Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[JanSobieskiIII]

Not true. There’s a difference between formal and material heretics.

 

[guanophore]

I could see that. One thing Protestants do way better than Catholics is fellowships. I’ll give them that for sure.

I think the church needs to figure out a way to make catholic school more affordable for more Catholics, and teach the philosophy, history, etc. that makes the Catholic Church so deep to younger Catholics.

I am not sure if philosophy, history or other academics are necessarily what will most meet their needs for fellowship. Of course I think that a rigorous liberal education is best. What teens need is relationships with their peers. One great weakness we have is failing to challenge our young people. They need to be challenged with the reality of discipleship - radical Christian living in a sinful world. They are looking for meaning and purpose in life. Unless a person finds something they are willing to die for, they won’t have something to live for either.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to link fellowship and academics. I was just giving Prots the nod there. I should have made that more clear

 

[rcwitness]

I think the Catechism is what we consider the Teachings of the Christian faith, and their current applications.

While not everything is infallible, strictly speaking, most would be based on what has been infallibly Taught throughout the ages of the Church.

We can be very confident in what is presented in the Catechism, and unless we have an authoritive based reason to question something therein, we are bound to accept its content.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

The CCC is a wonderful resource

I know. I have been through it numerous times. My copy looks like a university textbook with many many notes. Not just reading it but checking all the references.

Just curious, in checking the references, have you found any errors?

 

[MichaelP3]

Yea I expected as much.

 

[mcq72]

The narrow way is narrow for a reason. Jesus established one Church on Peter and those in union with him. All the means of salvation Jesus gave to His Church… the narrow road

yes the church is the narrow path but the gate is Christ. That is context of the scripture…Jesus is the way, the Gate…we were first called people of the Way…yes the church is the pillar, the voice of God proclaiming Christ ,the Holy Spirit quickening the preachers/church’s words and the hearers heart. The Holy Spirit is the means. Yes the church baptizes, but last I heard baptisms are valid from "other " churches. The path to Christ may have slightly different voices but the doorbell and the Door is One, and Perfect. Sec. Vat finally (? well at least a change of heart from previous century) admitted that indeed other Churches have Christ, have passed thru the Door.

Sec. Vat shows the confusion when you admit that these other voices still lead to Christ, even bearing fruit , yet saying if they then knowingly don’t enter the Catholic Church they are not saved. (Still confusing even though The CC says the “other” voices still owe or show unity of CC.)

Perhaps it fits, for the CC even says that to its own members, that salvation is not a sure thing, unless one is in grace and right standing with Christ by being in right standing with Church at the last moment of life

 

[mcq72]

The road that is wide, is the one where everyone else, those not on the narrow road, are persuaded that their way, their faith, is the right one…

The road gets wider (from simplicity of Nicene Creed …2 pages?, to countless pages of Trent decrees) when you start defining a head bishop over patriarchs, what Eucharist is, who can be president of sunday service, who can forgive sins, using civil authorities to police church beginning at Nicene, various Mary doctrine, telling others when Easter is, etc.

 

[mcq72]

Are BOTH persuaded in their beliefs? Yes. The problem is, only one road (the narrow road) leads to salvation.

There is the conundrum, when both sides have same foundation (Catholic, per Vat II) and therefore both can lead to Christ, yet the CC says only one way leads to salvation ???

 

[mcq72]

How did Jesus qualify love for Him? He starts out with IF John 14:15 RSVCE - The Promise of the Holy Spirit - “If - Bible Gateway

yes thank you for references…they apply to all who have passed thru the Gate

 

[mcq72]

I’ve shown with proof properly referenced, That the Catholic Church is NOT a denomination. It is the original.

Well, first we were a Jewish movement, a Jewish sect. Then we were called Christian, separating us from Pagans. Then people of the Way. Then Catholic/Universal, to separate from gnostics and those that were never “of us, from us”. Then came Orthodox and P’s. The CC does not say the O 's and P’s were not “of us or from us”, that indeed were are “Christian” though not in perfect union. The point then being that the three, Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox are all “Christian” …all with same Christology and baptism. Original or not, denomination or not, all three are still three different choices for a searching soul, that lead to the Gate.

We can see then, that those in the denominational realm, each have to create a personal story to defend and justify themselves individually, as valid

All three can be guilty of some defending, some justifying. Playing the “original” card sometimes is that.

that division from the original is condemned

Yes, and so is "original " straying, going beyond all truth.

I personally see my roll as one giving information properly referenced.

yes thank you…let us be also hot or cold, but never indifferent, wish washy.

 

[steve-b]

The narrow way is narrow for a reason. Jesus established one Church on Peter and those in union with him. All the means of salvation Jesus gave to His Church… the narrow road

mcq72:

yes the church is the narrow path but the gate is Christ. That is context of the scripture…Jesus is the way, the Gate…we were first called people of the Way…yes the church is the pillar, the voice of God proclaiming Christ ,the Holy Spirit quickening the preachers/church’s words and the hearers heart. The Holy Spirit is the means. Yes the church baptizes, but last I heard baptisms are valid from "other " churches. The path to Christ may have slightly different voices but the doorbell and the Door is One, and Perfect. Sec. Vat finally (? well at least a change of heart from previous century) admitted that indeed other Churches have Christ, have passed thru the Door.

steve-b:

Yes

“The way” Acts 9:2 Acts 9:2 RSVCE - and asked him for letters to the - Bible Gateway

AND

kataholos ekklesia “the church throughout all ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς = The Catholic Church Acts 9:31

That’s “The Way’” and His Church. The Church He established on Peter and those in union with Peter. The Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of truth

There is to be absolutely zero division in His Church. As Paul said to the Church of Rome Rom16:17-20 RSVCE - Final Instructions - I appeal to you, - Bible Gateway Those who divide don’t serve Our Lord but their own selfish appetites. And who will God crush Satan under? The Church of Rome’s feet.

mcq72:

Sec. Vat shows the confusion when you admit that these other voices still lead to Christ, even bearing fruit , yet saying if they then knowingly don’t enter the Catholic Church they are not saved. (Still confusing even though The CC says the “other” voices still owe or show unity of CC.)

steve-b:

Vat II in Lumen Gentium, http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html , it is clear on the purpose of ecumenism. see paragraphs 14 & 28 as an example

mcq72:

Perhaps it fits, for the CC even says that to its own members, that salvation is not a sure thing, unless one is in grace and right standing with Christ by being in right standing with Church at the last moment of life

anyone Dying in mortal sin will send that soul to hell.

Not my words.

From Paul Note: the consequences if one dies in any of these sins

Ephesians 5:3-5 Douay-Rheims Bible, Ephesians Chapter 5

Hebrews 10:23-27 # SEARCH heb 10
missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.

Galatians 5: 19 - 21 # SEARCH gal 5

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Douay-Rheims Bible, 1 Corinthians Chapter 6

 

[mcq72]

Hebrews 10:23-27 # SEARCH heb 10

missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.

actually, perhaps the CC makes things narrower than writ intended, going beyond all truth…did not know missing one Eucharistic service deliberately and being a mortal sin is same as “forsaking,abandoning assembling together”.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Hebrews 10:23-27 # SEARCH heb 10

missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.

actually, perhaps the CC makes things narrower…did not know missing one Eucharistic service deliberately and being a mortal sin is same as "forsaking,abandoning assembling together".

The mass in scripture

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine) Heb 10:19-31 RSVCE - A Call to Persevere - Therefore, - Bible Gateway
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment,and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Unpacking that

deliberate Failure to meet on the Day, is already a sin with huge consequences
“the Day” = the LORD’S DAY / Sunday/ the Day Our Lord Resurrected

What are they doing when they meet?

“sacrifice for sin”, & “blood of the covenant” = the words Our Lord spoke instituting the
Eucharist
Matthew 26:28 , Mt 26:28 RSVCE - for this is my blood of the covenant, - Bible Gateway
Mark 14:24 , Mark 14:24 RSVCE - And he said to them, “This is my - Bible Gateway

i.e. They are celebrating the Mass, the Eucharist

THAT’s why those who deliberately fail to celebrate Mass (the Eucharist) on Sunday after being given the knowledge of truth,
◦ there no longer remains, a sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant for Them
◦ They Spurn the Son of God
◦ They outrage the spirit of grace
◦ a fearful prospect of judgement awaits Them
◦ and a fury of fire will consume these adversaries

Re: sin

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?
Does it sound like a venial sin to deliberately miss Mass on Sunday or a mortal sin?

 

[mcq72]

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?

The context is more of apostasy, where one would eventually abandon not just a sunday gathering , but the faith in Calvary’s sacrifice itself. Those who were in habit of not assembling were thought to be Jewish (Hebrews), as reverting back to saturday sabbath, and eventual falling away. I do not prefer to accentuate abandoning the Eucharist rite over the context of abandoning the faith in Christ’s atonement.

Also, the text only explicitly mentions one aspect of the gathering, that of exhorting one another (not reading of scriptures or eucharist, the other two aspects that Martyr mentions of his description of a gathering). So no, Paul is not saying missing an occassional gathering is abandoning the faith, or that you must go every sunday to avoid penalty.

 

[Gorgias]

I’ll answer this if you answer mine: Do you believe God calls Catholics to be preachers and teachers in churches separated from holy communion with all non-CC Leaders?

Let’s see what your perspective on this question is!

Do you believe God called Gnostics to be preachers and teachers in their churches that were separated from holy communion with all non-Catholic leaders?

Do you believe God calls Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons to be preachers and teachers in their churches?

Given that you think that the Catholic Church teaches things that are in contradiction to the Gospels, do you think that God calls men to be preachers and teachers in the Catholic Church and teach what the Catholic Church teaches?

 

[mcq72]

Wow

Yes, the conundrum of realists and hard liners, as played out at Vat II. The CC admitting the reality of abounding spiritual life even genuine, in other churches (though owing to CC)but having to please hardliners who hold to no salvation outside CC, by later writing if one knowingly rejects CC, they be lost.

 

[LilyM]

rcwitness:

Wow

Yes, the conundrum of realists and hard liners, as played out at Vat II. The CC admitting the reality of abounding spiritual life even genuine, in other churches (though owing to CC)but having to please hardliners who hold to no salvation outside CC, by later writing if one knowingly rejects CC, they be lost.

“Abounding” is overselling it a touch. Even St JP2, who was anything but a hardliner on ecumenism, called non-Catholic Christian sects ‘gravely deficient’.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Does that sound like it’s only a suggestion to attend Mass on Sunday, or a command?

I made some modifications to your thoughts

mcq72
The context is more of apostasy, where one would eventually abandon not just a sunday gathering , but the faith in Calvary’s sacrifice itself. Those who were in habit of not assembling were thought to be Jewish (Hebrews), as reverting back to saturday sabbath, and eventual falling away. I do not prefer to accentuate abandoning the Eucharist rite over the context of abandoning the faith in Christ’s atonement.

Also, the text only explicitly mentions one aspect of the gathering, that of exhorting one another (not reading of scriptures or eucharist, the other two aspects that Martyr mentions of his description of a gathering). So no, Paul is not saying missing an occassional gathering is abandoning the faith, or that you must go every sunday to avoid penalty.,

Note: CCC # 2178 talks about these verses in Heb 10 as having to do with liturgy, as in the mass on Sunday
With these footnotes as support
112 Cf. Acts 2:42-46; 1 Cor 11:17.
113 Heb 10:25.

This is the progression of thought
The CCC http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

 

[lilypadrees]

I’ve read and studied Lumen Gentium in its entirety.

You have taken sentences out of their proper context so that the true meaning is not what you claim it to be.