Does anyone here, that believes in God, actually think that God accepts gay marriage?

[Sy_Noe]

Do you not see Jesus condemning sin? Forgiving people of their sin? Telling them to sin no more? Talking about the consequences of sin? Or do you just throw out anything about Jesus you personally don’t agree with–and think he went around accepting and affirming everyone regardless of their actions? He may have called everyone (inclusiveness) but he certainly didn’t affirm everyone in all their actions. What does it mean to love someone in your thinking?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Clearly not even every single mainline Christian denomination today however views homosexuality, gay marriage or SS unions exactly in the same sinful light as do Catholics. Some are known to support gay marriage or bless SS unions. It might go back I think to what another poster said about imperfect humans over time growing in their understanding of Scripture and interpretation. And if on my journey with HIm I maintained a certain faith in continued Catholic authority today, I’d be practicing your faith as do you, Mark. But thank you for your wishes of His peace and indeed the peace of Christ be with you as well.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I am concerned for the Methodists.

If I took everything in Scripture literally, I think I’d be concerned with all Christians. Those who believe He founded His Church upon Peter’s confession of Jesus being the Savior the Son of God and who believe the Church is His entire body of Christian believers. Including those Protestants who might even believe the Catholic Church strayed and His Church was in need of reformation. And also those who believe He found His Church upon Peter and who believe the Catholic Church is and remains the one and only true Church. I only say this because He also said “few” will enter into the eternal kingdom. And “few” is such a small number, not very many at all. So I’d be concerned with all as they strive to work out their salvation. Just a thought.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think there are two issues. There is matrimony, which is a sacrament of the Church and there is marriage, which is a legal institution. The govt regulates marriage…but the Church follows what they believe and teach are the directives of Jesus Christ.

So…I support gay marriage. Matrimony is in the hands of the Church who is to receive that sacrament.

This is not how the Church sees marriages contracted outside the Church, which under normal conditions the Church recognizes as valid, even if they are not sacramental. Gay marriage, in contrast, changes the view of humanity towards sexuality towards a view which is, objectively speaking, a lie.

By what kind of nonsense do we as citizens in a democracy say, “Hey, if the rest of you want to enshrine a lie into law, have at it”? How could it ever be ethical to be that apathetic towards the truth? Do we really think that divine law is so arbitrary that it only applies as a legality that binds only those in the Church?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Thank you. I’ve never felt that it was the devil putting the guilt on me. I know Jesus loves me, as he loves all of us. And I know that he knows what lies in my heart better than even I myself do.

I just cannot and will not agree with the CC that my son’s lifestyle is wrong. I don’t like it and I’ve told him so, but I cannot change him and pray everyday that God grants me the compassion to accept him just the way he is.

I do NOT believe surrogacy is wrong. It takes a strong, loving woman to do that. And adoption is wonderful…I hope that he would opt to adopt before surrogacy. That very sad thing is, when/if he does have a child, how…how can he raise that child Catholic, knowing the Church does not accept his lifestyle. I doubt the child could even be baptized in the CC having 2 fathers!

I want to thank everyone here who has commented. I will read and re read everything several time, I think.

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.” (Pope Francis)

 

[EasterJoy]

If I took everything in Scripture literally, I think I’d be concerned with all Christians. Those who believe He founded His Church upon Peter’s confession of Jesus being the Savior the Son of God and who believe the Church is His entire body of Christian believers. Including those Protestants who might even believe the Catholic Church strayed and His Church was in need of reformation. And also those who believe He found His Church upon Peter and who believe the Catholic Church is and remains the one and only true Church. I only say this because He also said “few” will enter into the eternal kingdom. And “few” is such a small number, not very many at all. So I’d be concerned with all as they strive to work out their salvation. Just a thought.

No, I don’t think you know what I mean. It is getting to the point that some preachers do not seem to take any of the Scriptures literally. The miracles and even the Resurrection are taught as metaphor. The Incarnation is taken as part of the “divinity of all men”. To believe that the Gospels truly depict anything supernatural as really having happened is considered by some Christians to be backward and childish. I mean that more and more the Gospel is being preached in a way that makes the Pascal Mystery irrelevant, if not nonsensical.

Some also strenuously avoid teaching the concept of sin, of repentance. If there are no serious sins, then there is no need for salvation. If suffering is always meaningless then the Cross is what? Another tragedy that befell a good man? If salvation is actually unnecessary to someone who has awakened to his or her inner divinity, if the truths into which one puts trust are constantly liable to revision, something too “personal” to have objective substance, then the faith is what?

 

[EasterJoy]

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.” (Pope Francis)

Yes, exactly. His words are not generally understood within the context of his whole view, however. (See post 136)

 

[EasterJoy]

Clearly not even every single mainline Christian denomination today however views homosexuality, gay marriage or SS unions exactly in the same sinful light as do Catholics. Some are known to support gay marriage or bless SS unions. It might go back I think to what another poster said about imperfect humans over time growing in their understanding of Scripture and interpretation. And if on my journey with HIm I maintained a certain faith in continued Catholic authority today, I’d be practicing your faith as do you, Mark. But thank you for your wishes of His peace and indeed the peace of Christ be with you as well.

“Today” is the key point. They are not teaching even what their own grandfathers taught, what the founders of their own seminaries taught. They are making it up as they go along. Does history teach us that all change in understanding is growth? It does not.

 

[Sy_Noe]

“Today” is the key point. They are not teaching even what their own grandfathers taught, what the founders of their own seminaries taught. They are making it up as they go along. Does history teach us that all change in understanding is growth? It does not.

I understand you would disagree with them. But in my walk I might give their scholarship more credit than “they are just making it up as they go”. I also don’t necessarily find history to be perfect. In any case peace EasterJoy in this time of Thanksgiving. :

 

[josh987654321]

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person.” (Pope Francis)

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this well.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.” 142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

lol, I mean no offense, but Sy Noe, I just had to clear that up, the amount of people who are using Pope Francis’ words (who is absolutely right btw in what he says, including what you quoted him on Sy Noe) to justify their support of same sex marriage despite the clear teachings of the Church (Who he is head of btw) is just astonishing to me.

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

Hi,

Id like to share with people here what I have learnt about this issue and ask about what they think of my take on it.

I have tried to keep it as short as possible so that people don’t “switch off” so to speak and not read it. Please read it and let me know what you think (where it may need improvement, where I may be wrong etc) I wont be offended, I simply wish to reach the truth on this issue of same sex marriage, thank you.

The first thing that comes to my mind with the existence of God, is that God must have created us male and female (as for evolution, I don’t believe we evolved from nothing) and as Genesis states.

I believe Jesus perfectly affirmed what a marriage was in these two passages -
Gospels:

**Matthew 19:4-6

4 Jesus answered, “Don’t you know that in the beginning the Creator made a man and a woman? 5 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. He becomes like one person with his wife. 6 Then they are no longer two people, but one. And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.”

Mark 10:6-9

6 But in the beginning God made a man and a woman. 7 That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. 8 He becomes like one person with his wife. Then they are no longer two people, but one. 9 And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together.”**

To me this makes absolute and perfect sense and I don’t know how marriage could be viewed any other way.

Following from this, I also believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality are sinful along with the Catholic Church, because I believe it means to use the bodies organs in a manner in which they were not designed to be used for.

Now, when it comes to viewing the sexual acts of homosexuality -

Leviticus say’s this -
Law of Moses:

**Leviticus 18:22

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13

13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.**

(I don’t view it like this, just using Leviticus to show similarities).

This is what Leviticus say’s about Adultery -
Law of Moses:

**Leviticus 18:16

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

Leviticus 20:10

10 “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.**

Jesus then fulfills the Old Testament in the New Testament Matthew 5:17-20 -
Gospel of John:

**John 8:3-11

A Woman Caught in Sin

3 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law of Moses brought in a woman who had been caught in bed with a man who wasn’t her husband. They made her stand in the middle of the crowd. 4 Then they said, “Teacher, this woman was caught sleeping with a man who isn’t her husband. 5 The Law of Moses teaches that a woman like this should be stoned to death! What do you say?”

6 They asked Jesus this question, because they wanted to test him and bring some charge against him. But Jesus simply bent over and started writing on the ground with his finger.

7 They kept on asking Jesus about the woman. Finally, he stood up and said, “If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone at her!” 8 Once again he bent over and began writing on the ground. 9 The people left one by one, beginning with the oldest. Finally, Jesus and the woman were there alone.

10 Jesus stood up and asked her, “Where is everyone? Isn’t there anyone left to accuse you?”

11 “No sir,” the woman answered.

Then Jesus told her, “I am not going to accuse you either. You may go now, but don’t sin anymore.” **

I believe that the sexual acts of homosexuality should be seen likewise.

I would never throw stones at a homosexual who gave into such desires, but I will be in opposition when they try to claim such acts as righteous and just, which is what I believe they are trying to do with same sex marriage.

“The deaf who deny they are deaf will never hear; the sinners who deny there is sin deny thereby the remedy of sin, and thus cut themselves off forever from Him Who came to redeem.” - Fulton J. Sheen

I believe Homosexuals are no different to any one of us, I believe not one person doesn’t have an immoral desire (including me as a heterosexual and God created me also) and that our desires are not who we are, because we make that choice.

I believe that the morality of the act doesn’t change simply because of our desire for it, because I think that would be like wrecklessly giving into our every desire, throwing our hands up in the air and saying “If God didn’t want me to do this, than he wouldn’t have given me the desire to do it.”

“Telling us to obey instinct is like telling us to obey ‘people.’ People say different things: so do instincts. Our instincts are at war… Each instinct, if you listen to it, will claim to be gratified at the expense of the rest.” - C.S. Lewis

Please continue to next post -

 

[josh987654321]

Continued from above post -

I would also like to ask my fellow Christians who support same sex marriage, how it is that you are loving your homosexual brothers and sisters by advocating sin (the sexual acts of homosexuality) for them?
Gospel of Mark:

Mark 12:29-31

29 Jesus answered, “The most important one says: ‘People of Israel, you have only one Lord and God. 30 You must love him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.’ 31 The second most important commandment says: ‘Love others as much as you love yourself.’ No other commandment is more important than these.”

How will you answer the Lord come judgement day when he say’s “You knew it was wrong, why did you promote this lifestyle (sexual acts of homosexuality) for your homosexual brothers and sisters? didn’t I command you to love your neighbours?”
Gospel of Matthew:

**Matthew 6:24

Money

24 You cannot be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than the other. You cannot serve both God and money.**

This is so true, we cannot serve both God and our wordly desires, whether it be money, or our sexuality.

And finally, as Pope Francis say’s, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this well.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359
Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

And just to conclude with this quote -
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen:

"Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.

It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin.

The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth.

It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.

The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.

Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.

Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment.

Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly."

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Prodigal_Son]

A child in a loving home is what’s important, be it a single parent, parents of opposite sex or parents of the same sex. I’d much rather see a xhild adopted by a gay couple (which include a lesbian couple!) than spend his or her life in foster care.

Well, I’d rather see that too. But it doesn’t make it anything near ideal. As a man whose father essentially died (long story) when I was six, I know how strange and bewildering it is for a boy to grow up without a dad. So, no, I can’t endorse gay parents as in any way exemplary or ideal, however loving they are.

That is, unless the gay parent is married to a person of the opposite sex.

 

[pete_29]

Continued from above post -

I would also like to ask my fellow Christians who support same sex marriage, how it is that you are loving your homosexual brothers and sisters by advocating sin (the sexual acts of homosexuality) for them?

How will you answer the Lord come judgement day when he say’s “You knew it was wrong, why did you promote this lifestyle (sexual acts of homosexuality) for your homosexual brothers and sisters? didn’t I command you to love your neighbours?”

This is so true, we cannot serve both God and our wordly desires, whether it be money, or our sexuality.

And finally, as Pope Francis say’s, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this well.

And just to conclude with this quote -

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thank you for posting it.

 

[EasterJoy]

I understand you would disagree with them. But in my walk I might give their scholarship more credit than “they are just making it up as they go”. I also don’t necessarily find history to be perfect. In any case peace EasterJoy in this time of Thanksgiving. :

You can take out the “just”, if that sounds that they are being too flippant about it, but I mean that they are forming a changeable teaching that is based on their own authority. I mean that they feel free to overrule the teaching handed down to them, some even to the point of denying that the Lord literally rose from the dead.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains this well.

lol, I mean no offense, but Sy Noe, I just had to clear that up, the amount of people who are using Pope Francis’ words (who is absolutely right btw in what he says, including what you quoted him on Sy Noe) to justify their support of same sex marriage despite the clear teachings of the Church (Who he is head of btw) is just astonishing to me.

Thank you for reading
Josh

Josh, no offense taken. Of course the religious teaching authorities you place faith in oppose SS marriage. There are other Christians along their walks who have a different faith understanding. And obviously with these differences not everyone can ultimately be right on everything. I think though what I’m going to strive to do today is to heed the words of Pope Francis and not talk about abortion or homosexuality all the time.

 

[Chizzywinks]

How will you answer the Lord come judgement day when he say’s “You knew it was wrong, why did you promote this lifestyle (sexual acts of homosexuality) for your homosexual brothers and sisters? didn’t I command you to love your neighbours?”

I don’t know. But I do know that if I condemn my son, do not accept him as he is and reject any partner he may one day wish to unite with, then I will lose my son. As long as he is happy (yes, I want him to be happy! Isn’t that terrible!) and he is a good person, with a good heart…shows compassion to people…then I will always stand with him in support. To do anything else would severely damage our relationship. It will be hard for me, but I have to be supportive. He is my flesh and blood, my child. If no one reading this has a gay child, then honestly, you have no idea what you would do if you found out your son or daughter was gay. You may say you know, but trust me…you do not.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

But of course you shouldn’t reject his partner! You can love and respect his partner, and invite his partner gladly as a guest in your home, without sanctioning any sin. The Church does not ask you to reject anyone! The Good News is that you can live side by side with them, loving them, and allowing the Holy Spirit to convict them. It is not your role to judge.

This does not mean that you should condone homosexual sex. But you don’t have to be abrasive, and you don’t have to make your son’s time around you a living hell. Clarify where you stand, and leave it there.

“Son, I don’t think homosexual sex is good or helpful for you or your partner. But I love you, and I promise not to harp on this issue. If you ever want to talk to me about it, I’m all ears, and I’m not looking for ways to judge you. Now could you please pass the potatoes?”

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

OK, but what we will believe is our choice, our decision. Otherwise, there could be no merit in believing or not believing anything. How else could the Lord have said “Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe”?

If it comes down to a difference between what the Church teaches is right and what seems right to you, which do you choose to believe?

In this case, the Church.

I understood the question to be asking for a personal view based on our human reasoning and understanding, not necessarily what we believe/don’t believe because we follow a particular religion.

 

[EasterJoy]

In this case, the Church.

I understood the question to be asking for a personal view based on our human reasoning and understanding, not necessarily what we believe/don’t believe because we follow a particular religion.

The question asked what we thought God’s opinion of something was. What do we know of the mind of God that is based on our human reasoning and understanding that is not in keeping with revealed truth? On what could we base a personal view, if not on the faith that is preached to us?

But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? And how can people preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring (the) good news!” But not everyone has heeded the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what was heard from us?” Thus faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ. Rom. 10:14-17

 

[Rivers23]

I came to this topic specifically because on December 1st there will be a referendum in my country about gay marriage. I’ll vote against it because I don’t think two people of the same gender can raise a child as emotionally and psychologically developed as a child raised by the opposite genders, for many reasons. Also, one of the reasons for voting against is that voting yes would mark another step towards secularization and rampant liberalism. No gays have tried to isolate themselves from that worldview so far, so I have no reason to believe they will endorse traditional values, or raise their kids in that manner.

As for what the Bible tells us, we must be careful. We mustn’t hate, we mustn’t despise, but we have the right to stand our moral ground. Homosexuality is a sin, homosexual people should abstain if they’re to be a member of the Church. They should accept their biological inability to have children. To be clear, many heterosexual have strayed when it comes to sexual relations, they are worse than a homosexual who abstains. I’m not against homosexual couples having inheritance and hospital visitation rights.

The thing I would like to emphasize is that the Church should condemn all sexual deviancy, a person is not to be condemned based on sexual attraction only, we are all under temptation daily in this modern world. So, I see no reason to reject a homosexual that is chaste. But still, I personally would not prefer that they raise children. Among other things, gay marriages have high dissolution rates and kids raised by single parents are twice as likely to develop all kinds of problems compared to kids raised by two parents. Plus, I don’t think kindly of artificial insemination and surrogate mothers, which gay couples would use to have kids.