Does Islam have a definition of sin?

[Sister_Amy]

Vickie

:tsktsk: How many times must we go over this? Really, again? Please. The fact that you had to go to an Islam-bashing site to find such an article is proof enough.

Problems with so-called honor killings are

(1) Murder – forbidden
(2) No court trial – injust (the woman isn’t tried in court, justkilled based on suspicion)
(3) No valid proof to accuse the woman
(4) Unjust application–if a woman is guilty of something so is a man.

Have you been able to find an Islamic scholar that actually approves of honor killing? A real scholar, by the way, not some punk on youtube. Try actual Islamic sites. Try sunnipath, islamqa, islamonline, islamicity. Go look.

 

[iaskquestions]

Read Genesis 3. Eve is the **deceitful one **who listens to Satan and then tempts her husband.

She was not deceitful, but she was deceived. She just happened to be a woman. It could have been possible for even Adam to be deceived first. But the fact remains that Eve happened to be the one. It could have also happened the other way, but history chose that course.

According to Genesis, Adam actually blames his wife for his sin!

Yes, he does. And Christianity has always accused him of blaming his wife rather than accepting his own fault. Eve does the same thing. She blames the serpent instead of accepting her fault.

Look at this: To the woman he said,
“I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

If Adam had been the first to sin, God would have probably said, “Your desire shall be for your wife and she shall rule over you.” But as I said, it just happened that way.

God pronounced a greater curse on Adam,

"And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; **in toil you shall eat **of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
**In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread **till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:17-19)

I am a woman… I don’t know if you are. But it was always clear to me that there was a bias against women in the Bible, that they were considered deceitful and inherently evil because of Eve who ate of the tree.

Please show me the references so that I may know what exactly you’re talking about. I don’t think Christianity is gender-biased.

 

[inJESUS]

Actually, there is no distinction in Islam between the sin of Adam and the sin of Eve. They both

sinned. And they both repented. And they were both forgiven. both are guilty fine, but you are saying they sinned and Islam does not teach that prophets sin but make mistakes.

There is a major distinction between the Christian view of Eve vs. the Muslim one. While Islam blames each individual for their own sin, it seems like all of mankind is doomed because of Eve, and Eve is specifically blamed and smeared in the Bible, isn’t she? Whereas in Islam both are responsible for their sin, both repent, both forgiven.

 

[inJESUS]

And a list of other sins made by some of the Prophets. We call them minor sins or you can call them grievous errors but I’ll call them minor sins because that’s what the scholars call them. So don’t believe me, but believe these scholars of Islam who know much more than I do.

if disobeing Allah is a minor sin according to scholars, what is the major sin when a sin by definition is disobeying God?

 

[Sister_Amy]

From the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible, which states it more succinctly than I have.

God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. Gen. 3:16

Adam is also punished, although less severely. He now will have to work for a living because he “hearkened unto the voice” of his wife. Gen. 3:17

Women in the Bible

In 1 Corinthians:

Paul would prefer that no one marry. but he says “to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife.” 7:1-2

Paul says “the head of the woman is the man,” meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 11:3

Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 11:7-9

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that “if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church.” 14:34-35

Ephesians:

Wives must submit to their husbands “in every thing” as though they were Christ. “For the husband is the head of the wife.” 5:22-24

1 Timothy

“Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” 2:11-12

Men are superior to women since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But even though women are inferior to men, they shouldn’t be discouraged because they shall “be saved in childbearing.” 2:14-15

 

[Sister_Amy]

both are guilty fine, but you are saying they sinned and Islam does not teach that prophets sin but make mistakes.

 

[Sister_Amy]

if disobeing Allah is a minor sin according to scholars, what is the major sin when a sin by definition is disobeying God?

This was another class… what constitutes a “major sin.” There are some categories but it’s in my notes. I only remember the summarized version I usually share with people but I’ve a feeling you wouldn’t settle for that.

 

[inJESUS]

Paul says “the head of the woman is the man,” meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 11:3

 

[inJESUS]

Must be the one I learned in church.

 

[inJESUS]

This was another class… what constitutes a “major sin.” There are some categories but it’s in my notes. I only remember the summarized version I usually share with people but I’ve a feeling you wouldn’t settle for that.

am asking a simple logical question Amy. Is there a worse sin than disobeying God? if not, then how can Adam’s sin be called minor?

 

[Booklover]

:tsktsk: How many times must we go over this? Really, again? Please. The fact that you had to go to an Islam-bashing site to find such an article is proof enough.

Problems with so-called honor killings are

(1) Murder – forbidden
(2) No court trial – injust (the woman isn’t tried in court, justkilled based on suspicion)
(3) No valid proof to accuse the woman
(4) Unjust application–if a woman is guilty of something so is a man.

Have you been able to find an Islamic scholar that actually approves of honor killing? A real scholar, by the way, not some punk on youtube. Try actual Islamic sites. Try sunnipath, islamqa, islamonline, islamicity. Go look.

Ok, here’s the answer from Islamqa:
Ruling on honour killings
I would like to know what the ruling on Honor killings would be and how it should be punished acording to the Laws of the Shariat.

Praise be to Allaah.

Killing a Muslim unlawfully is a serious matter and a grave crime. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of Allaah are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him”
[al-Nisa’ 4:93]
al-Bukhaari (6355) narrated from Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The believer will continue to be encompassed by the mercy of Allaah so long **as he does not shed blood that it is forbidden to shed.” **

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has explained to us the reasons for which it becomes permissible to shed this blood. He said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life (murder), zina of one of who is previously-married (adultery), and the one who changes his religion and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6370) and Muslim (3175). From this it is clear that zina on the part of one who is married is one of the reasons that make it permissible to kill a person, but the zaani (adulterer) cannot be killed unless two conditions are met:
-1-
He should be previously-married. The scholars have explained what is meant by previously-married in this case. Zakariya al-Ansaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in Asna’l-Mataalib (4/128): The previously-married person, whether male or female, is any adult of sound mind who has previously had intercourse within a valid marriage. End quote. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Sharh al-Zaad (6/120): There are five conditions for (being described as) previously-married:
1- Intercourse
2- Within a valid marriage
3- Being an adult
4- Being of sound reason
5- Being free (i.e., not a slave).
End quote.
-2-
The second condition is that it should be proven that the hadd punishment is deserved, by the testimony of four male witnesses who saw the private parts meet, or the person should freely admit to having committed zina, without being forced to do so.
If it is proven that he deserves the hadd punishment, it is not permissible for individuals to carry out this punishment themselves. Rather the matter must be referred to the ruler or his deputy to prove the crime and carry out the punishment, because if individuals carry out hadd punishments, that will lead to a great deal of corruption and evil.
Ibn Muflih al-Hanbali (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Furoo’ (6/53): It is haraam for anyone to carry out a hadd punishment except the ruler or his deputy. This is something on which the fuqaha’ of Islam are unanimously agreed, as was stated in al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (5/280): The fuqaha’ are unanimously agreed that the one who should carry out hadd punishments is the ruler or his deputy, whether the punishment is transgressing one of the limits of Allaah, may He be exalted, such as zina, or a transgression against another person, such as slander. End quote.
Concealing one who has committed this evil deed so that he may repent and set his affairs straight before he dies is better than exposing him, let alone killing him. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned away from Maa’iz (may Allaah be pleased with him) after he admitted committing zina, and he ignored him until he had repeated his confession several times, then he carried out the hadd punishment on him.
**Based on this, that which is called “honour killing” is a transgression and wrongdoing, because it is killing one who does not deserve to be killed, namely the virgin if she commits zina (fornication), but the shar’i punishment in her case is flogging and banishment for one year, not execution, **because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “(The punishment for zina) of a virgin with a virgin person is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.” Narrated by Muslim. The one who kills her has killed a believing soul whom Allaah has forbidden to be killed, and there is a stern warning concerning that, as Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse ___ and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.
69. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace”
[al-Furqaan 25:68-69]
Even if we assume that she deserves to be executed (if she was previously-married and committed zina), no one should do that but the ruler – as stated above. Moreover, in many cases killing is done on the basis of accusations and speculation, without proving whether the immoral action even took place.
And Allaah knows best.

Anybody else find this answer confusing?

 

[inJESUS]

Vicky, the killing per se is not prohibited…but must be done according to rules…a man cannot kill his daughter (married) if she is fornicating, a ruler must do it and proof must be presented…if she is not married, it is one year confinement and flogging. So honour killing is adultry punishment, but is not accepted because the person doing it is not meeting the criteria that must be met, namely presenting witnesses and allowing the ruler to excecute the killing.

 

[Ted_in_Charlott]

I think that the definition of “major” sin and “mortal” sin are going to be pretty close if we line them up.

Amy, doesn’t Islam recognize Moses and the 10 commandments? As a follow up, would not those commandments be a good “basis” for the definition of “major” sin in Islam?

Thanks

 

[Verisimilitude]

Anything that disagrees with Mohammed is a sin in Islam.

 

[cathopologist]

There is a major distinction between the Christian view of Eve vs. the Muslim one. While Islam blames each individual for their own sin, it seems like all of mankind is doomed because of Eve, and Eve is specifically blamed and smeared in the Bible, isn’t she? Whereas in Islam both are responsible for their sin, both repent, both forgiven.

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." - Romans 5:12
I understand you were once a Catholic? And if you were, i doubt you truly read your Bible or even understood what it teaches.

Women have the same spiritual worth in Islam, the same spiritual obligations, except that they actually get a break, and have a ligher burden regarding some religious obligations. Some scholars have even mentioned that this is because women are spiritually superior to men. In that they have greater comprehension of spirituality because of their nature.

How many women “saints” (apart from Aisha) are there in Islam if they consider their spiritual worthiness as important as that of the Catholic Church?

 

[Sister_Amy]

am asking a simple logical question Amy. Is there a worse sin than disobeying God? if not, then how can Adam’s sin be called minor?

All sins are disobeying God. Aren’t they?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think that the definition of “major” sin and “mortal” sin are going to be pretty close if we line them up.

Amy, doesn’t Islam recognize Moses and the 10 commandments? As a follow up, would not those commandments be a good “basis” for the definition of “major” sin in Islam?

Thanks

I don’t know the definition of a “mortal” sin. The 10 Commandments… yeah more or less that’s a guideline, but in Islam there is not a specific determination of what is a major and minor sin.

Basically (summarized version here) what makes a major sin is one where Allah promised a punishment either in this life for it, or in the next life. For example… adultery is a major sin, with a punishment in this life. Backbiting (not in 10 commandments btw) is a major sin, with a punishment in the next life. There are also some lists in hadith for example which say ‘these are major sins…’ and classify them as such.

 

[Sister_Amy]

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." - Romans 5:12
I understand you were once a Catholic? And if you were, i doubt you truly read your Bible or even understood what it teaches.

No I wasn’t Catholic, and yes I did read my Bible. Still do. Undoubtedly, I did not interpret it or understand it the same way you do. But I don’t want you to think I was ever a Catholic, as I was not, and it’d be misleading to let you continue to think otherwise.

How many women “saints” (apart from Aisha) are there in Islam if they consider their spiritual worthiness as important as that of the Catholic Church?

Okay, someone is probably about to jump out of the woodwork and call me a crazy wahhabi salafi person but listen. There aren’t “saints” in Islam. No male saints, no female saints. Not in the way I understand the word at all.

There are prophets, and there are righteous people. There are four women in Islam who are guaranteed Paradise–only two during Muhammad’s lifetime. Mary comes first, and Asiya who was the daughter of Pharaoh (raised Moses.) The other two are Fatima and Khadeeja. Muhammad’s wives are all called the ‘Mothers of the Believers’ indicating their rank and piety, and the honor which should be shown to them. There are many other well-known pious, righteous women in Islam, including the first martyr in Islam, Sumayyah. I wouldn’t call any of them saints though.

 

[inJESUS]

All sins are disobeying God. Aren’t they?

exactly. Adam disobeyed God. Mind you, we are talking about a man you consider a prophet, and who spoke directly with God yet disobeyed Him. How is that called a minor sin? what is worse than talking directly to God yet disobeying Him? obviously the man sinned a grave sin and the consequence was terrible : banishment, strife, enmity ecc.

 

[cathopologist]

No I wasn’t Catholic, and yes I did read my Bible. Still do. Undoubtedly, I did not interpret it or understand it the same way you do. But I don’t want you to think I was ever a Catholic, as I was not, and it’d be misleading to let you continue to think otherwise.

Fair enough. I misread your post. But you were a Christian (of an unknown denomination), weren’t you? I just want to know so i know where you are coming from.

There are prophets, and there are righteous people. There are four women in Islam who are guaranteed Paradise–only two during Muhammad’s lifetime. Mary comes first, and Asiya who was the daughter of Pharaoh (raised Moses.) The other two are Fatima and Khadeeja. Muhammad’s wives are all called the ‘Mothers of the Believers’ indicating their rank and piety, and the honor which should be shown to them. There are many other well-known pious, righteous women in Islam, including the first martyr in Islam, Sumayyah. I wouldn’t call any of them saints though.

Alright. So according to you, there are no saints in Islam. But they do hold 4 women in Islam with high esteem, and one of them happens to be Miriam (why? Because Mohammad thinks he will marry her?).

Anyway, the Catholic Church has hundreds of women we regard as saints. Far, far more than the Muslim claim of “honoring women in Islam”. Why doesn’t Islam elevate the status of women as Catholics do, since Islam considers women as “spiritually superior than men”? Also, if i remember correctly, there was a Muslimah who became a cleric and that caused quite a controversy amongst fellow Muslims, because they felt a Muslimah cannot or rather should not instruct men or be leaders of a flock. Your reply to this would be most appreciated.