not have any want or need for some higher up in the CC to declare that, ok…your previous marriages are anulled! No. As I’ve said before, my Lord knows what happened and what is in my heart. He knows what I am sorry for.

So do you believe that Jesus got it wrong when he said that if you divorce and re-marry you commit adultery?

Oh yes, I’m a sinner, as we all are…but I am not as horrific of a sinner as the Church decides I am.

I am curious as to where you think the Church has quantified your degree of sin as “horrific”?

Are you talking about the fact that it is a mortal sin to commit adultery? If so, do you not think adultery, in general, is deserving of that?

(Let’s bypass the question for now of whether you are indeed committing adultery. I am simply asking if you think it’s wrong for the Church to declare that adultery is a very, very, serious sin.)

And about the Methodists…I do not know the whole deal with them. All I know is that when I go to a service with my husband, I leave feeling good.

Unfortunately, one’s faith isn’t about “feeling good” but about Truth.

And I am certain that the Rev. Fred Phelps leaves his worship service on Sunday mornings feeling good as well.

They seem to preach more about our Lord being loving, forgiving, kind and accepting, rather than pointing fingers saying how all those people are sinners bound for hell.

If you knew your Catholic faith better you wouldn’t say this. No Catholic teaching has ever declared that anyone is in hell, or even bound for hell.

In fact, it is against the teaching of the Church for anyone to say that a person is in hell.

I wish that you would learn about your faith a little better before you leave!

 

[EasterJoy]

No. I don’t.

And if my son had chosen the priesthood, I would’ve been 100% supportive of that. But he does not want to be a priest. He does not want to be celibate.

True. But my son has told me he wants to have a child one day. He would probably adopt or have a surrogate. And he wants to do this with a partner.

The problem is that he does not have any natural inclination to sexual relations that are according to the way the sexual faculties were designed. He has an inclination to do things that the human body was not designed to do. That isn’t to say that I don’t believe there is something in his brain that inclines him in that direction, only that the direction he is inclined to go will never, as an example, produce the children he wants to have. He wants what is impossible. I feel for him, but that doesn’t change reality. His inclination is real, but it is not according to sexual reality.

Your son has a very real affliction, but he has been lied to with regards to what his options are for dealing with it. Planning to orphan his own children from their mother by impregnating her when he has no capacity let alone any plan to be a husband to her and instead making her into a sort of a human broodmare for himself and his lover is not it.

I know he doesn’t want to hear this and I know you probably don’t want to hear it, but that does not mean it is unkind to say it. There are many times during his childhood, as an example, when you had to deny him the chance to do what he thought was right, because he was mistaken about right and wrong. You were not making him out to be a bad person when you taught him not to do everything his was inclined to do back then, and let us hope no one here is making him to be a bad person for correcting his current mistake in conscience now. That is not the goal here. The goal is to give the truth a voice, even if it is not what someone wants to hear.

 

[EasterJoy]

I didn’t say the CC has it wrong. What I’m saying is that, in my heart, I am not an adultress. I do not have any want or need for some higher up in the CC to declare that, ok…your previous marriages are anulled! No. As I’ve said before, my Lord knows what happened and what is in my heart. He knows what I am sorry for.

Oh yes, I’m a sinner, as we all are…but I am not as horrific of a sinner as the Church decides I am.

And about the Methodists…I do not know the whole deal with them. All I know is that when I go to a service with my husband, I leave feeling good. They seem to preach more about our Lord being loving, forgiving, kind and accepting, rather than pointing fingers saying how all those people are sinners bound for hell.

I am concerned for the Methodists. The people who listened to what the Lord had to say did not leave him feeling good about the sin in their lives. They didn’t leave him thinking that it was impossible to go to Gehenna. If anything, he upped the ante when it came to what would bar a person from Heaven:

*I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna. Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.

“It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.’ But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.*

Matt. 5: 20-32

The Church laws about judging the validity of a marriage are there for your protection, so that you will not presume a marriage to be invalid when it was in fact valid. The rules are meant to preserve you from committing bigamy and adultery. If you do not wait for a Church ruling, perhaps you will be right about the validity of your earlier marriages and in the big picture you will not have committed a bigamy, but you will have chosen a presumptuous path, marrying outside the Church in order to put your own judgment ahead of those who have authority over you.

You have been faithful by avoiding Holy Communion while your marital situation is up in the air, but you are wanted at the Table of the Lord. I believe you may be 100% correct about the validity of your previous marriages. Please reconsider your course, and look into an investigation of the validity of your previous marriages. It would be by far preferable to have your previous marriages declared null and your current marriage blessed, so that you can come back to the Eucharist. (Yes, I believe your conscience is not properly formed on some counts, but we are all a work in progress on that front. You are wanted here. Please come back to full communion.)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Oh yes, I’m a sinner, as we all are…but I am not as horrific of a sinner as the Church decides I am.

Chizzywinks,

The condemnation you are hearing about yourself – the voice that says that your sin is “horrific” and “awful” and “unforgiveable” – that condemnation is not from God, nor from the Church. The **devil **is the one condemning you. As long as you hear the voices of the Pharisees shouting condemnations down upon you, saying that “you are deserving of death, or hell, or whatever”, as long as you hear these voices, you are listening to lies.

God loves you, right where you are. I want you to think of the worst thing you have ever done, some time when you hurt someone you love, badly, out of spite or hatred or perversity. Now I want you to know that at that very moment your Heavenly Father was looking down on you, loving you, accepting you, thrilled to pieces that He made you, but sad because you were in such a tough spot. God knows, more than any of us know, how deeply you’ve been wounded, and how your wounds have made you want to protect yourself, even at the risk of hurting or alienating others.

God’s not worried about that. He’s not worried that you’re “not good enough” or that you’re “unholy” or that you’re a “bad Catholic” or some other such nonsense. Those are all the devil’s lies. God, your Heavenly Daddy, says no such thing. He says that you are his dear and lovely daughter, and He loves you to death. If you listen, He will tell you all sorts of little things about yourself that make him proud, little things that are unique and special about you.

The Father doesn’t want you to stay where you are, and He doesn’t want you to listen to lies. He does not condemn; He embraces. You are afraid to come before Him. You are afraid that He will hurt you, like so many men in your life have hurt you. God is not like these men. He is so full of mercy and compassion for you!

I read some of your posts, and I feel your pain. I am not here to browbeat you or condemn you or tell you what is best for your son. I want you to know God’s love, right where you are, however unconventional or confusing your situation is.

From one beloved sinner to another,
Prodigal

 

[PRmerger]

Chizzywinks,

The condemnation you are hearing about yourself – the voice that says that your sin is “horrific” and “awful” and “unforgiveable” – that condemnation is not from God, nor from the Church. The **devil **is the one condemning you. As long as you hear the voices of the Pharisees shouting condemnations down upon you, saying that “you are deserving of death, or hell, or whatever”, as long as you hear these voices, you are listening to lies.

Indeed. There is no one rejoicing more over Chizzy’s departure from the Catholic Church than the devil.

 

[Chizzywinks]

So do you believe that Jesus got it wrong when he said that if you divorce and re-marry you commit adultery?

I am curious as to where you think the Church has quantified your degree of sin as “horrific”?

Are you talking about the fact that it is a mortal sin to commit adultery? If so, do you not think adultery, in general, is deserving of that?

(Let’s bypass the question for now of whether you are indeed committing adultery. I am simply asking if you think it’s wrong for the Church to declare that adultery is a very, very, serious sin.)

Unfortunately, one’s faith isn’t about “feeling good” but about Truth.

And I am certain that the Rev. Fred Phelps leaves his worship service on Sunday mornings feeling good as well.

If you knew your Catholic faith better you wouldn’t say this. No Catholic teaching has ever declared that anyone is in hell, or even bound for hell.

In fact, it is against the teaching of the Church for anyone to say that a person is in hell.

I wish that you would learn about your faith a little better before you leave!

Since I was never married in the Church, the Church never sees any of my marriages as real, therefore, how can I be commiting adultery? Adultery is when you are married and have sex with someone else.

 

[Chizzywinks]

But who gets to decide which is an “acceptable” religion and which is one of those you think are unacceptable?

Sorry, but I think any “religion” that spouts hatred toward anyone is not acceptable.

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry, but I think any “religion” that spouts hatred toward anyone is not acceptable.

Aren’t you being intolerant here, I respectfully ask?

 

[PRmerger]

Since I was never married in the Church, the Church never sees any of my marriages as real, therefore, how can I be commiting adultery? Adultery is when you are married and have sex with someone else.

Again, you need to know your faith better.

The Church views all marriages as valid, until proven otherwise, Chizzy. She takes it very, very, seriously when you profess before anyone–judge, or another person–that you are vowing to do something for your life.

Can you answer me if you believe that Jesus was wrong when he said that divorce and re-marriage is adultery? How do you understand those sayings from Jesus in the Bible?

Mark 10:11
“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Luke 16:18
“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

Matthew 19:9
“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

 

[Chizzywinks]

Chizzywinks,

The condemnation you are hearing about yourself – the voice that says that your sin is “horrific” and “awful” and “unforgiveable” – that condemnation is not from God, nor from the Church. The **devil **is the one condemning you. As long as you hear the voices of the Pharisees shouting condemnations down upon you, saying that “you are deserving of death, or hell, or whatever”, as long as you hear these voices, you are listening to lies.

God loves you, right where you are. I want you to think of the worst thing you have ever done, some time when you hurt someone you love, badly, out of spite or hatred or perversity. Now I want you to know that at that very moment your Heavenly Father was looking down on you, loving you, accepting you, thrilled to pieces that He made you, but sad because you were in such a tough spot. God knows, more than any of us know, how deeply you’ve been wounded, and how your wounds have made you want to protect yourself, even at the risk of hurting or alienating others.

God’s not worried about that. He’s not worried that you’re “not good enough” or that you’re “unholy” or that you’re a “bad Catholic” or some other such nonsense. Those are all the devil’s lies. God, your Heavenly Daddy, says no such thing. He says that you are his dear and lovely daughter, and He loves you to death. If you listen, He will tell you all sorts of little things about yourself that make him proud, little things that are unique and special about you.

The Father doesn’t want you to stay where you are, and He doesn’t want you to listen to lies. He does not condemn; He embraces. You are afraid to come before Him. You are afraid that He will hurt you, like so many men in your life have hurt you. God is not like these men. He is so full of mercy and compassion for you!

I read some of your posts, and I feel your pain. I am not here to browbeat you or condemn you or tell you what is best for your son. I want you to know God’s love, right where you are, however unconventional or confusing your situation is.

From one beloved sinner to another,
Prodigal

Thank you. I’ve never felt that it was the devil putting the guilt on me. I know Jesus loves me, as he loves all of us. And I know that he knows what lies in my heart better than even I myself do.

I just cannot and will not agree with the CC that my son’s lifestyle is wrong. I don’t like it and I’ve told him so, but I cannot change him and pray everyday that God grants me the compassion to accept him just the way he is.

I do NOT believe surrogacy is wrong. It takes a strong, loving woman to do that. And adoption is wonderful…I hope that he would opt to adopt before surrogacy. That very sad thing is, when/if he does have a child, how…how can he raise that child Catholic, knowing the Church does not accept his lifestyle. I doubt the child could even be baptized in the CC having 2 fathers!

I want to thank everyone here who has commented. I will read and re read everything several time, I think.

 

[PRmerger]

I will read and re read everything several time, I think.

:tiphat:

:console:

:hug1:

 

[EasterJoy]

Since I was never married in the Church, the Church never sees any of my marriages as real, therefore, how can I be commiting adultery? Adultery is when you are married and have sex with someone else.

The Church presumes marriages, even marriages contracted outside the Church, to be valid until demonstrated otherwise. This is true even with a defect of form. Until your good-faith marriage attempts are declared invalid, you are presumed to be married to one person and having sex with another.

Besides–would you say that different terminology would make a big difference? Either the man you are conducting yourself with as man and wife is someone that a well-formed conscience would legitimately tell you is your husband, or he’s not, right?

I can appreciate that the Lord will forgive an honest mistake based on a conscience that the Lord knows is the best-formed that you can do. If that is the case, even if your conduct is wrong, you would not be culpable. Still, to sin and not be culpable is like having an auto accident and not being culpable. Even when you’re not at fault, the damage is still there, and preserving you from the damage caused by sin is the ultimate goal of moral law. It isn’t rules given to bind, but rules given in order to give life. That is the point of correcting each other, not so the correctors can feel some superiority over the corrected–heaven forbid!

 

[EasterJoy]

Thank you. I’ve never felt that it was the devil putting the guilt on me…

This is a very good point. If you are feeling shame or if you are feeling resentment over moral law or if you are primarily feeling bad about yourself but not inclined to act in a different way, that is the devil talking. If you are feeling a desire to repent and do better or a desire to find out the way you ought to go and to do your best to go that way, then that is the work of a good conscience. A good conscience wants to please God and do what is right, but the Holy Spirit is an Advocate, not a prosecutor. The goal is to turn from sin, not to beat oneself up.

 

[EasterJoy]

Sorry, but I think any “religion” that spouts hatred toward anyone is not acceptable.

This is very true, provided that you do not think that telling people that they are sinning is hate speech. To tell someone that they are sub-human or hated by God for doing or believing the wrong thing is not according to the Gospel. Every soul is loved and wanted by God, so the goal of Christianity is not condemnation, but an appeal for repentance.

 

[Rau]

I just cannot and will not agree with the CC that my son’s lifestyle is wrong. I don’t like it and I’ve told him so, but I cannot change him and pray everyday that God grants me the compassion to accept him just the way he is.

You’ve stated your son is gay. Of course you should accept him, as does God and the Church. Neither rejects anyone. Please say what you mean by “lifestyle”? What about it don’t you like?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I’ve never felt that it was the devil putting the guilt on me.

You wouldn’t FEEL like it was the devil. The devil sounds like God. Especially for those of us, like myself, who had an inadequate father figure, the devil sounds like a dad who expects a lot of us, and won’t truly accept us until we do what he says.

But God accepts us NOW, as sinners. He died for sinners, not for saints. It is His acceptance that makes us acceptable.

So I respectfully disagree with EasterJoy. You, like me, have a dysfunctional way of relating to guilt. The guilt you are feeling is pushing you away from God, not toward Him. So you need to reject the guilt as a lie from the devil.

Of course, even then, you’re not perfect, and you need to be transformed by God. But this guilt is standing in the way of that transformation.

I know Jesus loves me, as he loves all of us. And I know that he knows what lies in my heart better than even I myself do.

I just cannot and will not agree with the CC that my son’s lifestyle is wrong. I don’t like it and I’ve told him so, but I cannot change him and pray everyday that God grants me the compassion to accept him just the way he is.

Perhaps you would be interested to know that I am, in some sense, gay. That is to say, if I were not Catholic, I would call myself a gay man. I am attracted to women – heck, I married one! – but I am more viscerally attracted to men. And yet I am faithful to my wife, and we are living out a fruitful and fulfilling marriage.

For the record, I agree with Francis that the Church has not been compassionate enough and loving enough toward gay people. This shortcoming of the Church grieves me.

But I don’t believe in false compassion. I don’t believe that, when our loved ones do something we consider wrong, we either have to reject them or accept their sins. Here’s what we do have to do. We need to recognize that we ourselves have done things seriously wrong, and that we want (sometimes desperately) to do other things that are seriously wrong. We need to show them that we hate the sin in ourselves, and yet love ourselves.

You can love your son deeply, honestly, from the heart, whether or not you accept his actions. Mind you, I’m not going to sit on a soapbox and tell you that his actions are wrong. But I have seen gay culture from the inside, and I don’t really have a ringing endorsement of the role that sexual activity plays in that culture. (Aside from the sex part, I don’t have a lot bad to say about gay culture, by the way). So I just don’t think that it will be healthy or helpful, most likely, for your son to have sex with other men.

As for intimacy with other men, yes, of course your son was made for that. Every man was made to be close and intimate with other men. Your son has always needed closeness with men, even when he was a child. He needs it now more than ever. But sex will not get him that intimacy, and it very well might stand in the way.

Hope this helps. I am praying for you and your son!

 

[Prodigal_Son]

This is a very good point. If you are feeling shame or if you are feeling resentment over moral law or if you are primarily feeling bad about yourself but not inclined to act in a different way, that is the devil talking. If you are feeling a desire to repent and do better or a desire to find out the way you ought to go and to do your best to go that way, then that is the work of a good conscience. A good conscience wants to please God and do what is right, but the Holy Spirit is an Advocate, not a prosecutor. The goal is to turn from sin, not to beat oneself up.

On second thought, I think I agree with this. But I still think the guilt Chizzywinks is feeling comes from the devil, because it seems to be drawing her away from the Church, not toward it.