Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[rcwitness]

I’ll answer this if you answer mine: Do you believe God calls Catholics to be preachers and teachers in churches separated from holy communion with all non-CC Leaders?

Yes. The notion that all non-Catholic Christians are in Communion with one another is silly. They are NOT one body with one mind and the same judgment. There are divisions over tenants of the faith.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Wow

Yes, the conundrum of realists and hard liners, as played out at Vat II. The CC admitting the reality of abounding spiritual life even genuine, in other churches (though owing to CC)but having to please hardliners who hold to no salvation outside CC, by later writing if one knowingly rejects CC, they be lost.

Do you know why I responded with “Wow!”???

Her response to me was “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

That attempts to place me in a house which does not! And merely because i raised to her attention the fact that the Catholic Church tells us that the Holy Spirit calls everyone to His One Eucharist! For rejecting that, she is opposing Catholic Teaching.

I never said non-Catholic Christians dont accept the Holy Spirit.

But even Moses, who spoke to God directly, and led the Hebrews out of slavery and forty years through the desert, and to the promised land, was not permitted to enter it because he did not follow what God told him regarding the water in the rock.

The salvation which is possible by those outside of Eucharist Communion is due to no being responsible for the sin of separation of those who did, but hearing the Gospel message and believing with Baptism and seeking God’s will.

The point of this thread is to ask Christians if it is God’ will that some of His believers do not partake in His Eucharist. As Catholics, we believe that their is not a true Eucharist in churches separated from the Catholic and Orthodox Church.

 

[rcwitness]

I think you both have valid points there. Paul was talking about Mass and he was warning about Apostasy.

But one mortal sin can constitute Apostasy if we do not have remorse for it. St James tells us “Whoever knows what is right to do, and fails to do it, for him it is sin.”

Part of the conditions of mortal sins and whethwr they are enough to reject God completely, is knowing the heart of that individual. So only God can make that personal judgment.

But some people give evidence by their own comfession, while other’s contempt for God’s will is hidden.

 

[angelic06]

Even the separation between Catholic and Orthodox, with the two groups not able to partake of the Precious Lamb in each other’s churches, is not of God’s manufacture.

 

[lilypadrees]

lilypadrees:

I do accept all Catholic teaching. But I also know that not everyone views the Catholic Church as I do. Because I have seen, experienced and lived with the teachings of both sides, I have a unique perspective of things. What you see as me contradicting my own faith tradition is in reality, me showing understanding about Protestant preaching and teaching. I don’t have to agree with the way they preach and teach to understand it.

That is a bunch of jargon. You are trying to excuse yourself from rejecting a Catholic Teaching, on grounds that you are “Protestant enlightened”.

I was raised Non-denominational. I believed the Gospel message at the age of reason through the preaching and Scripture reading in that church! I helped their youth ministry even after I was Baptized and Confirmed Catholic! Ive gone to conferences and bible study groups with only non-Catholic Christians. My whole family is Protestant. I am a God parent to my Lutheran niece. She just had First Communion, and I ent to the service.

You should not think you are more Protestant enlightened than others.

You are making false claims about me, rcwitness. I don’t reject Catholic teaching at all. I am a cradle Catholic who has always taken my Catholic faith seriously. Billy Graham was not Catholic and he served God the way God wanted him to.

Nor do I think that I am more Protestant enlightened than others. But I have a unique perspective because I had parents who were Catholic (father) and Protestant (mother). So I got to experience the teachings of both.

At that time, Catholics were told not to go to Protestant churches because they taught differently than the Catholic Church. I didn’t experience Protestant churches or their teachings until I came here. Unlike you, I did not convert from one church to another. I have always been Catholic, have always appreciated everything about my Catholic faith and will remain Catholic until I draw my final breath.

FYI, “non-denominational” is still Protestant. And that comes from one of my Protestant friends.

 

[rcwitness]

You are making false claims about me, rcwitness. I don’t reject Catholic teaching at all. I am a cradle Catholic who has always taken my Catholic faith seriously. Billy Graham was not Catholic and he served God the way God wanted him to.

Billy Graham was not fully Catholic, but held to many Catholic tenants. His public preaching was not opposed to the Catholic faith. I appreciate his preaching, and many other non-Catholic preaching and teaching ive listened to!!!

That has nothing to do with the fact that God calls everyone to the unity of the Catholic faith, of which the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion brings us into. Baptism being valid among Protestant churches, but Holy Communion not.

Nor do I think that I am more Protestant enlightened than others. But I have a unique perspective because I had parents who were Catholic (father) and Protestant (mother). So I got to experience the teachings of both. At that time, Catholics were told not to go to Protestant churches because they taught differently than the Catholic Church. I didn’t experience Protestant churches or their teachings until I came here. Unlike you, I did not convert from one church to another. I have always been Catholic, have always appreciated everything about my Catholic faith and will remain Catholic until I draw my final breath. FYI, “non-denominational” is still Protestant. And that comes from one of my Protestant friends.

Yes, I was raised through a Protestant church! That was my point. But I knew God calls us to unity in His Eucharist. So I heard Catholic preaching which both dispelled the misunderstandings of the Catholic faith and revealed the genuine beliefs of the Catholic faith.

 

[rcwitness]

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
The Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. “Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church.” In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him “the fullness of the means of salvation” which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. The Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race: All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one… The character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.

“The Church of Christ is really present in all legitimately organized local groups of the faithful, which, in so far as they are united to their pastors, are also quite appropriately called Churches in the New Testament… In them the faithful are gathered together through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, and the mystery of the Lord’s Supper is celebrated… In these communities, though they may often be small and poor, or existing in the diaspora, Christ is present, through whose power and influence the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is constituted.”

The phrase “particular church,” which is first of all the diocese (or eparchy), refers to a community of the Christian faithful in communion of faith and sacraments with their bishop ordained in apostolic succession. These particular Churches “are constituted after the model of the universal Church; it is in these and formed out of them that the one and unique Catholic Church exists.”

Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome “which presides in charity.” “For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord.” Indeed, "from the incarnate Word’s descent to us, all Christian churches everywhere have held and hold the great Church that is here [at Rome] to be their only basis and foundation since, according to the Savior’s promise, the gates of hell have never prevailed against her."

"All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."

 

[lilypadrees]

As I said, you have the right to your opinion, rcwitness. Instead of making claims of what you think my opinions are and what you think I’ve contradicted, I suggest you take things up with me personally via PM, if you wish, instead of voicing your views of my comments through your comments to other posters.

Oh, and as to your comment in a later post that you “raised to her (my) attention the fact that the Catholic Church tells us that the Holy Spirit calls everyone to His One Eucharist!,” no, you didn’t. I am well aware of what the Catholic Church teaches. I am well aware of what the Holy Spirit calls us to.

rcwitness: “For rejecting that, she is opposing Catholic Teaching.”

I am not opposing Catholic teaching. The person being spoken of in another thread, which prompted the start of this one, was not a Catholic. So Catholic teaching did not apply to him. He was a devout Southern Baptist with a different way of communicating that was used by God for His purposes.

There is nothing wrong with a Catholic believing that God uses people who are not Catholic to spread the Gospel. And I do believe that the Rev Billy Graham was used by God to spread the Gospel the way God wanted him to. And God wanted Billy Graham to spread it as a Southern Baptist not as a Catholic. I believe he was filled with the Holy Spirit. His sermons were very powerful, dynamic, electrifying, and drew many to Jesus. The people who attended his Crusades were from every denomination. There were also attendees who were agnostic and atheist who were brought to Christ while there.

Southern Baptists do not believe the bread and wine/grape juice become Jesus flesh and blood after they are consecrated (blessed). Rev Graham would’ve had to change his whole mindset and believe they did become His Body and Blood and that he was receiving Jesus Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in order to have converted and become Catholic. He didn’t. He believed the bread and wine/grape juice were symbols of remembrance only as do most Protestants. I say “most” because those who come to realize that they are His Body and Blood convert and become Catholic.

Is there anything else you wish clarified?

 

[rcwitness]

Southern Baptists do not believe the bread and wine/grape juice become Jesus flesh and blood after they are consecrated (blessed). Rev Graham would’ve had to change his whole mindset and believe they did become His Body and Blood and that he was receiving Jesus Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in order to have converted and become Catholic. He didn’t. He believed the bread and wine/grape juice were symbols of remembrance only as do most Protestants. I say “most” because those who come to realize that they are His Body and Blood convert and become Catholic.Is there anything else you wish clarified?

It doesnt matter if its Billy Graham or the naughtiest Southern Baptist in the world… our Catholic faith professes a legitimate Supper of the Lord to be that which is in Communion with an Apostolic Bishop.

Furthermore, this confession of the Church’s unity under the Eucharistic meal is believed to be a call of the Holy Spirit to all men (including Southern Baptists).

 

[rcwitness]

Even the separation between Catholic and Orthodox, with the two groups not able to partake of the Precious Lamb in each other’s churches, is not of God’s manufacture.

Yes

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” 322 Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” 323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.” 324

 

[Wannano]

Even the separation between Catholic and Orthodox, with the two groups not able to partake of the Precious Lamb in each other’s churches, is not of God’s manufacture.

It follows then that one group or the other is at fault or in a higher probability both groups were/are equally at fault. Which is it?

 

[rcwitness]

angelic06:

Even the separation between Catholic and Orthodox, with the two groups not able to partake of the Precious Lamb in each other’s churches, is not of God’s manufacture.

It follows then that one group or the other is at fault or in a higher probability both groups were/are equally at fault. Which is it?

Its not about who is at fault. Both, over the centuries have made faults which contribute to division. What matters is the Lord’s call to reconcile under a common celebration of faith, Eucharistic meal, and leadership.

 

[Wannano]

lilypadrees:

Southern Baptists do not believe the bread and wine/grape juice become Jesus flesh and blood after they are consecrated (blessed). Rev Graham would’ve had to change his whole mindset and believe they did become His Body and Blood and that he was receiving Jesus Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in order to have converted and become Catholic. He didn’t. He believed the bread and wine/grape juice were symbols of remembrance only as do most Protestants. I say “most” because those who come to realize that they are His Body and Blood convert and become Catholic.Is there anything else you wish clarified?

It doesnt matter if its Billy Graham or the naughtiest Southern Baptist in the world… our Catholic faith professes a legitimate Supper of the Lord to be that which is in Communion with an Apostolic Bishop.

Furthermore, this confession of the Church’s unity under the Eucharistic meal is believed to be a call of the Holy Spirit to all men (including Southern Baptists).

I am just a simple ignorant man so bear with me. I have gathered that the CC teaches that the central most important facet of Christian experience is the receiving of Jesus in the Eucharist. Since they are the only Church that has this all down pat all believers should be desiring to experience Christ in this way. Yet, when Nicodemus came inquiring of Jesus, Jesus gave him the simple message Billy Graham gave to the world, “you must be born again.” This is not done by ritual of any kind but by circumcision of the heart of the individual. Why didn’t Jesus, knowing full well that the coming Eucharist would be the one most important ritual his church would practice, tell Nicodemus to hang closely and wait for what was coming?

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

angelic06:

Even the separation between Catholic and Orthodox, with the two groups not able to partake of the Precious Lamb in each other’s churches, is not of God’s manufacture.

It follows then that one group or the other is at fault or in a higher probability both groups were/are equally at fault. Which is it?

Its not about who is at fault. Both, over the centuries have made faults which contribute to division. What matters is the Lord’s call to reconcile under a common celebration of faith, Eucharistic meal, and leadership.

But surely the CC has never erred or contributed to error. That was only the result of ungodly men within the Church right?

 

[rcwitness]

The Catholic Church’s lawful Teaching, whether done through the college of Bishops in communion with Rome, or by an ex-Cathedra address has not been in error.

And the Orthodox churches profess and uphold the Christian faith to the degree that very little is lacking for a common celebration of the Lord’s Supper.

 

[steve-b]

I’ve read and studied Lumen Gentium in its entirety.

You have taken sentences out of their proper context so that the true meaning is not what you claim it to be.

I could say the same back to you

 

[mcq72]

Abounding” is overselling it a touch. Even St JP2, who was anything but a hardliner on ecumenism, called non-Catholic Christian sects ‘gravely deficient’.

Lol…yes a little voice told me same about “Abounding” not being in C text, but “gravely deficient” does not seem to be in there also…fruitful is I believe.

 

[rcwitness]

LilyM:

Abounding” is overselling it a touch. Even St JP2, who was anything but a hardliner on ecumenism, called non-Catholic Christian sects ‘gravely deficient’.

Lol…yes a little voice told me same about “Abounding” not being in C text, but “gravely deficient” does not seem to be in there also…fruitful is I believe.

The point is that the Holy Spirit calls us to His one true Eucharist. Why be content with minimizing His call?

 

[lilypadrees]

Since I haven’t quoted anything from Lumen Gentium, you are wrong there.

 

[rcwitness]

Here’s something from it:

Every legitimate celebration of the Eucharist is regulated by the bishop, to whom is committed the office of offering the worship of Christian religion to the Divine Majesty and of administering it in accordance with the Lord’s commandments