Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

You misunderstand what eat His flesh and drink His blood means.

Well Richard let me put it to you this way. Either the Holy Spirit has failed us and Jesus lied to us, and we can then forget everything that the Church teaches and you are right.

Or he is right and God kept his promises and is still leading the Church by the Power of the Holy Spirit and we cannot be led away from the truth.

I will stick with God and his teaching’s Richard that are promised to us then to accept that you have the truth and the Holy Spirit failed.

Because isn’t that what it all comes down to in the end Richard, . Either you accept that Chirst will always lead his CHurch by the power of the Holy Spirit or you go by your own teachings.

Because you cannot be right and the CC also be right. And what we teach is not our teachings Richard they are what the CC teaches.

The CC teaches that the bread and wine are indeed the LIVING CHRIST!! This teaches comes straight from the power of the HOLY SPIRIT the same Holy Spirit that was sent on the day of Pentecost. The same Holy Spirit that promised to be our Advocate until the end of age.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well Richard let me put it to you this way. Either the Holy Spirit has failed us and Jesus lied to us, and we can then forget everything that the Church teaches and you are right.

Or he is right and God kept his promises and is still leading the Church by the Power of the Holy Spirit and we cannot be led away from the truth.

I will stick with God and his teaching’s Richard that are promised to us then to accept that you have the truth and the Holy Spirit failed.

Because isn’t that what it all comes down to in the end Richard, . Either you accept that Chirst will always lead his CHurch by the power of the Holy Spirit or you go by your own teachings.

Because you cannot be right and the CC also be right. And what we teach is not our teachings Richard they are what the CC teaches.

The CC teaches that the bread and wine are indeed the LIVING CHRIST!! This teaches comes straight from the power of the HOLY SPIRIT the same Holy Spirit that was sent on the day of Pentecost. The same Holy Spirit that promised to be our Advocate until the end of age.

YOU have taught this rinnie

Originally Posted by rinnie
Yes Richard you are right on one thing. Grace is given to us by God and by grace we receive Faith. But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit teaches that we can earn salvation. Again I ask you. If we can earn salvation. Which means that salvation is owed to us. If this is possible, WHY DID JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, COME DOWN TO THIS SINFUL PLANET. You need to explain this discrepency in your teaching for anything else you say to make any sense.

 

[Tomster]

You misunderstand what eat His flesh and drink His blood means.

Well, then, please explain to all of us what those words mean.

And, if you would, please give us your interpretation of John 6:52-70, bearing in mind Matthew 26: 26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29.

 

[rinnie]

YOU have taught this rinnie

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit teaches that we can earn salvation. Again I ask you. If we can earn salvation. Which means that salvation is owed to us. If this is possible, WHY DID JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, COME DOWN TO THIS SINFUL PLANET. You need to explain this discrepency in your teaching for anything else you say to make any sense./QUOT

Boy Richard talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You need to look in a mirror. Please show me where I ever said that Salvation is OWED to us.

I said and let me repeat it AGAIN for the million times Salvation is made POSSIBLE for us by the death on the cross and by the death of the cross resulted the SACRAMENTS.

Now before we go any further can you answer the question I asked you. Then we can move on. Why did Abraham not go to heaven in the O.T.?

 

[rinnie]

Jesus Christ by his death and resurrection has set us free. He is the Savior of the world.

Did Jesus tell us that all we have to do is believe in him and have faith we will go to heaven? No he did not.

Did Jesus say that by his Cross he made it possible for us to have forgiveness by sins. Yes he did. He said to The Apostles what My Father has given to me, I now give to you. Go and Baptise all in my name, forgive sins in my name. That is what we call the Sacraments.

Tell me Richard did Jesus forgive sin? Was he Human? Did he have power from God to forgive sins? DId he have the power from God to pass this on to his Apostles?

 

[Tomster]

Well, then, please explain to all of us what those words mean.

And, if you would, please give us your interpretation of John 6:52-70, bearing in mind Matthew 26: 26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29.

Richard,

Since you are unable or unwilling to explain and interpret the above, allow me to do so.

John 6:52: First Christ says: " . . . the bread that I will give is My flesh, for the life of the world." In previous parts of His sermon our Lord had been speaking of bread without clearly defining what He meant by it. In this verse He finally declares explicitly its meaning. It is not likely that He would do this by using a vague and unintelligible metaphor. When we wish to explain exactly the meaning of some word, we use literal language.

Second, we read (verses 54 and 55) that our Lord threatens loss of eternal life to those who do not eat His flesh and drink His blood. Now it is a principle of common sense that laws entailing severe sanctions should be expressed in plain language. Otherwise violators would hardly be culpable. Our Lord in these verses lays down a law having dire sanctions and so wished to be understood literally.

Third, Christ distinguishes (verses 54, 55 and 57) between the eating His flesh and the drinking of His blood. It is difficult to find a reason for this distinction if He merely wished to inculcate the necessity of faith in Himself.

Fourth, our Savior compares (verse 59) the eating of His flesh with the eating of manna by the forefathers of the Jews. The consuming of the manna, however, was a literal eating of that substance. Hence, according to the normal way of using language, we would expect the eating of Christ’s flesh to be a literal, not a metaphorical eating.

Finally, Christ was already demanding faith in Himself. His promise, therefore, to give men His body and blood, cannot refer to this faith, since it is to be verified in the future only.

Proof from the words of institution (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22: 19-20; 1 Corinthians 11: 23-26) It is dogmatically of faith that these four passages establish the Real Presence. Apologetically, it is certain.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[rinnie]

Richard,

Since you are unable or unwilling to explain and interpret the above, allow me to do so.

John 6:52: First Christ says: " . . . the bread that I will give is My flesh, for the life of the world." In previous parts of His sermon our Lord had been speaking of bread without clearly defining what He meant by it. In this verse He finally declares explicitly its meaning. It is not likely that He would do this by using a vague and unintelligible metaphor. When we wish to explain exactly the meaning of some word, we use literal language.

Second, we read (verses 54 and 55) that our Lord threatens loss of eternal life to those who do not eat His flesh and drink His blood. Now it is a principle of common sense that laws entailing severe sanctions should be expressed in plain language. Otherwise violators would hardly be culpable. Our Lord in these verses lays down a law having dire sanctions and so wished to be understood literally.

Third, Christ distinguishes (verses 54, 55 and 57) between the eating His flesh and the drinking of His blood. It is difficult to find a reason for this distinction if He merely wished to inculcate the necessity of faith in Himself.

Fourth, our Savior compares (verse 59) the eating of His flesh with the eating of manna by the forefathers of the Jews. The consuming of the manna, however, was a literal eating of that substance. Hence, according to the normal way of using language, we would expect the eating of Christ’s flesh to be a literal, not a metaphorical eating.

Finally, Christ was already demanding faith in Himself. His promise, therefore, to give men His body and blood, cannot refer to this faith, since it is to be verified in the future only.

Proof from the words of institution (Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22: 19-20; 1 Corinthians 11: 23-26) It is dogmatically that these four passages establish the Real Presence. Apologetically, it is certain.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

But Tomster how can you teach such a thing because according to Richard this is what I TEACH

How can we be of the same mind and teaching if it were not by the Power of being led by the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church? Because Richard said this is not what the Holy Spirit teaches he gave ME all the credit.

 

[Tomster]

But Tomster how can you teach such a thing because according to Richard this is what I TEACH

How can we be of the same mind and teaching if it were not by the Power of being led by the Holy Spirit through the Catholic Church? Because Richard said this is not what the Holy Spirit teaches he gave ME all the credit.

Could it be because Richard is a magisterium unto himself while we follow the true magisterium that Christ established which He promised to protect for all time with His Holy Spirit?

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie you just don’t seem to be listening to me. I don’t know how many times I have said this. SACRAMENTS ARE NOT GRACE. Grace is the unmerited gift of salvation in Jesus Christ. WE DO NOT RECIEVE THIS GRACE IN A SACRAMENT. WE RECIEVE IT BY FAITH IN WHAT HE DID FOR US.

I don’t know how many different ways I can say the same thing rinnie. If you don’t accept what I am saying that’s to bad, but I certainly am not going to change what I know to be the truth because you disagree with it. Can you understand that?

I can understand you not changing what you believe to be true because I said it yes. I can accept it.

But what I cannot accept is YOU saying that a Sacrament is not a Grace given to us which was made possible by the death of Christ. That I cannot accept.

Because I would be denying the word of God.

 

[tortdog]

I’m sure that has been explained before, so just looking for the view, not so much to “debate” or “argue.”

If Christ literally meant that the bread was turning into his flesh, then why do people with allergies to wheat still have issues following the blessing? Is the view such that there is still some “wheat” left over, but that 99.9% of it is the literal flesh?

 

[Tomster]

I’m sure that has been explained before, so just looking for the view, not so much to “debate” or “argue.”

If Christ literally meant that the bread was turning into his flesh, then why do people with allergies to wheat still have issues following the blessing? Is the view such that there is still some “wheat” left over, but that 99.9% of it is the literal flesh?

One of my nephews has an allergy to wheat and goes to communion every Sunday - no problems. Additionally, I know of some recovering alcoholics who receive Christ’s blood at Mass and, again, no problem.

In answer to your last question there is no wheat “left over.”

 

[tortdog]

In answer to your last question there is no wheat “left over.”

So scientifically no one with a wheat allergy would react following the blessing and a scientific analysis of the product would find it to be flesh, correct?

 

[rinnie]

Let me explain why Richard CANNOT answer my question about Abraham. Because if Richard gives the correct answer he HAS to ACCEPT the Sacraments.

In the O.T Abraham did repent but he still had the stain of Original sin on him. There was no Lamb that could be offered for sin that was perfect enough to rid us of sin.

Not until God sent us his only Son the SPOTLESS LAMB, You are the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us.

When Jesus shed his blood for us all sin was forgiven and the ones held in hades were released from Prison and by the gift of the free Unmerited GRACE could enter heaven.

Now Jesus made it Possible for a Priest to forgive our sins on this eath. That is why we no longer must wait for a Savior he has come, and made it possible for us to be forgiven for our sins.

But we must do something. REPENT, CONFESS, OBEY. This is not earning our Salvation. If this was earning our salvation Abraham and the other who obeyed God would have made it into heaven.

This is a FREE GIFT given to us by God so we can enter into heaven. Christ was the perfect lamb. We no longer have to offer gifts up, simply because there is no gift possible. Christ is and was the gift.

Richard cannot see that the Sacraments are made possible BECAUSE of the death on the Cross not INSTEAD of the death on the Cross.

But Jesus did not say that we would not have our own part in our Salvation. He made it possible for us to do our part in our Salvation. And that is to obey his commands. If we disaobey his commands we did our part to lose our salvation that HE made possible for us.

If I am wrong then sin all your want and refuse to repent and listen to Richard and don’t do anything at all. Or you listen to the words of Jesus and you do your part that he made possible for you to do.

Faith WITHOUT WORKS are FRUITLESS!! How can you have faith and not do the work of God and think you will enter heaven? Why would Jesus tell us to obey his commands if we didn’t have to. And why did he give us free will if we could not use it, and are getting into heaven anyway?

Jesus never said this, he said many claim to come from him and he will tell them I do not know you. Jesus said the CHURCH is the Pilar of all truth. Not the bible. The bible cannot save you from sin, the bible cannot teach you. the bible cannot interpret itself. The bible itself says GO TO THE CHURCH to interpret the truth.

But we will give Ricahrd his time to answer. But if past history repeats itself Richard will just give us scripture that has no relation to the answer or will not answer at all.

But Richard I like you, and I believe that you do the best that you can. And I admire you for the truth that you do have. and believe you are true in your Love for our Lord. But to Love the Lord is not the same as teaching the truth of our Lord. We also have our promises to keep and that is to defend our Lord and the teaching’s of his Church.

And unfortunatelly it makes others not real happy with us.

 

[1voice]

No they are not. Take your eucharist for example. One can and I’m assuming many do recieve that “sacrament” without the slightest amount of faith, but you are saying that you recieve salvation because they merely perform the act of recieving the eucharist. This is not the case. Grace is recieved by faith in what Jesus did period. There is no work on our part that can impute that grace.

Thats exactly what came to mind when I was watching the movie The GodFather … The form was perfect… The substance? … nawwwwwt so much.

Jesus told stories to illustrate how form masks truth. The Good Samaritan … The Jews of that time hated Samaritans yet Jesus pointed directly at that time honored tradition to illustrate that being born into the true faith and following all the traditions to the T … was useless in Gods economy.

In the story of the Widow’s mite… Jesus clearly, simply shot down tradition. He said that the widow gave all that she had. … The heart is what has value in Jesus economy IMHO.

When I was in Catholic school most of the boys I knew cussed like sailors and told the newest raunchy jokes as a lifestyle year after year … but went to confession and Communion weekly … Nothing ever changed as a result of going through the motions.

In fact their logic was that they could do what they enjoyed as long as they went to confession afterward… Im talkin 8 years… Catholic school under the thumb of knuckle busting nuns.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner;7752008:

YOU have taught this rinnie

So you are saying that the Holy Spirit teaches that we can earn salvation. Again I ask you. If we can earn salvation. Which means that salvation is owed to us. If this is possible, WHY DID JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD, COME DOWN TO THIS SINFUL PLANET. You need to explain this discrepency in your teaching for anything else you say to make any sense.[/QUOT

Boy Richard talk about putting words in someone’s mouth. You need to look in a mirror. Please show me where I ever said that Salvation is OWED to us.

I said and let me repeat it AGAIN for the million times Salvation is made POSSIBLE for us by the death on the cross and by the death of the cross resulted the SACRAMENTS.

Now before we go any further can you answer the question I asked you. Then we can move on. Why did Abraham not go to heaven in the O.T.?

Ya see rinnie when you replied here you left out your quote. So, just to be clear, here it is again.

Originally Posted by rinnie
Yes Richard you are right on one thing. Grace is given to us by God and by grace we receive Faith. But you are saying we do not have to live our faith then, because by living our faith is how we earn salvation.

These are your words rinnie. I did not put them in your mouth. You posted them all by yourself. ANYTHING that we earn is owed to us. So, whether you intended to or not, I don’t know, but you ARE saying here that salvation is owed to us because we earn it. If we can earn salvation by something we do, it completely nuliifies the cross.
[/quote]

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I can understand you not changing what you believe to be true because I said it yes. I can accept it.

But what I cannot accept is YOU saying that a Sacrament is not a Grace given to us which was made possible by the death of Christ. That I cannot accept.

Because I would be denying the word of God.

Show me where it says this in the bible.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Show me where it says this in the bible.

Please show US where the Bible says that everything Jesus said or taught is contained in the Bible, only the Bible, and that the Bible is the sole authority for a Christian.

 

[Nelka]

No One Can Say There is No Hell

Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like…how terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O My Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend you by the least sin." (Diary 741)

 

[rinnie]

Thats exactly what came to mind when I was watching the movie The GodFather … The form was perfect… The substance? … nawwwwwt so much.

Jesus told stories to illustrate how form masks truth. The Good Samaritan … The Jews of that time hated Samaritans yet Jesus pointed directly at that time honored tradition to illustrate that being born into the true faith and following all the traditions to the T … was useless in Gods economy.

In the story of the Widow’s mite… Jesus clearly, simply shot down tradition. He said that the widow gave all that she had. … The heart is what has value in Jesus economy IMHO.

When I was in Catholic school most of the boys I knew cussed like sailors and told the newest raunchy jokes as a lifestyle year after year … but went to confession and Communion weekly … Nothing ever changed as a result of going through the motions.

In fact their logic was that they could do what they enjoyed as long as they went to confession afterward… Im talkin 8 years… Catholic school under the thumb of knuckle busting nuns.

Well there you go. You and Richard have alot in common. Richard also cannot understand that Jesus was not talking about Sacred Tradition the teachings of God and tradition of Man what the Jews were doing.

 

[rinnie]

Show me where it says this in the bible.

Would LOVE to Richard Thanks for asking.

Jesus is the Sacrament.

John 20:21 Christ sent his Spirit to inspire his Apostles and shepherd his Flock after the Ascension.

John 17:8 As the Father sent ME I send YOU.

Col 1:18 Jesus is the head of the body THE CHURCH!!! There you have it. The Sacraments are his gift that is given to us made possible by his death.

Every single Sacrament you will find is through the CC because ever single Sacrament is from the Grace of Jesus Christ who is the Church. Who without Jesus Christ there would be no Church and no Sacrament would be Possible. He made all things possible when he sent his Holy Spirit on Pentecost.