Does God violate our free will by making us die

[ZMystiCat]

What would the other causes be?

The person chose to reject God, both in their sin and their continual unrepentance.

perhaps there would be no more good moments in that persons life but that seems still absurdly unlikely

Is it? How many people live for decades without ever seeking out God, much less coming to Him?

On the flip side, considering you keep saying we shouldn’t die without choosing, how many people who are in a state of grace choose to die? So if they go fifty years without sinning mortally but also never wanting to die, there wouldn’t be a “good” moment under the conditions you’ve outlined.

And that brings us back to one of the problems that you still won’t directly address: How is giving people a choice in the matter any better when they may just decide to try to game the system, unrepentantly going through the motions near the time of the death? If anything, it seems death’s uncertainty is a mercy, in that it keeps us honest and allows us to better evaluate our hearts.

though the evil never being more serious(though still serious in our eyes) than the occasional bad thought or premarital sex

You need to commit to something here. Is it serious or not? Or to put it another way: Do you recognize that lust and fornications are rejects of God, distorting the good He gave us to embrace some absence of it? If so, do you think that that is serious?

In a sense yes I am a bit upset that God will force me to remain anchored to a potentially bad choice, it was not called for(the anchoring I mean, not the bad choice)

So the bad choice was called for? Among this, non-committal on the seriousness of sin, and an earlier comment about not thinking sin should be punished I’m thinking there’s something much worse here.

God makes it so easy to commit mortal sin

I again ask: Is it God making it easy for you to sin, or is it something else?

 

[Gorgias]

I do not like to feel like God will separate my soul simply because nature demands it.

He doesn’t. You’re acting as if either God flicks off your switch, or is the slave to nature. Neither is true.

Who is choosing that I die? God?

No one. It is a natural process.

 

[oliver109]

So God has no control over death you are saying? I thought God was the being that decides over when to separate a soul from a body.

 

[TheLittleLady]

God created this world. Through one man death entered the world. We are all living with the consequences of Adam’s sin.

God knows when we will die. He does not send a zapping bolt down from heaven to kill us.

 

[tafan2]

Yes, He could control exactly when we die as a miraculous act, ie Him reaching in an affecting the natural world via His omnipotent power. That is the definition of a miracle. They happen. But in general, the natural world goes on, sustained by God’s power, based on the laws of nature, which He created. Our death is part of that natural process. So while I would say it is not opposed to Church teaching to say that God actively decides exactly when we will die, I believe it is more inline with Church teaching to say that God knows when we will die and but our death is normally part of nature.
God does not decide that my grandmother got cancer. He could have miraculously cured her cancer and sustained her life longer. But in the end she died of cancer. Of course one could say , God decided when she would die by allowing the laws of nature to proceed as normal.

Note to all: I am more than willing to be corrected in my terminology or thoughts on this matter.

 

[Gorgias]

So God has no control over death you are saying?

What I’m saying is that God doesn’t exercise direct control in the way you’re thinking He does.

I thought God was the being that decides over when to separate a soul from a body.

Not in the way you’re thinking. He’s not sitting up there on a heavenly throne saying, “I’m gonna let Anna, Charles, and Edward die today, and Bob, David, and Francine die tomorrow.” No – that’s not what the Church teaches.

 

[oliver109]

What exactly does the church teach about how God decides our deaths?

 

[goout]

What exactly does the church teach about how God decides our deaths?

Christ came to give us life…to show us how to live, not to obsess about death.
I don’t think you’ll find the teaching you are looking for, because it’s not what the Gospel is, and the Church’s mission is to proclaim the Good News of Christ.

 

[oliver109]

Christ spoke about death a fair bit, he warned us a lot about how serious dying in a bad state can be which is why I often wonder if God is really with me after committing a mortal sin, could there be a day when God just abandons me and lets me wonder into Hell? There is a lot written about free will on here but not enough written about how God can ensure that a soul chooses Heaven by giving it irresistible grace.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Hebrews 9:27 sums it up

It is appointed that human beings die once

 

[Gorgias]

What exactly does the church teach about how God decides our deaths?

That’s the point. The Church doesn’t teach that God decides the moment of our deaths. I’m sorry, but you’ve been misinformed, if you think that He does.

 

[oliver109]

But do you agree that God can if he chooses keep us alive?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

could there be a day when God just abandons me and lets me wonder into Hell?

There has been a lot of thought put into this question in the various books I’ve read.

The general consensus is that, as long as the conscience is alive, and people are trying to live according to His will, God will not abandon a person to their sin.

However, I’ve read some views that say God allows people He sees will reject Him unto death to enjoy some temporal pleasures during life.

Personally, I don’t think God ever stops calling out to people, but that there’s definitely a point where a person has so thoroughly killed their conscience and damaged their soul that it is practically impossible for them to repent. Not truly impossible, nothing like this is truly impossible to God, but the person has to be willing to change.

Sadly, some people reach a point where they could be confronted with God manifesting Himself right in front of them, and they would just write it off as a dream or some freak occurrence. In the book I’m reading, the author says “He spoke of hallucinations, nightmares; perhaps he was asleep… there are many extraordinary unaccountable things… and other commonplaces, which constitute the comfort of freethinkers.” This is in response to a literal manifestation of a damned soul. If someone doesn’t want to believe, they won’t. (This is not a fictional work, this is a story related by close family members of what happened to one of them.) (Also, in case you’re unfamiliar with the term, “Freethinkers” is a moniker many atheists give themselves.)

 

[oliver109]

Fair answer, I think that I would be likely to be one of those beings in Gods favour as I never lose sight of him thank God and always always try to do the right thing, that is why the thought of me going to Hell not only terrifies me but also seems very unlikely as well. What I hear though from some saints is that Hell is a necessity in the sense that for Heaven to be as good as it is there have to be souls in Hell, they choose to go to Hell but were there to be no one in Hell then Heaven could not be quite as brilliant as it is. That makes me think that perhaps God is not anxious about saving souls from Hell but is neverless not pleased about it either.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Hell is a necessity in the sense that for Heaven to be as good as it is there have to be souls in Hell, they choose to go to Hell but were there to be no one in Hell then Heaven could not be quite as brilliant as it is

I really feel like this must be a bit of a misunderstanding on your part. I don’t mean any offense, but that doesn’t sound very Catholic.

Heaven would be all the more brilliant and wonderful if every human whose ever lived was up there. However, many people chose not to live in the light, and so they cannot go to Heaven, because their sins are an affront to God and they cannot bear to stand in His presence. Their sins exclude them as naturally as gravity excludes me from flight.

that is why the thought of me going to Hell not only terrifies me but also seems very unlikely as well.

No one ever really wants to consider the possibility that they are going to Hell, not really. Even those who joke of it flippantly have likely never actually considered what that means.

I personally Hope for Heaven, but recognize that many of the behaviors I frequently fall into are leading me to Hell. It is not a comforting thought, which is kind of the point…

I pray that I will die in a state of grace and be purified, even if I have to stay in Purgatory till the end of time.
I want to be with God, I’m just really bad at showing it.

 

[oliver109]

If you think about it God could arrange the world to be one where everybody accepts God in the end, whether it be after a life of sin or a life of holiness, the reality is that God has arranged the world where many fail to repent and end up in Hell, this is Gods intention, that not everyone is saved which is why we have such beings as the reprobate. St Thomas Aquinas wrote about how the presence of souls in Hell will be beneficial for the elect " Nothing should be denied the blessed that belongs to the perfection of their beatitude. Now everything is [known] the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the [happiness] of the [saints] may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned."

 

[ProdglArchitect]

If you think about it God could arrange the world to be one where everybody accepts God in the end, whether it be after a life of sin or a life of holiness, the reality is that God has arranged the world where many fail to repent and end up in Hell, this is Gods intention, that not everyone is saved which is why we have such beings as the reprobate.

This is not Catholic teaching.

The only way to ensure 100% that everyone will accept God is to violate free will, which He will not do. As long as free will is intact, and we have the ability to choose Him, it is necessary that the potential exist to choose against Him. As long as that potential exists, it is impossible to guarantee that no one will choose it.

God created the world to be perfect for us, He didn’t intend for us to sin. But we went and screwed it up, and now we suffer the consequences.

That’s all I have time for today, sorry.

God bless!

 

[TheLittleLady]

God works miracles. I would not be shocked to find that God has protected many of us from dying but we never knew it.

 

[TheLittleLady]

That makes me think that perhaps God is not anxious about saving souls from Hell

While God cannot be anxious, God cares so much about saving souls from Hell (we say it every Sunday, but maybe do not think about these words)

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.

Think about that. There is an old Gospel song that says:

He left the splendor of Glory
Knowing his destiny
Was a lonely hill called Golgotha
Where he poured out his life for me

And if that isn’t love
There’s no sun in the sky
The ocean is dry
And the sparrows can’t fly
If that isn’t love
Then heaven’s a myth
There’s no feeling like this
If that isn’t love

 

[oliver109]

I agree that God cares very much about saving souls from Hell, it is that he is not under pressure to save all souls, that he is basically passive when it comes to our lives. Why does he not intervene when we are doing something wrong like when St Paul was doing something wrong on the road to Damascus? I am sure that if God did not personally show Saul the right way he would have gone on to Hell.