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mcq72
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No, but believe he was taught 3 years in wilderness, some time after his conversion
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Wannano
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Paragraph 819 CC The Spirit uses these CHURCHES and Ecclesial bodies as a means of salvation.jcrichton:
I am not sure what you are meaning to say here, but the Catechism clearly states that those who are validly baptized are members of His One Body, the Church.
On the contrary, those who did not believe from the beginning were unable to accept what He said literally, where those who placed their faith in HIm accepted what He said as “words of eternal life” even though they did not understand how they could be literally true. They may have had more understanding after Passover, but perhaps not until Pentecost.
I agree, though, those who are not following in the heart, and not willing to accept that which contradicts the senses, will eventually walk away from him.
Yes, they are structured by men, but they cannot be defined as “churches” as they lack the four marks of the Church passed on to us from the Apostles.
“Although the ecclesial communities separated from us [non-Catholic baptized
Christians] lack the fullness of unity with us which flows from baptism, and although
we believe they have not preserved the proper reality of the eucharistic mystery in
its fullness [their eucharist is not the body of Christ], especially because of the
absence of the sacrament of Orders, nevertheless when they commemorate the
Lord’s death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in
communion with Christ and await his coming in glory. For these reasons, the
doctrine about the Lord’s Supper, about the other sacraments, worship, and
ministry in the Church, should form subjects of dialogue.”
Decree on Ecumenism, no. 22
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mcq72
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Not sure what you mean…gathering what, leftover elements of communion to distribute to those unable to attend service?
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guanophore
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It may sound the same, but the difference is critical. The Apostles taught that Jesus’ word were, indeed, “literal” (notwithstanding the false dichotomy that literal = physical and literal does not equal “real”).
This is because we understand what is written through the lens of Sacred Tradition. The context of the NT is the CAtholic Church. The catholic faith was whole and entire before a word of it was ever written. But, when the Sacred Tradition (the teaching of Christ received through the Apostles) was committed to writing, it reflects the Catholic faith. The NT is a product of Sacred Tradition. It was produced by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic.
So for us, of course this is opposite.
From a certain point if view, yes. “Doctrine” being the teachings of Jesus. He established a visible structure in the Church He founded. I think it is more accurate to say that the Church is visibly structured by Christ, but since He is not separate from His teachings…
Correct. A Church is defined/described by the four marks identified by the Apostles.
When used in the context of the Church founded by Christ, no. The human customs of nationalism have had a tremendous impact, especially in Orthodoxy.
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guanophore
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I can understand why it would seem this way. But this is not about “disagree with you”. It is about the status of those who reject the Apostolic faith.
The apostolic directive is quite clear:
Titus 3:11 The first step is to avoid the things which create quarrels and dissensions. This cannot include the core elements of the faith.
Second, if there is a person that cannot set their divisiveness aside, then they are to be warned. The text says that the false teacher “stirs up dissension,” indicating that he is looking for an opportunity to argue over his special doctrine.
Last, if the person continues to stir up dissension, then the church is to shun the person as a false teacher.
1 Timothy 1:3 [ Warning against False Teachers ] As I urged you when I was going to Macedo′nia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine
different doctrine = ἑτεροδιδασκαλεῖν
heterodoxy, or what is currently referred to euphemistically as “doctrinal distinctives”.
indeed…
Yes, but only the Orthodox have the apostolic marks of the Church… All others are ecclesial communities, lacking one or more of the marks.
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SnoopSword
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Martin Luther was well aware of who holds the Keys. It seems all Mainline Protestants at the higher levels understand they are only standing because the Pope’s grace long ago allowed them to. It’s interesting to see their discussion panels on Youtube. Sad at the sametime because the wolves seriously ravish their flocks.
They don’t know how to deal with the situation of non-Protestants now calling themselves Protestants and their flocks thinking its okay to leave their religion for a essentially a rock concert under another baptism and a fabricated Creed of man.
I saw a video from some Lutheran Church and the speaker said he sent his kids to an Evangelical youth camp. You guessed it. They were told they were not Christian at all, in a false religion, and needed to be saved (rebaptised and under new oaths). Imagine the hurt of the parents to come to learn such a large group of their fellow ‘christian’ countrymen were actually an enemy in their midst all along.
So they are learning now the reality that the Catholic Church is not their enemy and much of the history is fake and faricated from American cults and their folklore. Heck, one guy said literally that the catholics came and brought civilization to America.
(I would NEVER put Baptist and Lutheran beside each other in our modern times. They share nothing in common with each other in the least.)
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Benadam
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Not so much what you are disbelieving. It’s what you are believing. Things Christians never believed before. You are there among the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, worse yet with Mohamed. That the Church lost the Truth handed to her from Jesus.
Before you deny that, tell me where is the Church that is error free like the one Jesus gave His error free teaching to? The one that taught and handed on and then again handed on error free?
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Benadam
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Never thought of that before. An echoing of history. The offenders get a taste of their own medicine. Like being winnowed at the threshing floor. May God’s grace bring them to repentance. I like your posts btw.
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SnoopSword
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Well there is a relation.
1 Cor 11:2 REMEMBER me in all things and KEEP THE TRADITIONS just as I DELIVERED THEM to you [PAST TENSE] -(The Gospels do not teach traditions - real humans do)
NABRE COMMENTARY: “1 Cor 11:2–14:40: This section of the letter is devoted to REGULATION of CONDUCT at the LITURGY” -(Hence, this section can ONLY be meant as a clarifyication/follow-up regarding the ‘traditions’ that was PREVIOUSLY delivered to them IN PERSON. This is DEFINITIVE PROOF that the Bible alone is INSUFFICIENT for Christianity - even at a BASIC level).
There’s also more… of course:
1 Cor 11:1 Be ye FOLLOWERS OF ME, even as I also am of Christ. -(not Jesus ALONE!) - (Tradition)
1 Thes 1:6 YOU became FOLLOWERS of US AND of the LORD -(not Jesus ALONE!) - (Tradition)
2 Jn 1:9 DON’T KEEP CHANGING what you WERE TAUGHT [PAST TENSE] about Christ (Tradition)
1 Cor 11:2 REMEMBER me in all things and KEEP THE TRADITIONS just as I DELIVERED THEM to you [PAST TENSE] -(Gospels do not teach traditions - men do)
2 Jn 1:9 …HOLD FIRMLY to what you WERE TAUGHT [PAST TENSE] , BOTH THE FATHER AND THE SON will be with you. (Tradition)
2 Thes 2:5 Do you not REMEMBER [PAST TENSE] that when I WAS WITH YOU [IN PERSON] (Tradition)
2 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, STAND FIRM and HOLD THE TRADITIONS which you WERE TAUGHT [PAST TENSE] -(Paul taught them in person - Gospels do not teach traditions)
2 Thes 3:6 WITHDRAW from EVERY BROTHER who walks NOT according to THE TRADITION which he RECEIVED FROM US [PAST TENSE]. -(Gospels do not teach traditions)
APOSTLES HAD PRIVATE INSTRUCTION FROM JESUS OUTSIDE OF SCRIPTURE: Acts 20:35 “And remember THE WORDS of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” (Holy Spirit officially records an existing Tradition from Christ Himself… unless you disbelieve Scripture, of course. Nah that could NEVER happen could it?)
1 Cor 11:16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, WE have NO SUCH CUSTOM, nor do the CHURCHES OF GOD -(ALL Churches are KNOWN by same HUMAN authority and have SAME TRADITION)
And Finally:
Rev 2:2 You have TESTED those who SAY they are APOSTLES but are NOT and have discovered THEY ARE LIARS
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SnoopSword
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MARTIN LUTHER:
“'So we stand here and IN AWE staring up to HEAVEN and yet we INVENT OTHER KEYS [read: phantom keys of the imagination]. Yet Christ says VERY CLEARLY says that He will give THE KEYS of HEAVEN to Peter.
He does NOT SAY He has TWO KINDS OF KEYS, but He gives to Peter the keys He Himself has, and NO OTHERS. It is as if He were saying: WHY are you staring heavenward IN SEARCH of THE KEYS? Do you NOT UNDERSTAND I GAVE THEM TO PETER?
It is as if He were saying…They are INDEED the keys of Heaven, but they are NOT FOUND in Heaven. I left them ON EARTH. DON’T LOOK FOR THEM IN HEAVEN [read: imagination] or ANYWHERE ELSE…" --(Martin Luther, The Keys)
A Protestant church (St. Paul Lutheran Church, Fort Worth)
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mcq72
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If they were truly allowed so by “grace”, they would not have been called “protestant”.
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mcq72
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Yes and? Christ also has the keys as shown in Revelation…I suppose so that what He opens up or closes, so shall Peter with his set of keys.
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rcwitness
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Hey mc,
I dont usually like to get into the “keys” argument.
It is a matter of authority, and ultimately each individual has the choice of giving authority to Jesus, or not.
Do some give authority to the pope, but not Jesus? I think its very possible and likely.
Do some give the authority to Jesus, but not the pope? I think that is not very likely.
But giving Jesus authority is not a black and white thing, unless we are talking about one specific issue. We all fail to give Him authority in certain areas at certain times.
Btw, what do you think of my question to you in post 1881?
I dont usually like to get into the “keys” argument.
It is a matter of authority, and ultimately each individual has the choice of giving authority to Jesus, or not.
Do some give authority to the pope, but not Jesus? I think its very possible and likely.
Do some give the authority to Jesus, but not the pope? I think that is not very likely.
But giving Jesus authority is not a black and white thing, unless we are talking about one specific issue. We all fail to give Him authority in certain areas at certain times.
Btw, what do you think of my question to you in post 1881?
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Agathon
Guest
You’ll find John Chrysostom in agreement with these very same people. It isn’t a preconconception.
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Agathon
Guest
Reading the text as it is means that Christ was speaking literally. It’s your forced interpretation that gives it a symbolic meaning.
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SnoopSword
Guest
So basically your imagination is going to erase the keys given to Peter into some heavenly phantom nonsense because of something in Revelation. Even Martin Luther is disagrees with you. And he’s ‘Mr Protestant’.
This Jesus of your imagination… this phantom construct of yours. This cartoon scenario in your imagination… that phantom Jesus of yours is just sitting up there with keys and he’s going to give you entry into heaven… because… well… YOU ARE THAT SPECIAL and cool. Uh huh.
Now you must question if your really Christian in the least. Or are you a modern folk pagan.
YIKES! Can’t make this stuff up! When do we begin to recognize what is Christian, and what is OUTSIDE of the faith completely?
Or maybe you figured out he real secret of the keys. Is that it?
The Pope has the key to heaven. So he ‘ultimately’ dictates who is a Christian, and the requirements of getting into heaven. But he doesn’t have the keys to hell so the Church cannot condemn to hell. That will happen at Judgement and it won’t be the Pope doing that.
The Roman Pontiff is trying his best to help all men get to heaven. But you refuse to co-operate. Instead you choose your imagine as depicted below:
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mcq72
Guest
Sorry, my bad…capitalized the “h” in “his keys”… both Jesus and Peter have keys…i corrected my post
As to Luther, did he say all popes have keys…does he says other apostles also had keys?
Again, Peter wad indeed given keys, and first to use them.
Not sure but do you imagine Jesus has no keys, as per Revelation, that He does not open and close doors, that gates of hell were not opened?
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rcwitness
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Isnt that the crux? How can Jesus and Peter have the same keys?
Maybe… just maybe, there is something to Infallibility?
You can call it God’s Sovereignty! He uses His keys through the Church! But that means that the Church must have them! If it was only Him, then He would come down and speak. As it is, He must speak through the Church.
P.S. dont forget post 1881
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mcq72
Guest
Well, where is the binding and loosing goin on, in two places, no?
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rcwitness
Guest
Yes. Jesus referred to the binding and loosening in the leaders of the Church. Which He bestowed in John 20 (breathed on them).
This has to do with Absolution.
Jesus elsewhere requires the disciples to forgive all sins. Yet He then says what they do not forgive will not be forgiven!
So the sins of some are not forgiven on account of not repenting. Not on account of the disciples not offering their forgiveness.
But this is not the only manner in which the keys of Peter are to be used. The keys symbolize authority to bind and loose “whatever”. Though it may be understood as moral right and wrong. That is, confirming what is right and what is wrong.
This has to do with Absolution.
Jesus elsewhere requires the disciples to forgive all sins. Yet He then says what they do not forgive will not be forgiven!
So the sins of some are not forgiven on account of not repenting. Not on account of the disciples not offering their forgiveness.
But this is not the only manner in which the keys of Peter are to be used. The keys symbolize authority to bind and loose “whatever”. Though it may be understood as moral right and wrong. That is, confirming what is right and what is wrong.
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