Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

Ok, rinnie here is what I posted before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

This seems pretty clear to me. But let me put it another way. I do not believe that there is a place where wicked souls go after death. NOW. The wicked and righteous go into the grave to await the second comming and the resurrection. When Jesus returns the second time, He will recieve the righteous unto Himself. Jn.14:1-3, 1Thess.4:13-17 and other places. At this time the wicked that have died before remain in the grave. The wicked that are alive are killed by the brightness of Jesus comming. The wicked will remain in the grave for one thousand years. during which time Satan will be bound on this earth for that same thousand year period. After this thousand year period, the wicked will be raised to recieve their punishment. At this time Satan will convince the wicked that they can take God’s holy city, The New Jerusalem, and the battle of Armageddon will occur. Of coarse they lose and are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be burned up. The results of this burnning is that they are destroyed FOREVER. They will not live forever in torment. They will die. And this death, known as “the second death” will be forever. Peace and tranquility will pervaid the universe and sin will not be allowed to rise again.

Okay Richard thank-you for being more clear. But we have a bigger problem now then. Did Jesus or did Jesus not destroy Death. Did he take away death by his death on the cross and does the Soul live on forever?

Because according to the word of God by his death and res. you have set us free you are the Savior of the World. Now if you are saying that there is no everlasing life then Jesus died for nothing. The devil won and the death of the body is also the death of the soul.

But the word of GOd states that the soul lives forever. Either in Eternal light with Christ. or Eternal Darkness w/o Christ. Now did Jesus take away death or didn’t he. Because you are saying there is a second death?

If you are saying the second death is death of the soul which is eternal separation from Christ I will agree with you. But that is not what you are saying. you are saying the soul does not live forever in hell. God says it does.

Death of the body is the first death. Death of the soul is the second death which is HELL. Not being with God. Death of the body is the first death. Life of the Soul is HEAVEN living in Complete happness with God. Now where is this scripture that says that the new heaven and the new earth does away with Hell? You keep referring to 21:4 where it says those who will be with God will have no more pain etc.

But then what happens when you continue on to 21:8 in Rev. Where it talks about he cowards unfaithful unchaste etc. It says they will be in the burning pool of fire which is what we call the second death. Death of the Soul! Hell! Where in scripture does it say that this fire will end???

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Okay Richard thank-you for being more clear. But we have a bigger problem now then. Did Jesus or did Jesus not destroy Death. Did he take away death by his death on the cross and does the Soul live on forever?

Because according to the word of God by his death and res. you have set us free you are the Savior of the World. Now if you are saying that there is no everlasing life then Jesus died for nothing. The devil won and the death of the body is also the death of the soul.

Rinnie, take a look at this verse.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Some say that this one verse is the gospel message in a nutshell. This verse clearly designates two classes of people 1) Those that perish and 2) Those that have eternal life. Now we have a pretty good idea of what eternal life is, right? It’s life without end in communion with our beloved Jesus. Those that perish would be the opposite of those with everlasting life, right? Perish means that they would be FOREVER DEAD.

But the word of GOd states that the soul lives forever. Either in Eternal light with Christ. or Eternal Darkness w/o Christ. Now did Jesus take away death or didn’t he. Because you are saying there is a second death?

Well, I’m not saying there is a second death. The bible is.

1.Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
2.Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the **second death **hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

3.Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

4.Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You will have to show me the chapter and verse that says the soul lives forever. What I see is that the soul dies.

Ez.18: 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ez.18: 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

If you are saying the second death is death of the soul which is eternal separation from Christ I will agree with you. But that is not what you are saying. you are saying the soul does not live forever in hell. God says it does.

This from a previous post
There is no doubt that the wicked are destroyed. Rom. 6:23 they suffer death Job21:30 doom (destruction) “shall perish” Ps.37:20"perish"

Mal.4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Burned up sounds like there won’t be much left.

Ps.37:38"shall be destroyed together" Ps.37:20 will “vanish away” Ps.37:9 “shall be cut off” Ps.62:3 “shall be slain” Ps.145:20 God shall “destroy” them Ps.21:9 "fire shall devour them

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Death of the body is the first death. Death of the soul is the second death which is HELL. Not being with God. Death of the body is the first death. Life of the Soul is HEAVEN living in Complete happness with God. Now where is this scripture that says that the new heaven and the new earth does away with Hell? You keep referring to 21:4 where it says those who will be with God will have no more pain etc.

Hell in many cases in the bible is used to denote the grave. This is one of them
Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Cor.15
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Death and the grave will be thrown into the lake of fire along with the wicked where they will be burned up, destroyed, be as stubble, will be no more forever.

But then what happens when you continue on to 21:8 in Rev. Where it talks about he cowards unfaithful unchaste etc. It says they will be in the burning pool of fire which is what we call the second death. Death of the Soul! Hell! Where in scripture does it say that this fire will end???

Malachi 4
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Isaiah47
14Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

If the wicked are as stubble, they are burned up and the fire has gone out and as it says in Isaiah47 “there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.”

 

[Madaglan]

God does not annihilate the souls of the damned.

A number of Christian Fathers have taught that the fire of Hell is the fire of God’s love, which the damned reject and suffer.

I believe it’s St. John Chrysostom who interprets 1 Corinthians 3:15 (“If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”) as meaning that the damned suffer the loss of heaven, but their souls are nonetheless saved, since God, being all-good, would not completely annihilate what He has created.

 

[MrPDGee]

The best way to find out is to see what God says about it. Since Jesus is God, come in the flesh, and since “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” [Heb 1:1-2] it is inarguably correct to take our understanding of “the damned” from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said:

• The punishment of the ungodly is everlasting (Matt 25:41-46)
• In hell, the worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished (Mark 9:42-47)
• Hell is a real place, and those in hell are in constant torment (Luke 16:19-31)
  This of course is in complete concert to the revelation of the fate of the ungodly prophesied by Daniel when he wrote Daniel 12:1-3.
  And the fulfillment of this is seen in the revelation given to John when he writes of what is to come in Revelation 20:11-15

So: No annihilation.
But there is:Everlasting separation from God. Everlasting torment.

Something to avoid at any cost(Mark 9:42-47)

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[SIGN]Rom 3:3-5[/SIGN]

 

[rinnie]

The best way to find out is to see what God says about it. Since Jesus is God, come in the flesh, and since “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” [Heb 1:1-2] it is inarguably correct to take our understanding of “the damned” from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said:

• The punishment of the ungodly is everlasting (Matt 25:41-46)
• In hell, the worm does not die and the fire is not extinguished (Mark 9:42-47)
• Hell is a real place, and those in hell are in constant torment (Luke 16:19-31)
  This of course is in complete concert to the revelation of the fate of the ungodly prophesied by Daniel when he wrote Daniel 12:1-3.
  And the fulfillment of this is seen in the revelation given to John when he writes of what is to come in Revelation 20:11-15

So: No annihilation.
But there is:Everlasting separation from God. Everlasting torment.

Something to avoid at any cost(Mark 9:42-47)

---

[SIGN]Rom 3:3-5[/SIGN]

Richard read the scritpure that was given to you here. Especially the punishment of the ungodly is EVERLASTING. How do you argue with that.

You seem to continue to say that it is Gods fault that there is everlasting torment. But why do you say that. Richard do you not see that it not only happens in the next world it happnes here everyday.

Look at the people Richard who refuse the love of God, who refuse to accept him and live in torment every single day. Could you even imagine to think that you are truly on your own in this world and there is no guardian angel looking out for you, that there is no God up above watching out for you, who can come at any moment and will not let you take any more then you can truly handle. Is that not a present torment.

To not have his love and Grace in your heart, to only carry around hate for others, and to know that you are also hated because of the hate that you carry around and how you go out of your way to destroy lives. Richard these people do exist. They are as Jesus told them from their father the devil.

But they live this way because they choose to live this way. Evil does exist Richard. I know that as a Christian you believe that there is good in everyone. I want to believe that also. But unfortunately there are people out there who you and I could not even imagine with pure evil thoughts that given the chance will put those sick thoughts into play.

Just put on the news, pick up a paper. How people will take kids, sexually abuse them, and then kill them. This is hell on earth Richard. But yes God will take that Child into heaven, but as he said the person who hurt that Child, it is better for them that they were never born.

These people will never repent Richard, or be sorry. If they are sorry it is only for one reason, and that is they did not get to kill more. OR abuse more. They will laugh at you and tell you there is no good, there is no eternal life with God in heaven. There is no God. And in a way Richard they are right, because the devil works in half truths’s. ANd for them there is No God. There really isn’t. They do not fear God. Because if they did they would have good in them. There is never going to be a God for them because as Jesus said you do not know me. You are of your father the Devil.

But trust me Richard don’t let anyone every fool you that there is no everlasing UN-happiness because there is. You get what you asked for from God. IF you want him then you live according to his commamdes. If you want evil you live evil. And in the end you receive the evil you grew.

You plant a tree Richard and spray it, and water it and take care of it you get fresh fruit. You let it go and let it die you get rotton fruit. That is life also Richard.

 

[rinnie]

God does not annihilate the souls of the damned.

A number of Christian Fathers have taught that the fire of Hell is the fire of God’s love, which the damned reject and suffer.

I believe it’s St. John Chrysostom who interprets 1 Corinthians 3:15 (“If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”) as meaning that the damned suffer the loss of heaven, but their souls are nonetheless saved, since God, being all-good, would not completely annihilate what He has created.

What you are quoting Madaglan is the scripture for Purgatory. Richard also is getting confused on this. There is a difference between the final cleansing which means you are deemed worthy for heaven but need to be made holy, And the scripture that states you will be separated from God forever.

This place cannot be hell because if it was now could it be everlasting torment.

Let me ask you a question, Do you really believe that satan is going to go to heaven? Did God or did God not also create Satan? There is NO good in Satan. Jesus said when he comes he will separate the goats and the sheep.

People want to refuse the truth about purgatory. They do not see what a great Mercy this is from God. They see Purgatory as hell and punishment. They do not see that it cannot be hell because hell is Eternal Separation from God. SO if this scripture is hell how can there be mercy and souls being saved w/o God.

So you have to show me where hell is Tempory separation from God and you will see that scripture does not teach that. Purgatory is not even tempory separation from God because God is there is save us. He is with us in our suffering to help us become Holy because we did not complete that here before death.

I do not understand how people can reject purgatory but then turn around and say that this is hell. THis place cannot be hell do you or do you not agree that hell is for the damned. And hell is eternal separation from God? And if you agree with that, then you must show me how you can have eternal separation from God and still be saved w/o his Grace.

 

[benidict]

Anybody?

No

 

[rinnie]

God does not annihilate the souls of the damned.

A number of Christian Fathers have taught that the fire of Hell is the fire of God’s love, which the damned reject and suffer.

I believe it’s St. John Chrysostom who interprets 1 Corinthians 3:15 (“If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire”) as meaning that the damned suffer the loss of heaven, but their souls are nonetheless saved, since God, being all-good, would not completely annihilate what He has created.

One more point if I may. You said that hell is the fire that is God’s love that the damned REJECT and suffer. Now I have another question what happens to FREE WILL. Does God take free will off of us? Because if we reject him we do not want his Love. Are you saying he forces it on us?? Something is wrong with this thinking do you not agree?

Now here is something else I cannot understand if the damned suffer the loss of heaven, which let me add I agree with completely where do the souls who reject God and his love Go? Because there is only heaven and hell correct??

Purgatory is not a place. Purgatory is a process that you described. But when we die our souls are separated from our body. Our souls are what are judged not our body’s do you or do you not agree? The only difference is on the last day our Souls will be put back into our body’s and we will be raised from the grave and walk again on this earth.

But as Jesus said it will be the New Heaven and the New Earth. And the evil will be thrown down into the earth into the everlasting torment with satan. Then there will be no death, no suffering and we will live with our loved ones and we will all live in a world with complete love and happiness. A happiness that could not be imagined in this world.

My Dad said that we will live in paradise as Adam and Eve began. he said that is the life God wanted for us, before Adam and Eve sinned. No heavy burden, he said labor will be light. And anyone who works can truly agree that work can be truly a Joy when you love the work you do. That is what paradise will be. A work because we must be busy and have a goal in life, but whatever we will be doing we will LOVE doing it.

 

[rinnie]

Richard explain this to me.

Rev. 14:8 According to the teaching’s of the Apostles The wine of God’s fury is taken from

Jer. 25:15-16 49:

Richard read Rev. 20:10 The devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fre and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER. Is forever and ever not another word for ETERNAL?

Read on The pool of the fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. But if you are written in the book of life you are saved by your Baptism and by the Sacraments left to us by Christ in his Church.

Now lets go back to the teachings of Christ and his death on the cross. What did he say. He said there is NO second death for all who believe in me. Did Jesus not take away Death? Did Jesus not beat the devil.

You need to really read Rev 20 Where it is said the dead were judged according to their deeds. ANYONE who was not written in the BOOK OF LIFE was thrown into the pool of fire. Again Jesus said forever and ever.

But there is only a second death only for those who deny Christ. Because what does Baptism do? It takes away DEATH. Jesus told us himself do not be afraid of death of the body, be afraid of death of the soul.

If you are written in the book of life you WILL continue to REV. 21 You will be the new creation. That is the purpose Richard of the Cross to save those who accept the word of God, DO what he commands. Eat this bread drink this cup, confess your sin, obey my commands so that you may have ETERNAL LIFE.

Jesus says if you DO NOT eat this bread drink this cup there is not life in you.

Read on Rev. tells you plain as day the saved will not receive the second death as for the ones he describes in Rev. 21:8 It tells you plain as day there will be people who will not be saved. Simply because they did not accept him. It describes these people in 12:8

Read on Richard it says the Treasure and wealth of the nations will be brought there. This is heaven Richard. But nothing UNCLEAN WILL ENTER THERE. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s BOOK OF LIFE.

These people that are unclean have to exist Richard or God would not say it is so. And they will not be found in the new heaven and the new earth. Because Rev 22:3 tells us Nothing accursed will be found there ANYMORE. The throne of God and the Lamb will be in it and his servants will worship HIM. Night will be no more for the Lord shall give them light and they shall reign FOREVER AND EVER.

That is why Richard it will be a new Earth because on this earth not all worship GOD here. Jesus said there is no LUKEWARM. You are either WITH me or you are AGAINST me. So you either worship the devil or God. There in no LUKE WARM because Christ told us so. So those who do not accept Christ will not see the new earth. Those who are not OF Christ have to be against him do you not agree. And what did he say of those who are not OF HIM. They will not be written into the book of Life. SO who is their god Richard?

So if you reject Christ you have to accept satan. There is no other way. That is why we are here, we have untl that last breath to accept him.

 

[rinnie]

So the answer is no. They will not cease to exist.

Rev. 19:3 Alleluia smoke will rise from her forever and ever. Again read Rev 19:20 The beast was caught and with it the false prophet who had performed in its sight the signs by which he led astray those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who had WORSHIPED its image. They were thrown alive into the the fiery pool burning with sulfur.

Put that together the smoke wil rise forever and ever. How can the smoke cease. Then souls cannot cease either. This is the proof hell exists and is Eternal. THere will be no end to the fire because where there is SMOKE there has to be FIRE!! Where there is FIRE there has to be SMOKE.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

So the answer is no. They will not cease to exist.

Rev. 19:3 Alleluia smoke will rise from her forever and ever. Again read Rev 19:20 The beast was caught and with it the false prophet who had performed in its sight the signs by which he led astray those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who had WORSHIPED its image. They were thrown alive into the the fiery pool burning with sulfur.

Put that together the smoke wil rise forever and ever. How can the smoke cease. Then souls cannot cease either. This is the proof hell exists and is Eternal. THere will be no end to the fire because where there is SMOKE there has to be FIRE!! Where there is FIRE there has to be SMOKE.

The smoke rising up forever merely means it goes up out of sight. I have given you numerous passages that flat out state that the wicked will be destroyed. If you wish not to accept that,it’s up to you. By the way we are not saved by baptism or any sacrament, but by faith in the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[rinnie]

The smoke rising up forever merely means it goes up out of sight. I have given you numerous passages that flat out state that the wicked will be destroyed. If you wish not to accept that,it’s up to you. By the way we are not saved by baptism or any sacrament, but by faith in the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Then Richard why does scripture state in Rev:15 OUTSIDE are the dogs the sorcers the unchaste the murders the idol-worchipers and all who love and practice deceit. How do you explain that?

And by the way we are not saved by Baptism? We are saved by faith? Here we go again Richard round and round. If we are saved by faith then that means Grace is meaningless. Come on RIchard.

We are saved by the Grace of God. The Sacraments are an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. There is no faith without Grace and there is no works w/o grace and faith w/o Grace and works is fruitless.

So how can Grace not save us Richard. Because you said the Sacraments do not save us and Sacraments are Gods Grace.

 

[rinnie]

The smoke rising up forever merely means it goes up out of sight. I have given you numerous passages that flat out state that the wicked will be destroyed. If you wish not to accept that,it’s up to you. By the way we are not saved by baptism or any sacrament, but by faith in the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But where does scripture state that the smoke will be out of site?

ANd by the way Richard look what you just wrote I am the way …No man cometh unto the Father w/o Me. How can we come to the Father w/o the Grace of Christ?

How can faith save you without the Grace of God to even have faith???:nope:

 

[rinnie]

By the way Richard here is the scripture.

Eph 2:5 By Grace you have been saved. How can you say that the Sacraments which are a free Grace from Christ cannot save us?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

By the way Richard here is the scripture.

Eph 2:5 By Grace you have been saved. How can you say that the Sacraments which are a free Grace from Christ cannot save us?

Rinnie, what do you think grace means? Is it not the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ? So when I say we are saved by faith, what I am saying is that we are saved by faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ manifest in the cross. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Then Richard why does scripture state in Rev:15 OUTSIDE are the dogs the sorcers the unchaste the murders the idol-worchipers and all who love and practice deceit. How do you explain that?

Here’s Rev.15
Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Where do you see anything that talks of “the dogs the sorcers the unchaste the murders the idol-worchipers and all who love and practice deceit.”

And by the way we are not saved by Baptism? We are saved by faith? Here we go again Richard round and round. If we are saved by faith then that means Grace is meaningless. Come on RIchard.

We are saved by the Grace of God. The Sacraments are an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. There is no faith without Grace and there is no works w/o grace and faith w/o Grace and works is fruitless.

So how can Grace not save us Richard. Because you said the Sacraments do not save us and Sacraments are Gods Grace.

The grace imputed to the salvation of the soul is through faith in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ. SACRAMENTS HAVE NO POWER AT ALL TO IMPART GRACE.

 

[firstmode]

The Apocalypse of Peter, deemed canonical by the Muratorian fragment, earliest new testament list in existence, 100 to 130 AD

18 And angels ran round about them there. 19 And the glory of them that dwelt there was all equal, and with one voice they praised the Lord God, rejoicing in that place.

20 The Lord saith unto us: This is the place of your leaders (or, high priests), the righteous men.

21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them.

23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them.

24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery.

And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place.

25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement.

26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock () and caused abortion.

27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.

28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness.

29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses.

30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. [This is suggested by the LXX of two passages in Job: xli. 30, his bed is of sharp spits; viii. 17, on an heap of stones doth he rest, and shall live in the midst of gravel-stones.] And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God.

31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury.

32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman.

33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment…

34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God.

 

[firstmode]

Well, not exactly rin. Here’s my comment again.

What I am saying here is that the bible says that the souls that are damned are destroyed forever. That it is inconsistent for a God that is love to torture His beloved creation for all eternity. And Rev. 21:4 says that sorrow pain and crying will be done away with and an eternally burning hell with souls writhing in agony cannot exist and Rev.21:4 also be true.

Why is it impossible for you to think God enacts vengeance? Maybe you do not know what love really is and God does know what love really is?

Psalm 149

*1 Praise the Lord!

***Sing to the Lord a new song.
******Sing his praises in the assembly of the faithful.

*2 O Israel, rejoice in your Maker.
******O people of Jerusalem,[a] exult in your King.
*3 Praise his name with dancing,
******accompanied by tambourine and harp.
*4 For the Lord delights in his people;
******he crowns the humble with victory.
*5 Let the faithful rejoice that he honors them.
******Let them sing for joy as they lie on their beds.

*6 Let the praises of God be in their mouths,
******and a sharp sword in their hands—
*7 to execute vengeance on the nations
******and punishment on the peoples,
*8 to bind their kings with shackles
******and their leaders with iron chains,
*9 to execute the judgment written against them.
******This is the glorious privilege of his faithful ones.

***Praise the Lord!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Why is it impossible for you to think God enacts vengeance? Maybe you do not know what love really is and God does know what love really is?

Psalm 149

*1 Praise the Lord!

***Sing to the Lord a new song.
******Sing his praises in the assembly of the faithful.

*2 O Israel, rejoice in your Maker.
******O people of Jerusalem,[a] exult in your King.
*3 Praise his name with dancing,
******accompanied by tambourine and harp.
*4 For the Lord delights in his people;
******he crowns the humble with victory.
*5 Let the faithful rejoice that he honors them.
******Let them sing for joy as they lie on their beds.

*6 Let the praises of God be in their mouths,
******and a sharp sword in their hands—
*7 to execute vengeance on the nations
******and punishment on the peoples,
*8 to bind their kings with shackles
******and their leaders with iron chains,
*9 to execute the judgment written against them.
******This is the glorious privilege of his faithful ones.

***Praise the Lord!

I do not think it impossible for God to seek vengence against the wicked and I don’t believe that I said that. What I do think is impossible is that our loving God would maintain a place of eternal torment for the indescressions of the blink we call life. It is clear from scripture that there will be varying degrees of punishment before final anihalation, but that anihalation is non the less assured.

Maybe I don’t know what the love of God really is, but who in this mortal shell really does? I have felt first hand the love of God and I think that I have a pretty good idea tho.