Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

Here’s Rev.15
Revelation 15
1And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

5And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Where do you see anything that talks of “the dogs the sorcers the unchaste the murders the idol-worchipers and all who love and practice deceit.”

The grace imputed to the salvation of the soul is through faith in the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ. SACRAMENTS HAVE NO POWER AT ALL TO IMPART GRACE.

Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God. Are you saying that we can enter heaven w/o this Grace which is by the way one of the Sacraments.

You don;t feel the Eucharist is a Grace from God. You do not agree that we must eat and drink the blood of Christ for eternal LIfe. By the way the Eucharist is a Sacrament.

Marriage is a union that is between two people and God and it is also a sacrament made possible by the Grace of God.

Lets start with those 3 if we may. Are you saying that the Eucharist, Baptism and Marriage are all possible without the Grace of God. IF so why does Marriage say what God has joined together?

 

[rinnie]

I do not think it impossible for God to seek vengence against the wicked and I don’t believe that I said that. What I do think is impossible is that our loving God would maintain a place of eternal torment for the indescressions of the blink we call life. It is clear from scripture that there will be varying degrees of punishment before final anihalation, but that anihalation is non the less assured.

Maybe I don’t know what the love of God really is, but who in this mortal shell really does? I have felt first hand the love of God and I think that I have a pretty good idea tho.

What about the devil then Richard? You are saying he is getting into heaven? IF not where is he going. And where in the bible does Christ talk about these degrees you are talking about.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, take a look at this verse.
Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Some say that this one verse is the gospel message in a nutshell. This verse clearly designates two classes of people 1) Those that perish and 2) Those that have eternal life. Now we have a pretty good idea of what eternal life is, right? It’s life without end in communion with our beloved Jesus. Those that perish would be the opposite of those with everlasting life, right? Perish means that they would be FOREVER DEAD.

Well, I’m not saying there is a second death. The bible is.

1.Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
2.Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the **second death **hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

3.Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

4.Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

You will have to show me the chapter and verse that says the soul lives forever. What I see is that the soul dies.

Ez.18: 4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ez.18: 20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

This from a previous post
There is no doubt that the wicked are destroyed. Rom. 6:23 they suffer death Job21:30 doom (destruction) “shall perish” Ps.37:20"perish"

Mal.4:1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Burned up sounds like there won’t be much left.

Ps.37:38"shall be destroyed together" Ps.37:20 will “vanish away” Ps.37:9 “shall be cut off” Ps.62:3 “shall be slain” Ps.145:20 God shall “destroy” them Ps.21:9 "fire shall devour them

Exactly Richard the second death is death of the soul. Which means eternal separation from God. But if you believe in God and you follow his commands which another Sacrament is the Sacrament of Repentance you can be saved. Jesus said he took away death if you believe in him and do his will. But if you believe in him and do his will you will not suffer the second death which as scripture tells us is death of the soul.

 

[rinnie]

The smoke rising up forever merely means it goes up out of sight. I have given you numerous passages that flat out state that the wicked will be destroyed. If you wish not to accept that,it’s up to you. By the way we are not saved by baptism or any sacrament, but by faith in the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God.
Jn. 14: 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Grace is a Sacrament Richard. You said we are not saved by Baptism or any Sacrament. You said we are saved by faith.

Again I disagree with you. We are saved by the Grace of God that was given to us and made possible for us by the Sacrifice of the Son Of God.

Without that Grace from God nothing would be possible. You are the one who said we are not saved by Grace. Baptism etc all of the Sacraments are Saving Grace from God.

Will our faith save us? No. Faith alone will not Save us. The scripture will tell you faith without words are fruitless. Grace from God is what saves Us. And by his grace we gain faith and by his grace we have the power to Do works and when you put the Grace of God together with the faith that is given through that Grace and USE that Grace and Faith together to do his work that is what saves us. BUt nothing is possible without the Grace of God.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie, what do you think grace means? Is it not the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ? So when I say we are saved by faith, what I am saying is that we are saved by faith in the saving grace of Jesus Christ manifest in the cross. Do you disagree with this?

Yes we are saved by grace and it is this Grace that is given to us that we can have faith. Without Grace from God faith is not even possible. But you said that grace from God wont save me Faith will.

I can have all the faith in the world. But will my faith save me? No my faith cannot save me. Grace is what saves me. To have faith is to believe. Do you believe that the devil believes in Christ? You bet he does.

God gives me Grace and with this grace I can acquire faith if I choose. But even if I have faith it cannot save me without the Sacraments. Unless of course I am free from sin and never sin.

But that is not possible. Tell me Richard do you have sin? How can you have sin and enter heaven? Do you have faith? Is faith enough? Faith cannot be enough because we all have faith but still fall from the Grace given to us from God when we sin.

It is by Confession and repenting a GRACE from God by the way and also a Sacrament that saves us not our faith. If our faith were enough we would not fall from the Grace that God gave us.

But by his death on the Cross he made possible the Sacraments which are his Grace that we do not deserve but can reunite us with him once again. It is this Grace that must be given that works together with faith.

But if you have faith but do not use this faith it is worthless and will not save you. You must combine faith with works that can only be possible with the Grace from God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God. Are you saying that we can enter heaven w/o this Grace which is by the way one of the Sacraments.

You really need to start reading my posts a little closer. These conclusions you are comming up with have nothing to do with what I posted. How do you get this “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.” from anything that I have posted?

You don;t feel the Eucharist is a Grace from God. You do not agree that we must eat and drink the blood of Christ for eternal LIfe. By the way the Eucharist is a Sacrament.

That’s right, I do not believe that we get the salvic grace of the cross in any other way than through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Marriage is a union that is between two people and God and it is also a sacrament made possible by the Grace of God.

As far as I can see marraige has nothing to do with grace.

Lets start with those 3 if we may. Are you saying that the Eucharist, Baptism and Marriage are all possible without the Grace of God. IF so why does Marriage say what God has joined together?

Rinnie, my definition of grace is The unmerited gift of salvation manifested in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Your three examples are 1) Baptism. Baptism I believe is the outward expression of the faith in the grace of God or His sacrifice on the cross and our willingness to die with Christ and be reborn with Him. So I guess in a sense it is caused by grace, because obviously without the cross there would be no baptism. 2) Marraige as you state is a union between two people and God (Christian concept). This one I cannot see a relation to grace at all. I’m sure you see and recognise that people other than Christians validly marry. 3) What you call the Eucharist, I call communion and is the remembrance of the broken body and spilt blood of Jesus and of coarse this can only be done because of grace.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Exactly Richard the second death is death of the soul. Which means eternal separation from God. But if you believe in God and you follow his commands which another Sacrament is the Sacrament of Repentance you can be saved. Jesus said he took away death if you believe in him and do his will. But if you believe in him and do his will you will not suffer the second death which as scripture tells us is death of the soul.

Death means an absence of life, and as you state that would be seperation from God. ALL those that die before Christs return will experience this seperation. Everyone who experiences death experiences the death of the soul. The soul is the merging of the body with the animating breath of God (spirit). When the body dies the breath goes back to God who gave it and the dead await the resurrection in the grave. At the resurrection, the righteous will go to heaven with Jesus and the wicked will be burned up in the lake of fire. They will not be there in torment for all time. They will be burned up and the results of that burning will be eternal.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes we are saved by grace and it is this Grace that is given to us that we can have faith. Without Grace from God faith is not even possible. But you said that grace from God wont save me Faith will.

I can have all the faith in the world. But will my faith save me? No my faith cannot save me. Grace is what saves me. To have faith is to believe. Do you believe that the devil believes in Christ? You bet he does.

God gives me Grace and with this grace I can acquire faith if I choose. But even if I have faith it cannot save me without the Sacraments. Unless of course I am free from sin and never sin.

But that is not possible. Tell me Richard do you have sin? How can you have sin and enter heaven? Do you have faith? Is faith enough? Faith cannot be enough because we all have faith but still fall from the Grace given to us from God when we sin.

It is by Confession and repenting a GRACE from God by the way and also a Sacrament that saves us not our faith. If our faith were enough we would not fall from the Grace that God gave us.

But by his death on the Cross he made possible the Sacraments which are his Grace that we do not deserve but can reunite us with him once again. It is this Grace that must be given that works together with faith.

But if you have faith but do not use this faith it is worthless and will not save you. You must combine faith with works that can only be possible with the Grace from God.

I don’t know how many times I need to say this, so I guess I will keep saying it until you get it. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY FAITH. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY SACRAMENTS. WE ARE NOT SAVED BY ANYTHING WE DO. WE ARE SAVED BY JESUS CHRIST’S SACRIFICE ON THE CROSS. But a gift has two parts. In order for a gift to have any affect on us it has to be accepted. The acceptance of the gift of God of His son Jesus Christ is done thjrough FAITH.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes we are saved by grace and it is this Grace that is given to us that we can have faith. Without Grace from God faith is not even possible. But you said that grace from God wont save me Faith will.

Again, I never said this. It is the grace of God through the unmerited gift of God in the blood of His precious Son that saves us. We accept this gift through faith.

God gives me Grace and with this grace I can acquire faith if I choose. But even if I have faith it cannot save me without the Sacraments. Unless of course I am free from sin and never sin.

Faith is also a gift of God. Eph.2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But that is not possible. Tell me Richard do you have sin? How can you have sin and enter heaven? Do you have faith? Is faith enough? Faith cannot be enough because we all have faith but still fall from the Grace given to us from God when we sin.

We are all sinners, but our sins are covered by the blood of the Lamb.
1Jn.1:8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is by Confession and repenting a GRACE from God by the way and also a Sacrament that saves us not our faith. If our faith were enough we would not fall from the Grace that God gave us.

Again we are not saved by sacraments or faith but by grace which is the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. The gift is recieved in faith. Confession and repentence are also necessary for the gift to be effective.

But by his death on the Cross he made possible the Sacraments which are his Grace that we do not deserve but can reunite us with him once again. It is this Grace that must be given that works together with faith.

But if you have faith but do not use this faith it is worthless and will not save you. You must combine faith with works that can only be possible with the Grace from God.

The sacraments are not grace. The gift of God in His Son is.
Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

What about the devil then Richard? You are saying he is getting into heaven?

I’m saying nothing of the kind.

IF not where is he going.

He is going into the lake of fire where he will be burned up.

And where in the bible does Christ talk about these degrees you are talking about.

Luke 12
47And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[firstmode]

Revelation 2

20 “But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality.
*22 “Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering,[c] and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve.

Does your idea of what God’s love means match this verse from revelations? where he will strike children dead? Are you sure you understand God’s intentions?

Rev 6

*9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10 They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters[f]—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them.

 

[firstmode]

Rev 8

The First Four Trumpets

*6 Then the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow their mighty blasts.
*7 The first angel blew his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were thrown down on the earth. One-third of the earth was set on fire, one-third of the trees were burned, and all the green grass was burned.

*8 Then the second angel blew his trumpet, and a great mountain of fire was thrown into the sea. One-third of the water in the sea became blood, 9 one-third of all things living in the sea died, and one-third of all the ships on the sea were destroyed.

10 Then the third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from the sky, burning like a torch. It fell on one-third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star was Bitterness.* It made one-third of the water bitter, and many people died from drinking the bitter water.

*12 Then the fourth angel blew his trumpet, and one-third of the sun was struck, and one-third of the moon, and one-third of the stars, and they became dark. And one-third of the day was dark, and also one-third of the night.

13 Then I looked, and I heard a single eagle crying loudly as it flew through the air, “Terror, terror, terror to all who belong to this world because of what will happen when the last three angels blow their trumpets.”*

 

[firstmode]

Rev 9

*3 Then locusts came from the smoke and descended on the earth, and they were given power to sting like scorpions. 4 They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were told not to kill them but to torture them for five months with pain like the pain of a scorpion sting. 6 In those days people will seek death but will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them!

*7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. They had what looked like gold crowns on their heads, and their faces looked like human faces. 8 They had hair like women’s hair and teeth like the teeth of a lion. 9 They wore armor made of iron, and their wings roared like an army of chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails that stung like scorpions, and for five months they had the power to torment people. 11 Their king is the angel from the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon—the Destroyer.

*12 The first terror is past, but look, two more terrors are coming!

 

[firstmode]

Rev 9

*15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Revelation 2

20 “But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman—that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet—to lead my servants astray. She teaches them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she does not want to turn away from her immorality.
*22 “Therefore, I will throw her on a bed of suffering,[c] and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn away from her evil deeds. 23 I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am the one who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. And I will give to each of you whatever you deserve.

Does your idea of what God’s love means match this verse from revelations? where he will strike children dead? Are you sure you understand God’s intentions?

Yes it does. I think I do understand His intentions, at least according to these verses. Would you like me to explain it to you?

 

[Madaglan]

What you are quoting Madaglan is the scripture for Purgatory. Richard also is getting confused on this. There is a difference between the final cleansing which means you are deemed worthy for heaven but need to be made holy, And the scripture that states you will be separated from God forever.

This place cannot be hell because if it was now could it be everlasting torment.

Let me ask you a question, Do you really believe that satan is going to go to heaven? Did God or did God not also create Satan? There is NO good in Satan. Jesus said when he comes he will separate the goats and the sheep.

People want to refuse the truth about purgatory. They do not see what a great Mercy this is from God. They see Purgatory as hell and punishment. They do not see that it cannot be hell because hell is Eternal Separation from God. SO if this scripture is hell how can there be mercy and souls being saved w/o God.

So you have to show me where hell is Tempory separation from God and you will see that scripture does not teach that. Purgatory is not even tempory separation from God because God is there is save us. He is with us in our suffering to help us become Holy because we did not complete that here before death.

I do not understand how people can reject purgatory but then turn around and say that this is hell. THis place cannot be hell do you or do you not agree that hell is for the damned. And hell is eternal separation from God? And if you agree with that, then you must show me how you can have eternal separation from God and still be saved w/o his Grace.

The difficulty with the Purgatory interpretation is that St. John Chrysostom specifically states that St. Paul in writing “he shall be saved” leads us to understand such a man will remain in punishment “forever.” Since according to Roman Catholic belief nobody stays in Purgatory eternally (all those in Purgatory are destined for heaven), the place of punishment forever cannot be Purgatory.

St. John Chrysostom in the same passage speaks how St. Paul often uses positive sounding words that have the contrary meaning, and negative words that have a positive meaning. In other words, St. John does not understand St. Paul’s use of “salvation” here in the regular sense of salvation from sin, death and the Devil, but used in the sense that God will not allow someone to be annihilated, and that the person therefore will suffer eternally, as God has “saved” that person’s soul from annihilation.

 

[Madaglan]

One more point if I may. You said that hell is the fire that is God’s love that the damned REJECT and suffer. Now I have another question what happens to FREE WILL. Does God take free will off of us? Because if we reject him we do not want his Love. Are you saying he forces it on us?? Something is wrong with this thinking do you not agree?

Now here is something else I cannot understand if the damned suffer the loss of heaven, which let me add I agree with completely where do the souls who reject God and his love Go? Because there is only heaven and hell correct??

Purgatory is not a place. Purgatory is a process that you described. But when we die our souls are separated from our body. Our souls are what are judged not our body’s do you or do you not agree? The only difference is on the last day our Souls will be put back into our body’s and we will be raised from the grave and walk again on this earth.

But as Jesus said it will be the New Heaven and the New Earth. And the evil will be thrown down into the earth into the everlasting torment with satan. Then there will be no death, no suffering and we will live with our loved ones and we will all live in a world with complete love and happiness. A happiness that could not be imagined in this world.

My Dad said that we will live in paradise as Adam and Eve began. he said that is the life God wanted for us, before Adam and Eve sinned. No heavy burden, he said labor will be light. And anyone who works can truly agree that work can be truly a Joy when you love the work you do. That is what paradise will be. A work because we must be busy and have a goal in life, but whatever we will be doing we will LOVE doing it.

Regarding the question of God forcing His love: no God does not force His love. God does however immensely love mankind, and although we often do not love Him, He does not stop loving us. Those in Hell suffer, not because God’s love is suffocating them, but because they freely choose to reject God’s love and run away from it. God is present everywhere in His creation, even in Hell.

Adam and Eve were born in incorruption, but through their fall all creation entered into corruption. Through and in Christ, we can again enter into incorruption.

 

[rinnie]

You really need to start reading my posts a little closer. These conclusions you are comming up with have nothing to do with what I posted. How do you get this “Oh? Then you are saying that Baptism isn’t possible because of the Grace of God.” from anything that I have posted?

That’s right, I do not believe that we get the salvic grace of the cross in any other way than through faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

As far as I can see marraige has nothing to do with grace.

Rinnie, my definition of grace is The unmerited gift of salvation manifested in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Your three examples are 1) Baptism. Baptism I believe is the outward expression of the faith in the grace of God or His sacrifice on the cross and our willingness to die with Christ and be reborn with Him. So I guess in a sense it is caused by grace, because obviously without the cross there would be no baptism. 2) Marraige as you state is a union between two people and God (Christian concept). This one I cannot see a relation to grace at all. I’m sure you see and recognise that people other than Christians validly marry. 3) What you call the Eucharist, I call communion and is the remembrance of the broken body and spilt blood of Jesus and of coarse this can only be done because of grace.

Richard you told me that my Sacraments won’t save me, did you not? You always do this to me Richard, you say something and then when I respond back you get angry with me and say I am putting words in your mouth.

And Sacraments are a grace from God. Just because you do not accept them does not take away the Grace that we gain by them.

In the bible it tells us that to have eternal life in Christ we must eat the body and blood of Christ. Please show me where this scripture does not state that. IF the Eucharist is only a remembrance of Christ then why does Christ say DO THIS. DO what Richard? When Christ says you must eat and drink, Eat and drink what then RIchard? If we are to remember only why did Christ say we MUST eat and drink to have eternal life. How do you feel we do this?

Marriage is between a women and Man and Christ. I am sorry you cannot see this either. In the Catholic faith when a Man and Women get married their soul’s become united into one with Christ through the Grace of God. What God has joined together. You do not see that as a Grace from God to join to people in love together in the state of Marriage. When there is Marriage in your Church Richard do you say what God has joined together?

Now Richard explain something to me. You said Baptism is our outward expression in God. Then you say I guess in a SENSE it could be caused by Grace THis makes no SENSE to me whatsoever.

The Sacraments have nothing to do with us and take nothing away from the death on the cross. Can you not see Richard the Sacraments were made possible as a RESULT of the death on the cross.

But lets make this simple. Marriage how can a marriage not be a Grace given to you by God. So you are saying love and marriage are made possible without the Grace of God

 

[rinnie]

Regarding the question of God forcing His love: no God does not force His love. God does however immensely love mankind, and although we often do not love Him, He does not stop loving us. Those in Hell suffer, not because God’s love is suffocating them, but because they freely choose to reject God’s love and run away from it. God is present everywhere in His creation, even in Hell.

Adam and Eve were born in incorruption, but through their fall all creation entered into corruption. Through and in Christ, we can again enter into incorruption.

This goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church. Hell is total separation from God.

While I agree that God loves us always will does not mean that we will love God and accept him. And if you do not love and accept God you will be separated from him forever.

I am sorry but if you are what your faith states I do not think your own church teaches this either.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existance of hell and its Eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin desend into hell where they suffer the punishments of hell, ETERNAL and SEPARATION from GOD in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he longs.

Adam and Eve were tossed out of Paradise, but I do not see in the scriptures that they were thrown into the fires of hell. Gen. 3:22 The Lord God therefore banished him from the garden of eden to till the ground from which he had been taken.

The Lord banished them from Paradise but he did not throw them into hell. By the way Adam and Eve never rejected God they sinned against him. Their punishment was never disbelief or even their sin for that matter.

The reason they were thrown out is not only because of their sin but for their refusal to take responsibility for that sin. Even blamed it on the devil, and Adam turned around and first blamed Eve and then blamed God.

If God threw them into hell how could The Lord speak to Cain?

 

[rinnie]

Regarding the question of God forcing His love: no God does not force His love. God does however immensely love mankind, and although we often do not love Him, He does not stop loving us. Those in Hell suffer, not because God’s love is suffocating them, but because they freely choose to reject God’s love and run away from it. God is present everywhere in His creation, even in Hell.

Adam and Eve were born in incorruption, but through their fall all creation entered into corruption. Through and in Christ, we can again enter into incorruption.

Also I do agree with what you said because of Christ we are cleansed. That is what we call the Sacrament of Baptism. In Baptism we are cleased from the sin of Original sin that could only be made possible by the GRACE of God. IT was because of Adam and Eve that we have Original sin and only because of CHrist that we are cleamsed from it.

I think you may be like Richard and are getting the O.T hades mixed up with the N.T. Hell.

In the O.T. because of original sin no one could enter heaven. SO they were held in hell, hades greek, sheol in hebrew.

This is where I believe Richard is getting his levels of hell now. And yes in the O.T is was that way. The Holy Souls were awaiting the savior in Abrahams bosom. Thats where Lazarus was.(Poor man, Rich man story). This was the first death. But Christ took away the second death, death of the souls when he came down and released them. Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned nor to destroy the hell of dammation, but to deliver the just who had gone before him.

Before Christ all had to enter into hell before the death of Christ. He had to deliver them. BUt as the scripture tells us such is the case for all of the dead rather righteous or evil. BUt now because of Christ there is nothing left for him to deliver us from. It is finished. The souls of the righteous have been released and now there is only one hell for the damned.

But hell was not the same for everyone as scripture shows us. Hell was only death of the body not of the soul for mamy. But the second death, death of the soul is eternal death which would be the souls that were not released and never will be. Go back and read that scripture you will see that some were not suffering those with Abraham they were only awaiting Christ to come a release them. They did not suffer eternal death which is the evil that have death of the soul. The good that were with Abraham were released.

This is where I believe Richard is getting confused. He has a big problem with the O.T I can see that now. No offense Richard I am not being mean. But now the more I talk to you I can see the O.T does not tie into the N.T for you at all. You need to really study how Jesus fulfilled the O.T. and we now have the N.T. Alot of the O.T is fulfilled and over.