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lilypadrees
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With all due respect, I have read Lumen Gentium in its entirety.What point are you trying to make in quoting from it?
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Wannano
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I would be interested in your response to my post #158 above…mcq72:
The point is that the Holy Spirit calls us to His one true Eucharist. Why be content with minimizing His call?LilyM:
Lol…yes a little voice told me same about “Abounding” not being in C text, but “gravely deficient” does not seem to be in there also…fruitful is I believe.
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rcwitness
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I did, right after it…
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rcwitness
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If you dont see it, I believe you take a relativistic view of Christianity.
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steve-b
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lilypadrees,
When you said
“I’ve read and studied Lumen Gentium in its entirety You have taken sentences out of their proper context so that the true meaning is not what you claim it to be.”
To say I’m wrong in my quote, not to mention what the quote means, and that you are right in your view, and I’m wrong, is to also put yourself on the hook for those quotes I used as well.
All I did was quote 2 sections of Lumen Gentium. Here’s your chance to show me where the context of the document is wrong as I quoted it.
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guanophore
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On the contrary, these other ecclesial communities are a wound to the Unity of the One Church.
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steve-b
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The Church He established, must teach that. Here’s why Jn6:48-66 RSVCE - I am the bread of life. Your fathers - Bible Gatewayrcwitness:
I am just a simple ignorant man so bear with me. I have gathered that the CC teaches that the central most important facet of Christian experience is the receiving of Jesus in the Eucharist. Since they are the only Church that has this all down pat all believers should be desiring to experience Christ in this way.lilypadrees:
It doesnt matter if its Billy Graham or the naughtiest Southern Baptist in the world… our Catholic faith professes a legitimate Supper of the Lord to be that which is in Communion with an Apostolic Bishop.
Furthermore, this confession of the Church’s unity under the Eucharistic meal is believed to be a call of the Holy Spirit to all men (including Southern Baptists).
Fair question
We only have snippets of what Jesus did and said for His 3 year public ministry. But it’s enough. As John wrote, in the end of his gospel, Jn21:25 RSVCE - But there are also many other things - Bible Gateway
Billy I can’t really speak to, other than As a gospel man, he knew what Jesus said to do or one has no life in them.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” From Jn6:48-66 RSVCE - I am the bread of life. Your fathers - Bible Gateway
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rcwitness
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Ahhh, i didnt notice 158!! I only saw 159… sorry!
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guanophore
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It is true that, when there are rampant heresies, more must be defined. This is to prevent the faithful from passing through the gates of hell.
Clearly this has been necessary from the beginning. This is why we read about it in the Early writings.
Is there some reason you think this is not appropriate? Don’t even non-Catholics have standards?
Has not order in society always been kept by civil authorities? What does this have to do with articles of the faith?
I thought Jesus made this quite clear in Scripture?
It is true that we have a better understanding of Mary when responding to heresies about the nature of Christ. ARe you saying that a response to these heresies was not important? Should the Church not defined Trinity? Hypostatic union?
I am not sure what you mean by this? Since the Resurrection of Christ is a Christian celebration, who else should decide when it is celebrated?
Christ is the only name under heaven by which we may be saved. Jesus has only One Body, the Church. Therefore, all who are in Christ are members of His One Body, the Church. I can’t see how you could disagree with this.
This is certainly true. The Church was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. In fact, the NT was created by the CC. You seem to believe Jesus failed in His promise to guide the Church into “all truth”.
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rcwitness
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First of all, the founding principle in all doctrines and Sacraments is belief!
When did the Christian Baptism come? Nicodemas would have had to wait for water Baptism… and the Apostles and disciples were waiting for Pentecost!
The full Gospel was NOT made known UNTIL the death of the Lord! Everyone who believed was waiting to know what Jesus was going to do. So were those who didnt believe! The difference was those who believed heard God’s voice in Jesus and trusted He would provide the answer.
The Eucharist is directly related to the death and resurrection of Jesus, and how we are healed and nourished by His very coming in the flesh and dying for our transgressions.
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guanophore
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We can’t really know this. We don’t know how much he knew or was called by God to be Catholic. I don’t think we can even say that he “spread the Gospel the way God wanted him to”. I think we can confidently say (and support) that he served God the way Rev. Billy Graham believed that God wanted him to do. He was faithful, persistent, prayerful, and devoted to the ministry he believed God gave him.
I can see how some would say that this assertion contradicts the Catholic faith.
Without a doubt, Billy Graham spread the Gospel the best way he understood God wanted.
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mcq72
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As posted elswhere, I seriously doubt that on monday morning you can tell who at the “water cooler” Eucharisted symbolically or who by transubstantiation…or who has more works, fruits or power in the Holy Ghost.
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mcq72
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No doubt, all by the grace and gifting by God…all with out sacraments of eucharist and reconciliation, and confirmation as defined by CC…quite an abounding protestant walk
While not dealing with your op, I would say God has a more universal call than how we commune, even what church to be part of
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LilyM
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Do you doubt that Christ began a visible, institutional Church - ONE visible, institutional church with one leadership structure? With visible, formal sacraments?guanophore:
No doubt, all by the grace and gifting by God…all with out sacraments of eucharist and reconciliation, and confirmation as defined by CC…quite an abounding protestant walk
While not dealing with your op, I would say God has a more universal call than how we commune, even what church to be part of
He spoke very specifically of founding such upon the Apostles to whom He gave the power to bind and loose (stating that what they bound and loosed would correspond to what was bound and loosed in heaven), and more specifically still upon Peter to whom He gave the keys. “Who hears you hears Me”.
And spent a lot of time preaching on the necessity of Eucharist - and moreover that such was to be understood in a very real and not merely symbolic or figurative sense - to the extent of willingly letting people go in John chapter 6 who did not believe in it - and the like.
He didn’t do so because He thought how we commune or what church we are part of was unimportant. On the contrary, He had only three years of active ministry, and so He spent valuable time on such things because they were and are incredibly important. And His teaching seems to be in stark contrast to views like yours of a super-inclusive “universal call”.
All are called indeed, but all are called to unity, both of doctrine and of practice, and not to the level of divergence and dissent that we have among the Christian sects.
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guanophore
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For us there can be no separation. The Eucharist is the Source and Summit of the faith. I do agree that the call is universal, and that we are all called to discipleship. Jesus was clear about His desire that we all be One, as He and the Father are One. The separation and division wounds His One Body. He does care that we are divided.
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April29
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You know how the definition of true love is to want that which is best for the one that we love? Well, if God loves us He wants that which is best for us right? He wants the supreme, the most perfect things for us because He loves us far beyond Our understanding. He left for us a church and in his church the capacity to receive not only the fullness of truth, but His very body and blood in the Holy Eucharist. We are able to learn Fromm his Mother, His saints, His truth. Is this not the supreme gift? So why would He purposely take someone away from it? No, I don’t believe God ever calls someone away from all of this. That would be like saying that He wants the Eucharist only for some of us, or the church. I believe that He permits it sometimes for reasons we can’t understand. Either because it will ultimately lead them back to holy Mother church or because He never forced His gifts on anyone. He will accept each peroson’s free will, even if this person rejects the gift of the church, the Eucharist, His mother , and the fullness of truth
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lilypadrees
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You can believe whatever you want about me, rcwitness.
But the One whose view really matters is God.
But the One whose view really matters is God.
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lilypadrees
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Agreed, guanophone. And what many fail to realize is that not every non-Catholic has read our Catholic teachings. They may know about our beliefs and teachings, enough to discuss with us. They may even observe some of our tenets without realizing it. But that isn’t the same as being totally immersed in our beliefs and teachings and feeling called to convert. Only the Holy Spirit can call one to convert. God never forces His Will on us.
My mother, before becoming Catholic, attended Mass with me each Sunday. Living with Catholics, she knew enough to carry on a conversation. But Catechisms, Papal Bulls and other Catholic writings (inc the Church Fathers) were entirely foreign to her. She didn’t observe Lent altho she would make meatless meals for us on the Fridays of Lent. (Ash Wednesday had to be explained to her every year because Protestants didn’t even receive ashes on their foreheads.) Our weekday Holy Days of Obligation were just another day of the week to her. She was not called by the Holy Spirit to convert until she was in her 80s. Only after she converted was she interested in reading as many Catholic writings as possible and learning everything she could about the Catholic Faith I’ve held dear all my life.
My mother, before becoming Catholic, attended Mass with me each Sunday. Living with Catholics, she knew enough to carry on a conversation. But Catechisms, Papal Bulls and other Catholic writings (inc the Church Fathers) were entirely foreign to her. She didn’t observe Lent altho she would make meatless meals for us on the Fridays of Lent. (Ash Wednesday had to be explained to her every year because Protestants didn’t even receive ashes on their foreheads.) Our weekday Holy Days of Obligation were just another day of the week to her. She was not called by the Holy Spirit to convert until she was in her 80s. Only after she converted was she interested in reading as many Catholic writings as possible and learning everything she could about the Catholic Faith I’ve held dear all my life.
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lilypadrees
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steve-b, you admitted to quoting part of a paragraph which you did several times. That takes things out of context and makes the meaning entirely different than that which was originally intended and therefore, wrong. That’s why I wanted to read the whole thing in order to get the proper context.
Since my hard copy of Lumen Gentium wasn’t within reach, I had to look online to compare what you posted with the full paragraphs. The link you provided didn’t work. So I did a Google search and found it myself reading what you had quoted first and then rereading the whole document.
I agree with what Lumen Gentium says. I do not agree with your partial quotes of those paragraphs which is what made your view wrong. Had you made a separate post without all the quotes from previous posts and just put the whole paragraphs in their entirety, we could’ve had a proper exchange which would’ve shown both you and rcwitness that I not only know my Catholic faith but that there is nothing relativistic about my views.
Since my hard copy of Lumen Gentium wasn’t within reach, I had to look online to compare what you posted with the full paragraphs. The link you provided didn’t work. So I did a Google search and found it myself reading what you had quoted first and then rereading the whole document.
I agree with what Lumen Gentium says. I do not agree with your partial quotes of those paragraphs which is what made your view wrong. Had you made a separate post without all the quotes from previous posts and just put the whole paragraphs in their entirety, we could’ve had a proper exchange which would’ve shown both you and rcwitness that I not only know my Catholic faith but that there is nothing relativistic about my views.
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rcwitness
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Yourpoint of view is that only if someone believes, accepts, converts their hearts are they actually being called by the Holy Spirit.
This is not true. Jesus and His Spirit are always at the door of our hearts calling us to believe the truth about Him, His Church, and His Eucharist.
You use an example of not observing Catholic Lent and Friday fasts to say God was not calling your mother to His Church. Well of course she was not compelled to do those things. They are things Catholic do during that season.
Im also sure she didnt put up a Christmas nativity scene during Easter! Lol. There are customs that come after conversion.
An atheist who doesnt think about reading Scripture in his free time is still being called to turn from his sins… and know God!
And so a Christian who was raised in a Baptist faith tradition is still being called to the Catholic altar, where we receive His body and blood.
This is not true. Jesus and His Spirit are always at the door of our hearts calling us to believe the truth about Him, His Church, and His Eucharist.
You use an example of not observing Catholic Lent and Friday fasts to say God was not calling your mother to His Church. Well of course she was not compelled to do those things. They are things Catholic do during that season.
Im also sure she didnt put up a Christmas nativity scene during Easter! Lol. There are customs that come after conversion.
An atheist who doesnt think about reading Scripture in his free time is still being called to turn from his sins… and know God!
And so a Christian who was raised in a Baptist faith tradition is still being called to the Catholic altar, where we receive His body and blood.
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