Does God annihilate the souls of the damned?

[rinnie]

rinnie;7752205:

Ya see rinnie when you replied here you left out your quote. So, just to be clear, here it is again.

These are your words rinnie. I did not put them in your mouth. You posted them all by yourself. ANYTHING that we earn is owed to us. So, whether you intended to or not, I don’t know, but you ARE saying here that salvation is owed to us because we earn it. If we can earn salvation by something we do, it completely nuliifies the cross.

How can you say that Richard. I said all thing’s are by the grace of God. Faith is only BECAUSE of the Grace of God. the Sacraments are only POSSIBLE because of the Grace of God.

Now how can a Sacrament be possible without the Grace of God. I never said that. I said that with the Grace of God given to us in the Sacraments we can do the work of our faith that is only possible by the grace of God.

I said that Grace is how we have faith and grace from that faith is how we can live our faith and do Gods work. I said without grace faith is impossible and I mean it.

You are the one who claims it is your faith that saves you. I said you are wrong because you cannot even have faith w/o the FREE GRACE given to you by God, and you cannot have the free gift of the Sacraments w/o the death on the cross.

I said and I will repeat it is because of the death on the Cross that GRACE which is the Sacraments are possible.

Now answer me Richard. Why did Abrahan have to be released from Hades? Are you questioning the faith of our Father Abraham? If you are right and the CHurch is wrong why did Abrahams faith not save him?

 

[rinnie]

Please show US where the Bible says that everything Jesus said or taught is contained in the Bible, only the Bible, and that the Bible is the sole authority for a Christian.

I think I will join you in the party here. But I do know in the bible where it says it isn’t and where it says to hold to the teachings of the Fathers of the Church rather Written or WORD OF MOUTH. You know the Tradition that Richard rejects.

The one that he gets confused by the Tradtion of men that was just mentioned here.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Let me explain why Richard CANNOT answer my question about Abraham. Because if Richard gives the correct answer he HAS to ACCEPT the Sacraments.

I have not answered your question about Abraham (haven’t even read it yet) because we still have this issue of earned salvation that you are spouting. You seem to be changing the subject and using this question as a smokescreen. So why not just clear this up. Let me ask you point blank. Do you beleive that salvation can be earned?

In the O.T Abraham did repent but he still had the stain of Original sin on him. There was no Lamb that could be offered for sin that was perfect enough to rid us of sin.

Not until God sent us his only Son the SPOTLESS LAMB, You are the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us.

**When Jesus shed his blood for us all sin was forgiven **and the ones held in hades were released from Prison and by the gift of the free Unmerited GRACE could enter heaven.

So you are saying that all sins are forgiven by the cross? So then there will be no lake of fire. All will be in heaven, even Satan. Is that what you are saying?

Now Jesus made it Possible for a Priest to forgive our sins on this eath. That is why we no longer must wait for a Savior he has come, and made it possible for us to be forgiven for our sins.

Rinnie you just got done saying “When Jesus shed his blood for us all sin was forgiven”
Now you say “Now Jesus made it Possible for a Priest to forgive our sins on this eath.” Why would we need a priest to forgive sins if they were all fogiven when Jesus shed His blood?

But we must do something. REPENT, CONFESS, OBEY. This is not earning our Salvation. If this was earning our salvation Abraham and the other who obeyed God would have made it into heaven.

I agree, we must repent, confess and obey. Repentence and confession are not works. They are a state of mind brought on by the Spirits conviction. Obedience is works, but none of these is the means of our salvation.

But Jesus did not say that we would not have our own part in our Salvation. He made it possible for us to do our part in our Salvation. And that is to obey his commands. If we disaobey his commands we did our part to lose our salvation that HE made possible for us.

If I am wrong then sin all your want and refuse to repent and listen to Richard and don’t do anything at all. Or you listen to the words of Jesus and you do your part that he made possible for you to do.

I was working on answering this post when I read this last part. Ican see there is no point in continuing when you continually twist what I say. So goodby.

 

[rinnie]

Thats exactly what came to mind when I was watching the movie The GodFather … The form was perfect… The substance? … nawwwwwt so much.

Jesus told stories to illustrate how form masks truth. The Good Samaritan … The Jews of that time hated Samaritans yet Jesus pointed directly at that time honored tradition to illustrate that being born into the true faith and following all the traditions to the T … was useless in Gods economy.

In the story of the Widow’s mite… Jesus clearly, simply shot down tradition. He said that the widow gave all that she had. … The heart is what has value in Jesus economy IMHO.

When I was in Catholic school most of the boys I knew cussed like sailors and told the newest raunchy jokes as a lifestyle year after year … but went to confession and Communion weekly … Nothing ever changed as a result of going through the motions.

In fact their logic was that they could do what they enjoyed as long as they went to confession afterward… Im talkin 8 years… Catholic school under the thumb of knuckle busting nuns.

Judas betrayed Jesus to, what did that have to do with his truth. You are judging the CC by the actions of BOYS that went to the CC?

I feel the need to help you with tradition.

If you read back In Col: 1:28 and Matt 15:3 You wll find Paul warns us Tradition handed by men not by God.

If you read about the pharisies they wanted to get away from their ressponability to their parents by using the temple as an excuse. Rule one in the Catholic faith scripture cannot contradict scripture. Now how can the teachings of Christ Sacred Tradition not line up with S.T. it can;'t.

They wanted to use their human Tradition to avoid like I said the commandment of God honor your Father and Mother. What Jesus was saying was you don’t force these people to give to the temple Charity begins at home, you take care of your Parents first. Jesus never said to give to the Church if your family is in need first. He said to give to the Church if you can, but you take care of your family first. They were not teaching the true word of God in the temple and Jesus called them on it. He said this is not what was taught to you.

That is what Human tradition and Sacred Tradition is. What they were teaching in the temple was not the word of God.

Please do not blame the Church for your ignorance of Scripture. Please continue to study and ask the Church to help you understand scripture. Remember what they say. Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of God.

Please take the time to re-learn your faith. Trust me, you will be happy to learn you know more then you think,

 

[rinnie]

I have not answered your question about Abraham (haven’t even read it yet) because we still have this issue of earned salvation that you are spouting. You seem to be changing the subject and using this question as a smokescreen. So why not just clear this up. Let me ask you point blank. Do you beleive that salvation can be earned?

So you are saying that all sins are forgiven by the cross? So then there will be no lake of fire. All will be in heaven, even Satan. Is that what you are saying?

Rinnie you just got done saying “When Jesus shed his blood for us all sin was forgiven”
Now you say “Now Jesus made it Possible for a Priest to forgive our sins on this eath.” Why would we need a priest to forgive sins if they were all fogiven when Jesus shed His blood?

I agree, we must repent, confess and obey. Repentence and confession are not works. They are a state of mind brought on by the Spirits conviction. Obedience is works, but none of these is the means of our salvation.

But Jesus did not say that we would not have our own part in our Salvation. He made it possible for us to do our part in our Salvation. And that is to obey his commands. If we disaobey his commands we did our part to lose our salvation that HE made possible for us.

 

[rinnie]

And yes Richard for the million time SALVATION CAN BE EARNED and it was by the death of Christ on the Cross. HE PAID THE PRICE.

Now by that Salvation that he earned for us we can be forgiven in this world through the Sacraments in the Church that was made possible ONLY BY HIM.

But if we do not do our part and ask for his help we cannot be saved RICHARD. IF we sin we MUST repent. If that to you is earning our own salvation I sure don’t see it. But if you feel that if we MUST repent and ask for Forgiveness is earning our own salvation then so be it. Because we have to repent and do our part.

But we do not see that as earning our Salvation. We see that as obeying the word of God and ACCEPTING The GRACE he made possible for us. You can accept it or reject it and stay in sin. Its up to you.

 

[rinnie]

Richard don’t tell me that repenting and confessing your sin is not a work. Are you saying it is not doing something? How can you say that repenting is not a work? Then what is repenting Richard?

 

[rinnie]

Also Richard the reason that we NEED a Priest to forgive us is if we are in a State of Mortal sin we must go to a Priest who has the power to release us from that sin by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

Can you forgive SIN Richard? Can you forgive my sin? Did God breath the Holy Spirit onto you and give you that gift.

Do you reject these words ALL my Father has given me I now give to you. Did God give Jesus the right to forgive sins yes or No. Did Jesus have the Power to give it to his Apostles like he said he did Yes or NO?

 

[rinnie]

Now my turn hy did the faith of Abraham alone not save him? If faith alone is what saves you. And if faith comes before Grace?

 

[rinnie]

Okay Richard so when we obey the ten commandments they will not help us get into heaven Then why obey God at all?

Richard I knew you would leave when you could not answer a question you always do. Its sad.

 

[valentino]

Soul are immortal.They can’t be destroyed.

 

[Tomster]

I think I will join you in the party here. But I do know in the bible where it says it isn’t and where it says to hold to the teachings of the Fathers of the Church rather Written or WORD OF MOUTH. You know the Tradition that Richard rejects.

The one that he gets confused by the Tradtion of men that was just mentioned here.

This makes three of us.

Richard,

You still haven’t interpreted the Gospel of St. John, chapter 6 for us. You know, the chapter regarding the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I gave you the Church’s teaching on it. Please give us yours.

 

[rinnie]

This makes three of us.

Richard,

You still haven’t interpreted the Gospel of St. John, chapter 6 for us. You know, the chapter regarding the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I gave you the Church’s teaching on it. Please give us yours.

Oh Richard, never a dull moment when he is around huh God Bless him. He will be back. Give him a chance to cool down a little:coolinoff: them he will be back.

 

[Tomster]

Well there you go. You and Richard have alot in common. Richard also cannot understand that Jesus was not talking about Sacred Tradition the teachings of God and tradition of Man what the Jews were doing.

rinnie,

What we Catholics have to remember is that Catholic doctrines such as sanctifying grace, good works, merit, purgatory, the Mass and the sacraments, the hierarchy and priesthood, the visible Church and papal authority and infallibility are repudiated by Protestants.

The personal beliefs of any given Protestant in any given congregation is for the most part a matter of benign indifference. Unbiblical Protestant tradition will take care of the doctrine. In fact, it IS the doctrine. Therefore if one wishes to have fewer sacraments, or even none at all, if one wishes to deny a doctrine that Luther believed, this is quite permissible. Because Protestantism is from start to finish a negative system, made up of repudiations, rejections and denials. The movement is always in the direction of less.

 

[Tomster]

Oh Richard, never a dull moment when he is around huh God Bless him. He will be back. Give him a chance to cool down a little:coolinoff: them he will be back.

Nuts!

I’m running out of popcorn!

 

[1voice]

Well there you go. You and Richard have alot in common. Richard also cannot understand that Jesus was not talking about Sacred Tradition the teachings of God and tradition of Man what the Jews were doing.

HUH?

 

[1voice]

Judas betrayed Jesus to, what did that have to do with his truth. You are judging the CC by the actions of BOYS that went to the CC?

I feel the need to help you with tradition.

There were many other examples of traditions that didnt work. One family in our Parish was having one kid after another … after the 8th child papa Tony said, Father Dompka, I’v got a problem… My wife says no more kids … we tried rhythm … we tried it all … every time I try… I have another mouth to feed. Father Domka (the celibate) says … Well, the only answer is to stop sleeping with your wife. Tony was in his forties and thought … yeh right, thats what im gonna do Father. Im gonna be just like you. How bout since were both gonna be celibate … you take care of the kids…
AaaaaanyWaysssss…
Tony, after a long hard struggle with the decision, got a vasectomy and almost got excommunicated. It was a huge scandal… Tony sent his kids to Catholic school … he was a picture perfect guy… He worked hard … he loved his family dearly … but, all of a sudden he was the object of scorn and accused of giving in to lust by the Church he loved and wanted his kids to love… ??? …?..?

 

[fred_conty]

I understand what you are saying fred. It is pretty much impossible to believe that someone would choose death over life. But then again look at the world today. Look how many people are doing it.

You see movie stars starving themself. I mean seriously look how thin they look. You must admit that is not normal. Look at how the people with money are so screwed up.

That is because they felt that money would make them happy. But before they would let go of one thin dime and turn to God they will continue to live this way. Now of days they have advisors now Could you imagine to not even have the faith to go into your room and pray or walk into a Church and fall to your knees and repent, but pay someone to fix you.

And it will fail ever time. Simply because these people have no power. Jesus is the only one who can help and he does not charge one dime.

But they continue to go to humans to help them, when all humans can do is listen and give out meds. They cannot see that they turned away from God. See that is the same thing as hell fred.

That burning is no a fire as we see. It is a state of being. A burning need deep down inside of you. That something is missing feeling. That nothing makes me happy. That is what we call hell, being separated from God.

For alot of people not all, the more God gives them, the further they get away from him. ANd when you want to come back to God he makes you also do the work.

And see fred they don’t want to do the work, they got money, So YOU do the work for them, fix them. But see no one can,

In order to get their souls back they have to do the work. GOd has the power to forgvie them, God paid for their souls. But they lost them and only GOd can get them back for them. But now comes God’s way. You must do the work now. THey would have to repent and forego the sin. That means put God first, they would have to change their life stye.

But see the devil uses his greatest weapon of all time. Fear and greed. Before they will give up the money and fame because either greed has overcome them or fear of what they have to lose does they will not repent and choose to life that way. There you have it fred. Hell!! Total separation from God.

When you put something or someone before God and turn to sin you have removed yourself from his Grace. But he left us the Sacaraments here. They are free to receive that help and get our souls back into the hands of God.

But before they will take that chance they refuse to go back with God and what the devil gives them is worth more then their souls.

Many people will choose Greed and Sin over God. They do it everyday.

And you do not have to be rich to do this. Just the rich are in the news more. But Not really I guess. You hear of murders every single day. Drug deals gone bad, cop shootings. Gangs killing oneanother. Just the names you do not know. Only because they are not famous is all. But the same thing. Drugs and money put before God.

My Dad always called these people lost souls. SO see fred this people did slip into nothingless. That are dead. Just talking up air.

hi rinnie,
The sinners who are confirmed in sin need to change as you’ve said. But to do that, they must receive the grace of conversion, that is, they must desire to change. But to obtain this grace of wanting to change, prayer, penance, a good work, is performed either by the sinner themselves, or someone praying for them. “Ask and you shall receive. Knock and it will be opened”, and so on with other passages. So if the person themselves are so hardened in sin that they do not want to quit sinning, then they must pray, or someone else, for the gift of WANTING to stop. In the Hail Mary we say “pray for US sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We pray not just for ourselves but for the church members as well. "…and forgive US our trespasses…’ We can in this way annihilate hell if we pray seriously for the world, even for the worst of sinners. If I thought about it I could come up with some ideas from the Bible. But the most obvious ideas can be gleaned for the Saints who lived before us. That is what they did - prayed for others. And that is what they do now for others if we but ask. We as part of Christ’s body on earth, the church, have the same mission as Christ in Galliee did, “…to save.” There is no such thing as a hopeless sinner as long as there is a church to pray for their conversion for sweet Jesus always listens to a Martha, or a Mary, or a John, the good people which he loves. Think about it Rinnie, if just One person thru your prayers turned their life around because of you…for all eternity.

 

[rinnie]

hi rinnie,
The sinners who are confirmed in sin need to change as you’ve said. But to do that, they must receive the grace of conversion, that is, they must desire to change. But to obtain this grace of wanting to change, prayer, penance, a good work, is performed either by the sinner themselves, or someone praying for them. “Ask and you shall receive. Knock and it will be opened”, and so on with other passages. So if the person themselves are so hardened in sin that they do not want to quit sinning, then they must pray, or someone else, for the gift of WANTING to stop. In the Hail Mary we say “pray for US sinners now and at the hour of our death.” We pray not just for ourselves but for the church members as well. "…and forgive US our trespasses…’ We can in this way annihilate hell if we pray seriously for the world, even for the worst of sinners. If I thought about it I could come up with some ideas from the Bible. But the most obvious ideas can be gleaned for the Saints who lived before us. That is what they did - prayed for others. And that is what they do now for others if we but ask. We as part of Christ’s body on earth, the church, have the same mission as Christ in Galliee did, “…to save.” There is no such thing as a hopeless sinner as long as there is a church to pray for their conversion for sweet Jesus always listens to a Martha, or a Mary, or a John, the good people which he loves. Think about it Rinnie, if just One person thru your prayers turned their life around because of you…for all eternity.

Thats why we are here buddy to help one another and pray for one another. God loves to hear us pray for eachother. And what a Grace from God to know that you lived out your Grace that he gave you to help someone else.

Prayer is the deepest way that we can communicate with God. It is from Prayer that we get the grace to live out our faith.

Great Post Fred!!

 

[rinnie]

There were many other examples of traditions that didnt work. One family in our Parish was having one kid after another … after the 8th child papa Tony said, Father Dompka, I’v got a problem… My wife says no more kids … we tried rhythm … we tried it all … every time I try… I have another mouth to feed. Father Domka (the celibate) says … Well, the only answer is to stop sleeping with your wife. Tony was in his forties and thought … yeh right, thats what im gonna do Father. Im gonna be just like you. How bout since were both gonna be celibate … you take care of the kids…
AaaaaanyWaysssss…
Tony, after a long hard struggle with the decision, got a vasectomy and almost got excommunicated. It was a huge scandal… Tony sent his kids to Catholic school … he was a picture perfect guy… He worked hard … he loved his family dearly … but, all of a sudden he was the object of scorn and accused of giving in to lust by the Church he loved and wanted his kids to love… ??? …?..?

I am struggling here to understand what this has to do with Traditions of Man and Traditions of God. I mean don’t get me wrong I can understand Tony’s problem.

But let me flip this for a second if I may. Lets say the Priest told Tony to go ahead and get a vasectomy? What position would that put the Priest in. Would he not tell him to disobey the word of God?

Now if you are saying that the Priest told everyone what Tony told him in confession I am completely on your side. The Priest did wrong and had no right to tell Tony’s business to the Church. He broke his promise to God. Confession is not to be told to anyone.

But what I saw was the Priest telling Tony while I understand your problem, (and think about it, he himself deals with it everyday) he was still telling Tony to trust God and God will find a way to take care of this.

What People need to realize the Priest does not have all of the answers either. I mean there are certain times a women can conceive and cannot. I am sure the Dr could have maybe helped her somehow someway in figuring that out.

But trust me a Man will not die without having sex every time he wants it. While my husband will disagree he is still living.

And I could not imagine the Church in someones business like you are saying what you claim happened. I have been Roman Catholic for 49 years all of my life and never heard of such a thing. And my Church was HUGE with thousands of familys.

I am not saying this is not possible, I am saying this is wrong and should never have happened. And Tony also had no business telling tales out of Confession.