Does God call people to be separate from Catholic Eucharist

[rcwitness]

rcwitness:

Wannano:

Benadam:

I can’t believe that protestants and non-catholics would think that God sent His Son to die a horrible death, to institute a Church, establish her in uncorrupted Truth, if His Church was just going to become corrupt and look like any other work of man. That isn’t how the Holy Spirit guides into all truth.

I can understand why you have trouble. Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

How about the structure of God’s buiding?

Is the Church structureless, or lawless?

No need to take everything over to the far side of the spectrum to discredit.

The NT clearly outlines that the Church is a community of intentional love and brotherhood with leadership that was designed to be a role of servant hood.

Isnt that the ultimatum you proposed?

“or the structure of man?”

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

rcwitness:

Wannano:

Benadam:

I can’t believe that protestants and non-catholics would think that God sent His Son to die a horrible death, to institute a Church, establish her in uncorrupted Truth, if His Church was just going to become corrupt and look like any other work of man. That isn’t how the Holy Spirit guides into all truth.

I can understand why you have trouble. Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

How about the structure of God’s buiding?

Is the Church structureless, or lawless?

No need to take everything over to the far side of the spectrum to discredit.

The NT clearly outlines that the Church is a community of intentional love and brotherhood with leadership that was designed to be a role of servant hood.

Isnt that the ultimatum you proposed?

“or the structure of man?”

No ultimatum intended.

 

[SnoopSword]

Isnt that the ultimatum you proposed?

“or the structure of man?”

It’s a phantom structure that lives in his imagination. These concepts act as a ‘phantom bread’ that he uses to feed his personal god of salvation because it is also amphantom that lives in his imagination.

In REALITY, the True God is a God of order. The Church has had a proven order for 2000 years. The same method of Salvation for 2000 years - even among the mainline Protestants (in a basic sense).

But all that’s needed is common sense. Sure, we can get into Scripture and I can prove I’m correct. But he’ll just do the same and claim he’s correct. But this is to be expected and what has been prophecied in the STRONGEST terms:

Recall that Satan used real Scripture to kill Jesus. And notice WHERE he did it - at the top of what we call a ‘church steeple’ today. Symbolically Satan using Scripture as his weapon to remove Jesus from the top (read: head) of the church. Note that if Jesus is removed from that church, Satan remains standing up there as the new head of that individual church (since he can never prevail against the Whole True Church in its entirety). Once again, his method in accomplishing this is through real Scripture.

Since theres no ‘tall-tiered’, properly functioning hierarchical structures with Satan (see Job, Demoniac etc), that particular church now leaves the grace of orderly communion on heaven and earth. It becomes an Individual local meeting club or Lodge but with a universal name badge, so their imagination can believe they are part of some God-given grace to exist. Just like this example:

“The absolute oneness of the craft is a glorious thought (lol! sound familiar??). Neither boundaries of States, nor vast oceans separate the Masonic fraternity. Everywhere it is one. There is no universal [catholic] church, but there is a universal fraternity, Freemasonry” (Freemason’s Chronicle, 1906, II, 132).

As he admits, it’s only in his imagination - his glorious thought that Freemasons are in some sort of universal oneness.

In REALITY every lodge is profit driven, out for itself, and discriminates against its own.

In REALITY, 2000 years of history and supernatural miracles easily demonstrate the Universal [Catholic] Church.

In REALITY, people use Scripture to justify another head of their church which lives only in their imagination, but in reality there is a hidden head of their church that really does exist, and they serve it. They do its bidding but can’t see it. Yes indeed they do serve it (the authentic Head of the Church serves down to people - not vice versa)

Eventually a Day will come when REALITY strikes all, and some will say “Lord! Lord!..” and Jesus will say to them…

 

[guanophore]

Ok…i would call it oral testimony also…and you cover many things/(name removed by moderator)uts…receiving the gospel from Christ is mixed in there but I would say is primary…big…for three years is what is supposed…dont have writ in front of me but i think rc stated correctly a bout the no man…perhaps like an independent study, apart from apostles, yet from same teacher…quite a testament to the validity of the gospel itself, of the one Shepherd and one Paraclete

Yes, and it is critical that Paul states, although he conferred with the other Aposltes, they did not “add” anything to his. On the contrary, it seems that his "added"more to theirs! But whether it was independent study, learning from communities of believers, or direct revelation, Paul certain did study to show himself approved. He was masterful in arguing with Jews and Pagans alike because he was so well read.

I think he spend much time in Christian communities all around the world and learned from them as they learned from Him.

Romans 1:12 that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other’s faith, both yours and mine.

Well, how many get knocked off a horse after persecuting the church?

Actually many have a strong conversion experience, butit may be that Paul was not on a horse at the time.

The Romans tended to confiscate the horses and force the locals to walk.

We get our renegades, but yes not as often as you.

How did you establish that!?

the LAST SUPPER

The modern Passover, yes, but I was not speaking about the Passover feast, I was referring to the blessing of the Bread. It is like our Catholic Blessing before eating. Not connected to a special occasion.

But apart from those rare cases, most have absolutely NO CLUE who God is or what Christianity is.

I think I missed your point here. Are you debunking all of Christianity?

Reason is thrown out the window.

This is certainly not the case with Catholicism, and with due respect, I spent three years in a Protestant Seminary studying theology, Christian History, and Literary criticism, and this required quite a bid of “reason”, to say nothing of the reams of research papers!

 

[guanophore]

I can’t believe that protestants and non-catholics would think that God sent His Son to die a horrible death, to institute a Church, establish her in uncorrupted Truth, if His Church was just going to become corrupt and look like any other work of man. That isn’t how the Holy Spirit guides into all truth.

It will be easier to believe when one studies the Medici popes, and the actions of Leo X to use the proceeds from the “sale of indulgences” to build St. Peter’s Basilica.

Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

It is both of those things, but beyond and above both of those is the Structure of Christ. It was He who chose Apostles, and directed them to choose successors, and guided them to defend the infallible truth that was once for all deposited to the saints. It is these divine elements that make the Church inerrant, not the human contribution.

The NT clearly outlines that the Church is a community of intentional love and brotherhood with leadership that was designed to be a role of servant hood.

True, but this does not mean there was no authority, or no visible structure.

Isnt that the ultimatum you proposed?

It was an inadequate representation of the basic facts. It rules out the structure that Jesus established.

It’s a phantom structure that lives in his imagination.

On the contrary, Protestants retain the structure they understand is reflected in Scripture. They are also strongly influenced by the structure developed during the Reformation, that was designed to eliminate the Catholic authority. For that reason, it does not love only in His imagination, but lives in history, and in Scripture.

 

[SnoopSword]

It’s a phantom structure that lives in his imagination.

guanophore:

On the contrary, Protestants retain the structure they understand

Exactly - a phantom of the imagination - not a visible, literal structure on earth and in heaven:

VISIBLE CHURCH IS THE TRUE STRUCTURE: 1 Tim 3:15 I write so that you may know how you ought to CONDUCT YOURSELF in the HOUSE of GOD, which is THE CHURCH of the LIVING GOD, the PILLAR and GROUND of the TRUTH.

 

[Benadam]

It will be easier to believe when one studies the Medici popes, and the actions of Leo X to use the proceeds from the “sale of indulgences” to build St. Peter’s Basilica.

It is amazing that even they couldn’t mess things up. Btw do you believe the Church teaches error?

Edit Nevermind guanophore, no need to answer I know already.

 

[Benadam]

I can understand why you have trouble. Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

Like I said, I can’t believe you think God established a Church that would end up without anything of Him to distinguish it from any other work of man. Do you really believe God would institute a visible society of people He calls 'Me" establish them in Truth without error, promise them His Holy Spirit and that He would lead them to all truth, if it was just going to adulterate His Truth with error and look like any other religion? That don’t make sense.Do you really believe what God instituted isn’t distinguishable from any other work of man?

to answer your Question. It’s a participation in Divine life. Plus what you said but not the meaning you give it.

 

[Benadam]

I can understand why you have trouble. Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

Is there a reason God became visible? A new life within people becomes gnostic without a visible structure on earth that is handed down from Our Savior. On a Rock the Church is. You have reduced it to a mist no one can see. What Jesus made visible is still visible. It’s on a rock.

 

[guanophore]

Exactly - a phantom of the imagination - not a visible, literal structure on earth and in heaven:

All Protestant ecclesial communities have structure. Some of them more, some less (one cannot lump all “protestants” together. Some of these structures are quite visible, and more Catholic than not.

 

[Wannano]

Wannano:

I can understand why you have trouble. Is the Church Jesus established the combined result of new life within people or the structure of man?

Like I said, I can’t believe you think God established a Church that would end up without anything of Him to distinguish it from any other work of man. Do you really believe God would institute a visible society of people He calls 'Me" establish them in Truth without error, promise them His Holy Spirit and that He would lead them to all truth, if it was just going to adulterate His Truth with error and look like any other religion? That don’t make sense.Do you really believe what God instituted isn’t distinguishable from any other work of man?

to answer your Question. It’s a participation in Divine life. Plus what you said but not the meaning you give it.

I think we are talking past each other. I recognize I should have worded differently.

 

[Wannano]

SnoopSword:

Exactly - a phantom of the imagination - not a visible, literal structure on earth and in heaven:

All Protestant ecclesial communities have structure. Some of them more, some less (one cannot lump all “protestants” together. Some of these structures are quite visible, and more Catholic than not.

I never meant that there is no structure or visibility. In your opinion, are the Protestant ecclesial communities the structure of men? Are they also God ordained Churches?

 

[SnoopSword]

All Protestant ecclesial communities have structure.

Please show me where you see a Protestant church listed here: Link

Here is the reason why:

UNITED METHODIST CREED: “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH, the COMMUNION OF SAINTS

ANGLICAN CHURCH CREED: “We declare this Church to be…UNITED under the One Divine Head and in the fellowship of the ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH - The Solemn Declaration of 1893

EPISCOPALIAN CHURCH CREED “I believe ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH”… “Gracious Father, we pray for thy HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH” “The Church is described as ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC.” - The Book Of Common Prayer, According to the use of The Episcopal Church

OFFICIAL CREED OF THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH "Unto this CATHOLIC AND VISIBLE CHURCH [6.142]

LUTHERAN CREED: “Do you believe in the Holy Spirit, the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH , the COMMUNION OF SAINTS , the FORGIVENESS OF SINS” Following each question, the candidate answers by saying “Yes, I believe”. --Lutheran Service Book

This is a Protestant Church: (St. Paul’s United Methodist Church)


This is a Protestant Church: (Grace Lutheran Church)


This is a Protestant Church: (Episcopal Church of St. Mary the Virgin -NY)


This is a Protestant Church: (Fourth Presbyterian Church -Chicago)


This is a church of the imagination. In reality sales people doing street marketing for their business venture which survives off missionizing Catholic and Protestant sheep


This is a church of the imagination. They use the book for legitimacy. In reality it’s a business venture that survives off missionizing Catholic and Protestant sheep


“HOW MUCH does a Pastor make? The median annual Pastor salary is $93,154, as of October 30, 2017, with a range usually between $76,557-$105,579” - Salaray .com

 

[mcq72]

Ask anybody on the the street…know of a baptist church or lutheran church etc (a P church) and you will be pointed to a church

But perhaps we are invisible, lacking a pope and cardinals

 

[rcwitness]

Ask anybody on the the street…know of a baptist church or lutheran church etc (a P church) and you will be pointed to a church

But perhaps we are invisible, lacking a pope and cardinals

But try asking someone on the street “Does the Church Teach that Jesus permitted His followers to divorce and remarry?”

What will they say?

 

[Benadam]

But perhaps we are invisible, lacking a pope and cardinals

Can someone point to them and say there is the Church that is lead by the successor of Peter who Jesus gave the keys of the Kingdom to and on whom He founded His Church?

 

[jcrichton]

Did I missed that part of St. John 6?

Where did Jesus state that those who left Him were actually not part of the Fold or not true Believers?

As a matter of fact, where does Jesus ever state that those who leave were never part of the Fold or not true Believers?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The blessing before meals is an every day blessing, not a Passover prayer. It has been imported into the Mass from the Synagogue liturgy.

So when does this “blessing of the bread and wine” takes place as a daily Jewish prayer? Could you explain where the Jewish prayer has:

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

St. Paul does not make the connection with a Jewish daily prayer, here’s what he states:

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11)

Clearly there’s a separation between everyday life’s food intake and the Lord’s Supper!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

That would have been something! But not recorded, so like when you fix something, start out with the simplest, which I think would have been seeing His hands…simple yet quite dramatic…my eyeballs would have been poppin out , mouth wide open…but again not recorded either.

The problem is disbelief; not “not recorded!”

You reject Apostolic Succession, which includes both the Oral and Written Traditions; so you cannot ascertain how or what took place. You simply claim it lost in history.

Consider the New Covenant Writings; these were not Written from the get go; Jesus did not Command any scribes to follow Him around taking down His “quotes.” Still, the Holy Spirit Inspire the Writing of the New Covenant–yet only after at least a couple of decades of Oral Tradition.

What you insinuate as flaw or wanting is rooted in the same source as all of the Gospels: Apostolic Succession (Teaching and Tradition).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I like your question because it shows how misunderstandings also exist on your side of the interpretation of the Eucharist. The idea of bringing bread and wine to the infirm was not to feed them lunch or supper in the natural sense. If it was then they may as well have eaten their own food in the pantry. You are right saying that.

Actually you missed my point. My statement goes to the “symbol.” Why would the Church need to bring a tiny portion of a symbolic thing to a place where there’s way more (like bringing a glass of salt water to the ocean). Hence, the practice demonstrates that the Sacramental Bread and Wine had a superhuman value (Extraordinary Ministry).

To have a whole loaf present at the Communion service and breaking it into individual segments is a more literal replication of what Christ did than serving factory made wafers. Why has that literal practice been changed? The whole loaf represents the physical body of Christ which we all agree was broken for us. It also represents the Body of Christ, the Church, of which together we all are a part of. It is a privilege to break and consume a morsel of bread from the whole loaf that represents Christ’s Body and by doing so together the communicants identify, share and proclaim their obedience to Christ and His teaching and their common identity in love and brotherhood with those who proclaim to be at peace with God and fellow man.

You continue to exist outside of the Body. It is not about “representation.” We are not representing Christ. Christ is Become Bread and Wine!

The wine could well be taking out of skins (as it was the practice then or out of a barrel or bottle; the bread changed in design continues to be the same type (material) unleavened wheat flour.

It is the Consecration that makes the Bread and Wine, not the organic materials of which bread and wine is composed!

Maran atha!

Angel