Does God violate our free will by making us die

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Not entitled but rather I was talking about God respecting our liberty because we are told every Sunday that he does.

Okay, you’re obviously very upset and I feel like you’re trying to get at something, so I’m really not messing with you , just trying to figure it out.

Yes, we have liberty, and yes, we can make choices, but that doesn’t mean we have unlimited freedom with omnipotence to do anything we want .
Like, we can’t fly or time travel backward or be immortal.
But we do have choices within boundaries.

 

[oliver109]

There are a number of things I am upset about in life but I will leave them to other threads I may wish to create, but I would say that being told every Sunday that Hell is an easy place to end up in does not exactly lead to me being happy and carefree(like I was in my teenage years when I was an atheist)

 

[John_Martin]

my own father and mother have a lot more mercy.

And if you die before you knock on the door to your parents’ house, you miss your mother’s welcome, no matter how merciful she is. Do you blame her because you died before you changed your mind to give up your prodigal ways?

 

[John_Martin]

being told every Sunday that Hell is an easy place to end up in does not exactly lead to me being happy and carefree(

Odd; doesn’t your priest encourage you in your effort to fulfill the sermon on the mount, to be light and salt to enlighten and preserve the world, and give you strength with the Body and Blood of our Lord - we are supposed to mature to do our service, not constantly need to be figuring out how to reconcile with our Lord.

 

[snarflemike]

being told every Sunday that Hell is an easy place to end up in does not exactly lead to me being happy and carefree

Then find another church, seriously. I might hear “Hell is an easy place to end up” once every 5 or 10 years. If you’re hearing it 52 times a year, find another church.

 

[John10]

God’s mercy is infinite, however even God has limits, he will not tolerate that we commit mortal sin forever. Each time we do so, we are playing with fire.

Jesus warned us to those who think they can outsmart God, not knowing for certain when we will die actually forces us to always be good.

The Bible records people dying immediately after committing a mortal sin for example:

"Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!.
On hearing these words, Ananias fell down and died. And great fear came over all who heard what had happened.” Acts 5:4 - 5

“But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect.” Matthew 24: 44 - 45

 

[thistle]

It is still not our choice to die however!

So what!! You mean you are miffed at God because one day you will die?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Fair enough.

I’m sorry your priest harps so much on Hell. In all likelihood, he just really doesn’t want any of his congregation to wind up there

Life is a challenge, and the spiritual life is really a challenge. Death can be really scary to contemplate. And overwhelming.

My own wee testimony is that there’s no real use to get upset that death is a thing or that actions have consequences.
I was fortunate enough to have a moral theology teacher who was able to break down the morality of a particular action by philosophy, and how the real world consequences of immoral choices hurt everybody.
If you were to prove today that there was no God, I would still hold my same moral code.

You may have said upthread, but where are you religiously? I mean do you believe that there is a God? Do you believe in God the way Catholics understand Him? Or something else?

 

[oliver109]

In a sense yes I am a bit upset that God will force me to remain anchored to a potentially bad choice, it was not called for(the anchoring I mean, not the bad choice)

 

[thistle]

In a sense yes I am a bit upset that God will force me to remain anchored to a potentially bad choice, it was not called for(the anchoring I mean, not the bad choice)

The choice is yours to commit mortal sin and die unrepentant. It seems you want to be free to commit mortal sins without consequences.
God gives you that choice to reject him permanently or not.

 

[oliver109]

What is the point of having consequences as in real eternal punishment? God is justice but is also mercy and would not take pleasure in seeing a soul bored out of it’s mind at the endless nothingness of Hell, of course he could simply not separate the sinful soul from it’s body unless that sinful soul asks God to die and to remain in sin.

 

[thistle]

What is the point of having consequences as in real eternal punishment? God is justice but is also mercy and would not take pleasure in seeing a soul bored out of it’s mind at the endless nothingness of Hell, of course he could simply not separate the sinful soul from it’s body unless that sinful soul asks God to die and to remain in sin.

God gave us all freewill. YOU have the choice to spend eternity in Hell or in Heaven.
God is mercy when you truly repent for your sins and ask him for mercy.
It seems pretty clear from all your posts that you want God to bend to your will as you don’t want to do his.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

It might help to reframe some of this:

God is Creator.
He loves us
He knows what will prosper us and what will harm us.
Sin harms us.
And so, He hates sin.
He hates it so much that Jesus came to rescue us from it.
When we sin, we turn our back on God, not the other way around.
And He rejoices when we come back.

He’s not up there in Heaven playing a cosmic game of “gotcha”. That’s a projection that we put on Him because humans play mean tricks on each other all the time.

 

[Gorgias]

we should only die if we are ready to die otherwise we should never die.

Why is this reasonable? You’re human – that means that you have physical parts. Physical parts wear out, get damaged, stop working. Why should you think that you get to ‘choose’ how this happens?

I still think that it is cruel for God to separate a soul from it’s body

He doesn’t. It’s a natural part of the process of physical death. In fact, what God does do is to give us a glorified body in the eschaton!

So by your logic only the good should die at all, much less young.

Apparently, Bill Joel got it right…

Of course I am a Catholic but I do not see Heaven as a reward, rather a place where one can go when they are at peace with God.

OK, then, let’s take your question in the opposite direction. When you’re at peace with God, should you have the ‘choice’ to end your life?

What I argue is based largely on feelings but also based on the scriptural passage where Christ said we should forgive 70x70 times.

That kinda hurts your argument, though. God forgives always, when we repent. So, the “I shouldn’t die now, since I’m in mortal sin” doesn’t really hold up – we should just repent, go to confession, and be forgiven! No worries then!

It is our choice to commit the sin but it is not our choice to die after commiting it.

So… we get to choose actions, but we should be exempt from their consequences? That doesn’t sound particularly just…

there really does appear to be a limit to the number of sins we can commit before he chooses not to forgive us.

Umm… no. There’s no limit. Every time you go to confession, if you’re contrite, you’ll be forgiven. Period. Full stop.

simply because God separated their soul from their body at a bad moment

God decided to remove the soul from their body

Nope. You’re confusing God with the ancient Greek notion of the “Fates”, who decided how long a person should live, and who caused them to die when they decided it was time. As Catholics, that’s not part of our belief system. God doesn’t sit there with a big calendar and say, “yep… Gorgias has precisely 27.5 hours left – sure hope he repents today!”

What is the point of having consequences as in real eternal punishment?

What is the point in having free will if our actions have no consequences?

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

Free will means that you are free to accept God’s love (will), or reject it. It does not mean that you are free to do what you want, when you want, nor does it mean that you and others are free from the consequences of your choices.

 

[Elf01]

I was fortunate enough to have a moral theology teacher who was able to break down the morality of a particular action by philosophy, and how the real world consequences of immoral choices hurt everybody.

Possibly off topic but if there are resources that are available I’d be interested in them.

 

[Vico]

I still think that it is cruel for God to separate a soul from it’s body if it is in a state of sin and it’s only destination can be Hell, I feel extremely fortunate that it has not happened to me despite sinning a lot.

Are you assuming that God does not know if a person would eventually repent if given more time and has no influence in a person’s time of death?

 

[oliver109]

I think when one is at peace with God then that would be the ideal time to die and yes one could ask God there and then to welcome them back to his kingdom. Death is natural but God can preserve a body in life as long as he wants no?

 

[TheLittleLady]

“right your time is up now go to Hell because you have failed to repent in the time I have given you”

What is said is “Now, you are dead. I respect the decision you made to reject me and will not force you to spend eternity in my presence”.

Mortal sin is rejection of God’s mercy.

this is the idea that St Alphonsus Liguori had when he wrote about God not pardoning sinners after they have committed a certain number of sins,

Could you tell me in what book he said this?

Assuming the quote is correct, this means that St Liguori was wrong. Saints are not impeccable, they make mistakes, they sinned (and repented), they have opinions that are wrong.

in reality there really does appear to be a limit to the number of sins we can commit before he chooses not to forgive us

This is contrary to Church teaching.

 

[oliver109]

And who is it that makes that person dead? it can only be God. the writings of St Liguori are here: On the Number of Sins Beyond Which God Pardons No More - Sermon by St. Alphonsus