Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[adf417]

While not dealing with your op, I would say God has a more universal call than how we commune, even what church to be part of

I would agree with this even to the extent of how God calls Muslims and Jews. Why stop with church? Why not extend to “even what religion to be part of”?

Peace!!!

 

[rcwitness]

mcq72:

While not dealing with your op, I would say God has a more universal call than how we commune, even what church to be part of

I would agree with this even to the extent of how God calls Muslims and Jews. Why stop with church? Why not extend to “even what religion to be part of”?

Peace!!!

Its not “How we Commune” but with whom we Commune with. Jesus is fully present in the Catholic Eucharist. How would anyone who seeks God not be called to Commune in His Eucharist?

Im not comparing anyone to anyone else. Im not saying Catholics are better than non-Cat Christians. Im not saying Christians are better than atheists.

Im saying Jesus calls all men to one table, and that table has two forms of Jesus; the Word of Scripture and the Word made body and blood.

 

[lilypadrees]

Yourpoint of view is that only if someone believes, accepts, converts their hearts are they actually being called by the Holy Spirit.

No, that isn’t my point of view. It is your interpretation.

rcwitness: “Im also sure she didnt put up a Christmas nativity scene during Easter! Lol. There are customs that come after conversion.”

My mother has always been a Christian. And the Nativity scene was always put up at its proper time.

rcwitnesses: “An atheist who doesnt think about reading Scripture in his free time is still being called to turn from his sins… and know God!”

Atheists don’t believe God exists. So in their view, there is no call to hear.

rcwitness: “And so a Christian who was raised in a Baptist faith tradition is still being called to the Catholic altar, where we receive His body and blood.”

Catholics receive His Body and Blood. Protestants receive a piece of cracker/bread (depending on denomination) and grape juice which they believe are symbols of remembrance of His sacrifice on the Cross for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world.

Despite the difference in belief about whether the consecrated bread and wine/grape juice become His Body and Blood or remain bread and wine/grape juice, Protestants believe in Jesus just as strongly and passionately as Catholics do. And He uses them in their churches. Only if they feel the tug at their hearts door by the Holy Spirit, who is in charge of the Ministry, to convert to Catholicism, will they convert.

Catholics and Protestants are called to be one as the Father and Son are one. We become one through Jesus.

 

[guanophore]

She was not called by the Holy Spirit to convert until she was in her 80s.

I don’t think we can assume this about anyone, however faithful they are to their own understanding of the faith. The catechism says that all workings if the Holy Spirit outside the visible Catholic Church are themselves calls to unity. I think it can be said that she finally RESPONDED to the call to convert when she was in her 80’s but that does not mean the call was not always present.

 

[lilypadrees]

lilypadrees:

She was not called by the Holy Spirit to convert until she was in her 80s.

I don’t think we can assume this about anyone, however faithful they are to their own understanding of the faith. The catechism says that all workings if the Holy Spirit outside the visible Catholic Church are themselves calls to unity. I think it can be said that she finally RESPONDED to the call to convert when she was in her 80’s but that does not mean the call was not always present.

I’m not assuming anything, guanophore. I asked her when she felt called to join the Catholic Church. My mother had been very adamant about not becoming Catholic. She was very happy being a Protestant and intended to die a Protestant. Her whole family was Protestant. She didn’t know any Catholics before she met my father, who, by his own admission, was not a role model for the Church. He had turned his back on God by the time he and Mama met and didn’t return to the Church until many years of my praying for both of them…

I was the one in the family who took being Catholic seriously, always wanted to go to Mass and embraced everything Catholic. I was the one who after learning my mother was a Protestant implored her to convert so that we could be a Catholic family. I begged her for years to convert. She was in a hospital bed after having hip surgery and I had just received the Eucharist the day she told me she wanted to convert and become Catholic. When I asked her what made her change her mind, she said the Holy Spirit had spoken to her heart and she made the decision to convert. There had never been any desire to convert before that day.

You need to realize that my mother had every excuse in the book as to why she wouldn’t and couldn’t convert. To see her suddenly open to becoming Catholic and not saying she would convert just to shut me up was a miracle. I contacted the priest at the hospital to get things rolling and she converted the following February. Our now late parish priest signed her certificate.

And now, even though she is under no obligation to fast, she still tries to observe Lent by abstaining from meat on Fridays. In fact, she rarely eats meat at all. She started reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church last year for her Lenten reading. But after falling on Holy Thursday and breaking several bones which meant spending a month in rehab, she couldn’t finish. She had two surgeries on her arm and is now well enough to finish last year’s Lenten reading as well as rereading Augustine’s Confessions.

When the priest pronounced her a member of the Catholic Church, he told her that all she needed to learn were the prayers and the gestures. She knew everything else from having lived with me.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b, you admitted to quoting part of a paragraph which you did several times. That takes things out of context and makes the meaning entirely different than that which was originally intended and therefore, wrong. That’s why I wanted to read the whole thing in order to get the proper context.

Since my hard copy of Lumen Gentium wasn’t within reach, I had to look online to compare what you posted with the full paragraphs. The link you provided didn’t work. So I did a Google search and found it myself reading what you had quoted first and then rereading the whole document.

I agree with what Lumen Gentium says. I do not agree with your partial quotes of those paragraphs which is what made your view wrong. Had you made a separate post without all the quotes from previous posts and just put the whole paragraphs in their entirety, we could’ve had a proper exchange which would’ve shown both you and rcwitness that I not only know my Catholic faith but that there is nothing relativistic about my views.

I make it easy for anyone reading what I quote. I give the link as well to show where I get the quote(s). So all ANYBODY needs to do is click on the link to see the source and context.

 

[steve-b]

rcwitness:

The point is that the Holy Spirit calls us to His one true Eucharist. Why be content with minimizing His call?

As posted elswhere, I seriously doubt that on monday morning you can tell who at the “water cooler” Eucharisted symbolically or who by transubstantiation…or who has more works, fruits or power in the Holy Ghost.

God knows. And judgement is just one heartbeat away

 

[Wannano]

mcq72:

rcwitness:

The point is that the Holy Spirit calls us to His one true Eucharist. Why be content with minimizing His call?

As posted elswhere, I seriously doubt that on monday morning you can tell who at the “water cooler” Eucharisted symbolically or who by transubstantiation…or who has more works, fruits or power in the Holy Ghost.

God knows. And judgement is just one heartbeat away

You are absolutely right.

 

[guanophore]

Atheists don’t believe God exists. So in their view, there is no call to hear.

Oh I disagree. They may not hear it, but it is certainly there to hear!

“For ever since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through His workmanship [all His creation, the wonderful things that He has made], so that they [who fail to believe and trust in Him] are without excuse and without defense.” Rom. 1:20

God leaves witness to Himself in His creation, whether people are listening, or not!

Protestants believe in Jesus just as strongly and passionately as Catholics do. And He uses them in their churches.

Yes, and I feel that many do more with a less than fullness of revelation, than the majority of Catholics do with the fullness.

Only if they feel the tug at their hearts door by the Holy Spirit, who is in charge of the Ministry, to convert to Catholicism, will they convert.

I do agree with you on this point. I just think that God is always calling, always tugging and that the HS is drawing us to unity in One Faith.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[guanophore]

I asked her when she felt called to join the Catholic Church.

I don’t doubt she was telling you her truth when she said she “felt” the call. I am just saying that the call is always present, even though the persons to whom it is directed are not hearing it.

My mother had been very adamant about not becoming Catholic. She was very happy being a Protestant and intended to die a Protestant.

It is very likely that Billy Graham felt the same way. I think this contentment in non-Catholic communities is part of what helps people brush away the call. It was that way for me when I sojourned among my separated brethren. I still pine away for the music ministry that I found to be such a blessing (and still do). Not many Catholics have such an extensive collection of Methodist hymns!

she said the Holy Spirit had spoken to her heart and she made the decision to convert. There had never been any desire to convert before that day.

I don’t doubt her testimony, or yours. I am just saying that the call is always present. For whatever reason, her heart received it at that time, and she made the decision. Only God can move the human heart. You did your part with your witness and your prayers.

 

[Wannano]

Protestants believe in Jesus just as strongly and passionately as Catholics do. And He uses them in their churches.

Yes, and I feel that many do more with a less than fullness of revelation, than the majority of Catholics do with the fulness.

---

What comprises lukewarmness?

 

[guanophore]

What comprises lukewarmness?

This is a good question, and probably deserves it’s own thread. I think there are a variety of issues, the main one being the lack of a sense of relationship with God. For myself, as a youth, I was not connected with my faith because I did not have an encounter with Jesus. I had not read the Scriptures, and ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. I did not know how to talk to God - I only knew prayers I had to memorize for catechism. I am sorry to say there are a great many Catholics like me.

I also notice that “religion” is often a “part” of like - kind of like a hobby or a part time interest (or worse, obligation). Instead of understanding the faith as one of discipleship, and having Christ on the throne of one’s life, it is like a caboose to a life that is centered around secular values.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Let me put it this way: I believe that believers who are “preachers and teachers in churches separated from Holy Communion with the Bishop of Rome” can do important work in those environments, and can fulfill God’s purposes by doing it in good faith, out of love for Him.

The world is full of converts who came to Rome out of their love for God, and who got there after arduous struggles that a love of truth inspired in them. For that love of God and that love of truth–without which nothing else would’ve followed–I think we have many of those non-Catholic preachers and teachers to thank originally.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

What comprises lukewarmness?

This is a good question, and probably deserves it’s own thread. I think there are a variety of issues, the main one being the lack of a sense of relationship with God. For myself, as a youth, I was not connected with my faith because I did not have an encounter with Jesus. I had not read the Scriptures, and ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ. I did not know how to talk to God - I only knew prayers I had to memorize for catechism. I am sorry to say there are a great many Catholics like me.

I also notice that “religion” is often a “part” of like - kind of like a hobby or a part time interest (or worse, obligation). Instead of understanding the faith as one of discipleship, and having Christ on the throne of one’s life, it is like a caboose to a life that is centered around secular values.

There are times you leave me speechless…this is one of those times!

 

[guanophore]

There are times you leave me speechless…this is one of those times!

LOL why is that?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

There are times you leave me speechless…this is one of those times!

LOL why is that?

I fear the backlash I may receive, however…what you shared is the essence of Christ’s coming to earth, His purpose. It is the central message of The Way before it developed into “religion.”

 

[guanophore]

what you shared is the essence of Christ’s coming to earth, His purpose. It is the central message of The Way before it developed into “religion.”

It certainly does seem that the core message can get lost in religious practice. I learned to do all the “Catholic” things, genuflect, recite the Baltimore Catechism, complete all the Sacraments (as if they were some sort of modules to be performed). Yet my encounter with the Living God still seemed far away.

When looking at the term"religion"
it is interesting that it reflects the concept of being bound or committed to a Divine way of life. Somehow that concept escaped me. I remember being very angry at the CC for “hiding the Gospel” from me, until I was taught it by my Baptist Brethren.

I notice that modern Catechism training for instructors is all centered around helping people develop a relationship/encounter with Christ, and places the dogmas and practices in that context. But I don’t think it was taught this way when I was coming up.

 

[lilypadrees]

Um, I said “in their (the atheist’s) view, there is no call to hear.”

Well, who does more is God’s call to make.

 

[lilypadrees]

Granted, the call may be always present. But one is not going to answer it if they don’t hear it.

 

[rcwitness]

Granted, the call may be always present. But one is not going to answer it if they don’t hear it.

Ahhhh… now you are coming around