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Apollos
Guest
Yeah whatever you wanna play that game fine bye
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FaithJoy
Guest
I think we are blowing past each other but agree on some level here.Body, spirit and soul are separate from each other when sin is involved. We are dead to God when we sin, not nessasarily physical death. God’s intent in His creation didn’t want sin to separate the soul by a man’s way of sinning. So, many times the bible does speak of the soul/spirit as individual and separate when God first created perfection before and after sin drove a wedge. At physical death, the spirit leaves the body, not the soul. Jesus proved this on the cross," into your hands I commend my spirit". His Body left behind, His spirit went to the Father. At resurrection time of Jesus, He became a soul again.
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neophyte
Guest
This makes you a Protestant.
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zarthan
Guest
No, only by your definition. I am not a member of a Protestant denomination. By the defiintion of sacred scriptures, I am a member of the household of God, the universal body of Christ. That is, **if **I am not only a hearer of God’s word, but also a doer of God’s word.
“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit”
Eph.3:19-22
"For what the law, weakened by the flesh, was powerless to do, this God has done:by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for the sake of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous decree of the law might be fulfilled in us, who live not according to the flesh but according to the spirit. For those who live according to the flesh are concerned with the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the spirit with the things of the spirit. The concern of the flesh is death, but the concern of the spirit is life and peace. For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God"
Romans 8:8:3-8
“Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved in whom my soul is well pleased”
Matt.12:18
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zarthan
Guest
FaithJoy said:
At physical death, the spirit leaves the body, not the soul. Jesus proved this on the cross," into your hands I commend my spirit". His Body left behind, His spirit went to the Father. At resurrection time of Jesus, He became a soul again.
I think you would be hard pressed to prove this belief in scripture, or by the teaching of the Catholic church.
Then Jesus said to them, This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, for it is written: 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of flock will be dispersed’
He took along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to feel sorrow and distress. Then he said to them**,“My soul is exceedingly sorrowful even as unto death**”
Matt.26:31,37-8.
At physical death, the spirit leaves the body, not the soul. Jesus proved this on the cross," into your hands I commend my spirit". His Body left behind, His spirit went to the Father. At resurrection time of Jesus, He became a soul again.
I think you would be hard pressed to prove this belief in scripture, or by the teaching of the Catholic church.
Then Jesus said to them, This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, for it is written: 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of flock will be dispersed’
He took along Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to feel sorrow and distress. Then he said to them**,“My soul is exceedingly sorrowful even as unto death**”
Matt.26:31,37-8.
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neophyte
Guest
You are arrogating to yourself the authority that Christ gave to the teaching authority of the Church, so in effect you are a Protestant. You are a member of a denomination which consists of a single person - yourself.
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zarthan
Guest
These are the convictions that God has put on my soul. No Catholic is required to believe them. Tell me how they upset the clear message of the saving gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, and then I will shut up.
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
How do you KNOW that these convictions were placed by God? How do you know a prejudice from Divine Truth? Catholics know because the Church is infallible, but they themselves, individually know they are sinners and capable of erring.
Evangelicals and Protestants on the other hand do not believe in an infallible Church, but rather arrogate that infallibility to themselves, as they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in spite of the fact that they all disagree with one another.
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zarthan
Guest
Well, it is written, "we know in part, and we prophesy in part’. I think this is true for myself and for the Catholic church, especially when the Word of God and the early church fathers do not give us a clear understanding on this question.How do you KNOW that these convictions were placed by God? How do you know a prejudice from Divine Truth? Catholics know because the Church is infallible, but they themselves, individually know they are sinners and capable of erring.
Evangelicals and Protestants on the other hand do not believe in an infallible Church, but rather arrogate that infallibility to themselves, as they all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, in spite of the fact that they all disagree with one another.
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Apollos
Guest
We Christians are touchy about our theology, especially the nature of God. Especially-especially challenges that come from convictions that God has supposedly put on someone’s soul. Regardless of whether they are proposed as optional or mandatory beliefs.
If you knew anything about our history you would understand.
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zarthan
Guest
It is one thing to challenge the teaching of sacred scripture and the early church fathers, it is another matter when it comes to the theology of the Son of God.
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Bookcat
Guest
Jesus founded a Church and that Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and certainly understands this correctly…God does not have “a divine soul”. Nor does Jesus (he has a soul from the moment of the incarnation)
One would not even know what books make up the canon of the Bible if it were not for the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit…
and as to understanding them…
Various founders of heresies and their followers have down through history have understood various verses in Scripture as “what God states as true”…
(and they have “used the scriptures” to back them up…saying this is what the Scriptures says)
…but if such contradicts what the Church defines for example…such is not true.
Thus another reason why Jesus founded a Church and gave that Church authority in his Name…and the Holy Spirit…
Yes what God states a true is true…but what I as an individual person think
“he stated” can be very wrong…or what they think God told them…can be very wrong…
“We should never read Scripture alone because we meet too many closed doors and could easily slip into error. The Bible has been written by the People of God and for the People of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Only in this communion with the People of God do we truly enter into the “we”, into the nucleus of the truth that God himself wants to tell us.”–Pope Benedict XVI vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20071114_en.html
(PS the Catholic Church is more than 325 years old…as the anti-nicean writers would point out from heaven today…they would recognize…as they did then the authority of the Church…)
One would not even know what books make up the canon of the Bible if it were not for the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit…
and as to understanding them…
Various founders of heresies and their followers have down through history have understood various verses in Scripture as “what God states as true”…
(and they have “used the scriptures” to back them up…saying this is what the Scriptures says)
…but if such contradicts what the Church defines for example…such is not true.
Thus another reason why Jesus founded a Church and gave that Church authority in his Name…and the Holy Spirit…
Yes what God states a true is true…but what I as an individual person think
“he stated” can be very wrong…or what they think God told them…can be very wrong…
“We should never read Scripture alone because we meet too many closed doors and could easily slip into error. The Bible has been written by the People of God and for the People of God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Only in this communion with the People of God do we truly enter into the “we”, into the nucleus of the truth that God himself wants to tell us.”–Pope Benedict XVI vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20071114_en.html
(PS the Catholic Church is more than 325 years old…as the anti-nicean writers would point out from heaven today…they would recognize…as they did then the authority of the Church…)
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zarthan
Guest
If the ‘church’ had a little bit more humility, and a little bit more wisdom, it would not have anathemized half the church for holding to semi-arian views on the theology of the Son of God.
Someone asked, how do you know that it is God who put these convictions on your soul?
I will make it brief. When the fire of God’s Spirit entered my soul, I was taught the scriptures. One of the things **that really bothered me **at the time,what I was taught regarding the theology of the Son of God is not as taught by most of Christianity today. You will never know how much I prayed to God not to be deceived nor to deceive anyone in this matter.
Years later, I learned about the Ante-Nicene writings,and realized that my understanding was not singular, but this theology of the Son of God was expressed by the early church fathers.
So, I do not know if it is the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the saints and martyrs that went before me. They need to be defended, I do know that much.
Someone asked, how do you know that it is God who put these convictions on your soul?
I will make it brief. When the fire of God’s Spirit entered my soul, I was taught the scriptures. One of the things **that really bothered me **at the time,what I was taught regarding the theology of the Son of God is not as taught by most of Christianity today. You will never know how much I prayed to God not to be deceived nor to deceive anyone in this matter.
Years later, I learned about the Ante-Nicene writings,and realized that my understanding was not singular, but this theology of the Son of God was expressed by the early church fathers.
So, I do not know if it is the Spirit of God, or the spirit of the saints and martyrs that went before me. They need to be defended, I do know that much.
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Bookcat
Guest
The Church is very humble. Humility has to do with truth. And is filled with wisdom.
The Church was teaching the* truth* regarding Christ…she could not do less.
This is part of the mission she has from Jesus himself.
(as to the history and who was actually anthemized (lots of misconceptions can arise here) and what such meant as an attempt to heal the persons involved …one can read the details in some good Catholic Histories…a forum space would not do justice to it)
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Bookcat
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Apollos
Guest
(I’ll just let that one stand on its own.)
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zarthan
Guest
How much different is what I said, than what Pope John Paul II said when he asked God’s forgiveness for the past sins of the Church?
sacredheart.edu/pages/12654_pope_john_paul_ii_asks_for_forgiveness_march_12_2000_.cfm
sacredheart.edu/pages/12654_pope_john_paul_ii_asks_for_forgiveness_march_12_2000_.cfm
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vsedriver
Guest
How can the Catholic Church only have the Eucharist and yet not have correct teaching? Maybe the fault lies not in the church teaching but in your understanding. Fortunately, you are not required to understand everything the church teaches. You just have to accept that the Church teachings are true.
Why do so many fear to put their trust in the Church’s teaching, when we have been assured by Christ himself that the Church will not fail.
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Bookcat
Guest
The Pope asked forgiveness for the sins of Christians not “of the Church”…
Individual Christians within the Church have sinned of course overs centuries.
Such is very different from the Pope asking forgiveness for proclaiming that God is God…or Jesus is the Logos made flesh…or that the Bible is the written Word of God…
such would not be something the Pope would do…
The Pope did not ask forgiveness for the Church teaching truth…
The Church was not wrong to declare semi-arianism a heresy.
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zarthan
Guest
Please don’t split hairs. It is most ridiculous. The church is made up of members of the body of Christ. When one member sins, the whole body, the whole church is affected.
The church is not soley defined by the members that reside in the Vatican, nor does it exclude them.
The Holy Father: Lord God, your pilgrim Church, which you ever sanctify in the blood of your Son, counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.
The church is not soley defined by the members that reside in the Vatican, nor does it exclude them.
The Holy Father: Lord God, your pilgrim Church, which you ever sanctify in the blood of your Son, counts among her children in every age members whose holiness shines brightly forth and members whose disobedience to you contradicts the faith we profess and the Holy Gospel. You, who remain ever faithful, even when we are unfaithful, forgive our sins and grant that we may bear true witness to you before all men and women. We ask this through Christ our Lord. R. Amen.
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